Can you run a COBB stg3 tune without a Downpipe?

[twolf]

Which was exactly my point but no one was willing to listen or care to look at it that way. Less boost + less heat = less strain on an engine which equates to more power. Its a simple equation.



And like i said before he sounds like a stand up guy and a hell of a tuner but nothing but an "opinion"

On the other hand, I do believe he posted dyno charts (but I don't care enough to go dig through the thread, and I have nothing to gain from doing so--I'm already "stage 3" and dyno tuned). I'm not the type of person to just blindly believe what somebody says without proof/explanation, which leads me to believe I saw dyno charts with a decent methodology behind them at some point. (My memory is bad, though, so I could be wrong)

I just can't figure out any reason he would lie about downpipes not helping with power, it seems like he could say "oh yeah, get a downpipe.. you'll need a new tune, too, that'll be $75" and earn himself some money.

I also don't believe Adam had a downpipe on his car before he sold it, and I'd assume that he, as a tuner, would want to squeeze every bit of power possible out of his car.

I have no vested interest in this topic, I am not a customer of Adam's.

 

[antarctica24]

That's a DAMN good question. I'm very skeptical of the answer myself, but "they" effectively say it's because this specific tiny turbo needs some back pressure. I cannot express how skeