Can you run a COBB stg3 tune without a Downpipe?

[jeff]

It sounds like for some a DP could be useful then. I enjoy low end power and being able to roast the tires when I want to. Right now I feel like it could use some more "down low", but I'm with the others, maybe when I have nothing else to upgrade...

I agree there is some fun factor to it, but after awhile you realize that you can never floor the car without it going crazy. That means you have a sportyish car that you've modded to go fast....but you can't floor it in 1st or 2nd gear without wasting your tires, drawing attention to yourself, and torque steering all over the place. When I went stage 1 (before bracing) I enjoyed the new power but found myself staying out of WOT because of the mess it made. Not to mention tires are expensive.

Since then I have found the perfect setup for my needs - the combo of stage 2+ power with the right bracing underneath allows me floor it in 1st or 2nd or any gear and move very quickly in a mostly straight line.

 

[nickstewartroc]

I do have to agree with you there, one of my previous cars was a 2010 Fusion Sport. Tune and intake netted spinning the wheels up to 3rd gear! Was fun at first, but got sick of it.

 

[jeff]

I do have to agree with you there, one of my previous cars was a 2010 Fusion Sport. Tune and intake netted spinning the wheels up to 3rd gear! Was fun at first, but got sick of it.

That's the thing. After the initial "holy crap there's more torque now" when I went stage 1 I found myself waiting till 3rd gear to floor it. I'd pepper it in 1st and 2nd trying not to spin the tires. Real off the line acceleration wasn't possible without fighting the car. Then in 3rd gear I could finally go WOT. After a while of that I was sort of thinking "wow this is disappointing, I have this fast car and can't go fast without all these side effects." I love the small turbo of the FiST and the low end power - it matches the car's personality. To me the perfect setup is lots of low end kick but kick that is useable - followed by consistent smooth power to redline. Recently going stage 2+ has brought tons of new power and torque; the car feels like my STi did. Adding braces has removed most of the tire spin. Power does taper off but not until 5,000 rpm or so. By then I'm ready to shift - no need to redline every time.

So now I find myself flooring it in 1st and 2nd again and really enjoying what this car can do. It feels perfect on the street, which is where I intend on driving it 100% of the time. I'm not chasing big numbers, just the optimal street setup for this car.

All of this logic factored in to my decision against stage 3 as I'd originally planned. Right now the car feels perfect - the right amount of engine bolt-ons and suspension bracing working together very nicely.

 

[Butterybunz]

Unless you're upgrading the turbo the stock downpipe is sufficient. IMO it is not worth the time/money to upgrade the downpipe with the tiny turbo we have. Stick to stage 2 mods with e30 and your maxing out the turbo as it is. Also, if your car breaks it's much easier to go back to stock for a warranty claim if you don't have to put back on the stock downpipe

 

[Joker328]

Ok, raising boost increasea EGT I get it, hence burn out stock cat. So how does Adams tune create more power without some level of boost increase that doesnt create more heat. Not being a douche I just have never heard of DP not helping performance in a turbo car.

The reality is it probably does create more heat. Assuming for arguments sake that a Stage 1 tune is maximizing performance (on 93oct) with a reasonable margin of safety for the parts and that power is not being limited by flow on either end (intake or DP/exhaust), the only way to increase performance is to tune it more aggressively (higher boost, advanced timing). This will create more heat in the cylinder (so higher risk of knock/pre-ignition) and the CAT/exhaust, and increase stress on the turbo. If the tune doesn't dial everything back when temps climb, all of this will reduce your margin of safety on the parts, increasing risk of failure. The tune can pull boost and timing if temps get too high, but then you won't see the full benefit of the tune on a stock car. You can get back the margin of safety and the potential to take advantage of the higher end tune through cooling (i.e. FMIC) or adding parts that are equipped to deal with the heat and stress (i.e. DP).

I don't think Cobb or anyone else is arguing that a DP alone is going to increase performance much on a Stock or Stage 1 tune. What they are implicitly saying is that it is not safe to run their Stage 3 tune without a DP that can handle the temps it is capable of producing. In reality, you would probably see a similar performance increase from a Stage 3 tune on a car with a stock DP as one with a Cobb or other aftermarket DP. In fact, I imagine Adam's Stage 1-2 tunes may be equally or even more aggressive than Cobb's Stage 3 tune and you may see a stock car on his tune outperform a Stage 3 car on Cobb's tune. This is probably why he is not able to get anything more out of a DP, because the tune is already maxing out the capability of the turbo. The question is how much increased stress is a tune like that putting on the stock CAT (and possibly the turbo) and how much do you care about that? Nobody is going to tell you this, and probably nobody really knows for sure. Clearly a lot of people have concluded that the risk is worth it for the performance, and that's fine. At the end of the day, the worst that happens is you melt your CAT and buy a new DP, but if the stock one holds up, you saved yourself some money.

 

[madfiesta14]

Um, what 'snake oil' talk? A turbo is the biggest restriction in an exhaust, but freeing up the air path before/after it can definitively produce gains depending on the OEM design of the parts.

As in stock DP is fine with stock turbo, not saying it adds 20 HP. But it all adds up to a great driving experience. Turbo spool, throttle response. My lightweight flywheel yeah it only freed up a few HP but improved driving experience greatly.

 

[commonplatypus]

My firm belief is that people primarily get the DP (and supporting mods like intakes) so they can say they are "Stage 3". This works for most people because it is a linear and clear path to what they want; which is more performance without having to scour forums for information on what is and isn't the best bang for their buck. It doesn't matter if it doesn't do much for them because they're never going to notice anyways and many will never bother finding out whether or not it did as the butt dyno will be enough for them.

I also believe that from an individual modder (Not following stage packages strictly) that a DP makes sense only for someone who is trying to get every bit of performance out of their car they can. It doesn't matter how small.

At the end of the day I'm stopping mods at the intercooler until I go BT personally. I've hit MBT on the car and can't do much of anything else until that problem is either solved (Ford's calibrations are absurdly good for MBT however and this isn't likely. Going beyond MBT isn't advised.) or I put on the bigger turbo. I could run e30 once Stratified finishes that tune and that will help a bit, but it is also a hassle for me to deal with and I'm lazy. I just want to get my 93 and drive mostly.

In conclusion; downpipes DO work. The question is whether or not it works and works well ENOUGH for you. For some, myself included, they do not.

You do get some sweet pops and burbles, though.

 

[WeTheNorth]

The reality is it probably does create more heat. Assuming for arguments sake that a Stage 1 tune is maximizing performance (on 93oct) with a reasonable margin of safety for the parts and that power is not being limited by flow on either end (intake or DP/exhaust), the only way to increase performance is to tune it more aggressively (higher boost, advanced timing). This will create more heat in the cylinder (so higher risk of knock/pre-ignition) and the CAT/exhaust, and increase stress on the turbo. If the tune doesn't dial everything back when temps climb, all of this will reduce your margin of safety on the parts, increasing risk of failure. The tune can pull boost and timing if temps get too high, but then you won't see the full benefit of the tune on a stock car. You can get back the margin of safety and the potential to take advantage of the higher end tune through cooling (i.e. FMIC) or adding parts that are equipped to deal with the heat and stress (i.e. DP).

I don't think Cobb or anyone else is arguing that a DP alone is going to increase performance much on a Stock or Stage 1 tune. What they are implicitly saying is that it is not safe to run their Stage 3 tune without a DP that can handle the temps it is capable of producing. In reality, you would probably see a similar performance increase from a Stage 3 tune on a car with a stock DP as one with a Cobb or other aftermarket DP. In fact, I imagine Adam's Stage 1-2 tunes may be equally or even more aggressive than Cobb's Stage 3 tune and you may see a stock car on his tune outperform a Stage 3 car on Cobb's tune. This is probably why he is not able to get anything more out of a DP, because the tune is already maxing out the capability of the turbo. The question is how much increased stress is a tune like that putting on the stock CAT (and possibly the turbo) and how much do you care about that? Nobody is going to tell you this, and probably nobody really knows for sure. Clearly a lot of people have concluded that the risk is worth it for the performance, and that's fine. At the end of the day, the worst that happens is you melt your CAT and buy a new DP, but if the stock one holds up, you saved yourself some money.

Very well said sir, Adam says a dp won't get ya much but I completely agree with you. It's not all about numbers, it's about balancing heat dispersion/cooling. I recently had a friend go from stage 1 to 3 and he said he's felt absolutely zero difference in the quickness of the car but I'm sure the driveability has improved. I have yet to install my stage 2/3 parts but with what I have the car is not drive able in the rain as it is and in the dry I can spin the first two gears. So, it all depends on what the owner truly wants. Like the person before me said, the pops and burbles may be enough for some, including myself

 

[jeff]

Very well said sir, Adam says a dp won't get ya much but I completely agree with you. It's not all about numbers, it's about balancing heat dispersion/cooling. I recently had a friend go from stage 1 to 3 and he said he's felt absolutely zero difference in the quickness of the car but I'm sure the driveability has improved. I have yet to install my stage 2/3 parts but with what I have the car is not drive able in the rain as it is and in the dry I can spin the first two gears. So, it all depends on what the owner truly wants. Like the person before me said, the pops and burbles may be enough for some, including myself

A bit off topic here but I just added a FMIC and flashed stage 2 and there is surely a very noticeable difference. In fact, if you look at Cobb's numbers (via Smoking Tire dynos at various stages) and from the butt dyno, the difference from stage 1 to 2 is greater than the difference from stock to stage 1. Stage 2 to 3 is the one where only a small difference happens (7HP, 15TQ), though all the new noise from the exhaust probably creates placebo that makes people think the car has more new power than it really does. So I'm not sure how your friend could say that unless his other car is a Hellcat or something.

On another note, get a Pierce front lower chassis brace and your wheel spin will be mostly mitigated.

 

[AzNightmare]

On another note, get a Pierce front lower chassis brace and your wheel spin will be mostly mitigated.

How much better does 1st and 2nd gear feel with the lower brace?
Seems like they make 2, 4, and 6 point braces. Which one are you referring to?
I might be interested in this since my tires are spinning already in 1st and 2nd at stage 1.

 

[jeff]

How much better does 1st and 2nd gear feel with the lower brace?
Seems like they make 2, 4, and 6 point braces. Which one are you referring to?
I might be interested in this since my tires are spinning already in 1st and 2nd at stage 1.

Definitely get the brace, it makes a real difference. Read my review here and all your questions will be answered:

http://www.fiestastforum.com/forum/...t-lower-chassis-brace-rear-torsion-bar-A-mods

 

[GateCityRadio]

A bit off topic here but I just added a FMIC and flashed stage 2 and there is surely a very noticeable difference. In fact, if you look at Cobb's numbers (via Smoking Tire dynos at various stages) and from the butt dyno, the difference from stage 1 to 2 is greater than the difference from stock to stage 1. Stage 2 to 3 is the one where only a small difference happens (7HP, 15TQ), though all the new noise from the exhaust probably creates placebo that makes people think the car has more new power than it really does. So I'm not sure how your friend could say that unless his other car is a Hellcat or something.

On another note, get a Pierce front lower chassis brace and your wheel spin will be mostly mitigated.

How much better does 1st and 2nd gear feel with the lower brace?
Seems like they make 2, 4, and 6 point braces. Which one are you referring to?
I might be interested in this since my tires are spinning already in 1st and 2nd at stage 1.

I have the pierce 4pt brace, bc coilovers, and cobb RMM and at stock and stage 1 power levels this combination eliminated wheel hop and helped a lot with off the line traction...until I went stage 3 and now there is no traction to be had in 1st or 2nd wot. That might have something to do with the stock tires though. I'm about to have a cyborg turbo and a pro tune so I'm curious if anything will change.

 

[AzNightmare]

Definitely get the brace, it makes a real difference. Read my review here and all your questions will be answered:

http://www.fiestastforum.com/forum/...t-lower-chassis-brace-rear-torsion-bar-A-mods

Does this come with any instructions on how to install it?

 

[jeff]

I have the pierce 4pt brace, bc coilovers, and cobb RMM and at stock and stage 1 power levels this combination eliminated wheel hop and helped a lot with off the line traction...until I went stage 3 and now there is no traction to be had in 1st or 2nd wot. That might have something to do with the stock tires though. I'm about to have a cyborg turbo and a pro tune so I'm curious if anything will change.

Reason #5 why I didn't go downpipe/stage 3....how much money are we spending to accommodate all the low range torque/wheel spin that these mods bring? Spend ~$900 on a turboback and then spend $500 more on tires to help handle the power and $300 more on a tune to limit the power that the turboback gives so I can floor it again and not burn out my tires and skip all over the road? No thanks.

Heck since we're talking about it, here are my reasons for NOT doing DP/exhaust/"stage 3":

1. A lot of money for few HP
2. Hard to return to stock
3. Noise I don't want (exhaust)
4. Install is PITA for normal people, not worth the trouble for a few HP
5. Continues to contribute to lost traction in 1st and 2nd

Does this come with any instructions on how to install it?

Read my thread that you linked, I spoke in detail about the install and the lack of instructions.

 

[frankiefiesta]

I have the pierce 4pt brace, bc coilovers, and cobb RMM and at stock and stage 1 power levels this combination eliminated wheel hop and helped a lot with off the line traction...until I went stage 3 and now there is no traction to be had in 1st or 2nd wot. That might have something to do with the stock tires though. I'm about to have a cyborg turbo and a pro tune so I'm curious if anything will change.

Just got my car back yesterday. Had the cyborg dyno tuned. They're still hammering it out but they let me take the car back and it is safe to drive and go WOT. Different topic but only reason I took the car back before tune was completely done is because I need the car to get to the airport next week for a trip.

Back to the subject, cyborg is great. The car has something up top now! The noise coming from the external wastegate is addicting

 

[dyn085]

I like how this one thread has gone from snake oil to too little of a gain to too much tire shredding in under 40 posts. That's solid progress.

 

[jeff]

I like how this one thread has gone from snake oil to too little of a gain to too much tire shredding in under 40 posts. That's solid progress.

Not snake oil...
Little gains in HP...
Tire shredding because of gains in TQ...

Don't forget it also evolved into a discussion on a cyborg setup!

 

[dyn085]

That's only because we have a hard time staying on topic. We roll loose and hard here.

Either way, it's pretty well-established that the best price/performance setup on the OEM turbo is FMIC, DP or CBE (depending on whom you're talking to) and an E30/E40 tune. No hard parts are really 'mandatory', it all depends on how much you want to over-boost the life out of the turbo and how good your temperature compensations can compensate for the heat. If you want longevity you add the parts but if not then just crank the boost and go. Lean it to hell and watch the dyno numbers grow!

Now we may as well discuss stance and our favorite flavor of pancakes.

 

[WeTheNorth]

Idk but after installing my downpipe I for sure feel like the turbo spools with less hesitation, happy I got it!

 

[Kip2MyLou]

Idk but after installing my downpipe I for sure feel like the turbo spools with less hesitation, happy I got it!

Think it's more of a butt dyno benefit than actual numbers benefit. But as long as you're happy with it, that's all that matters!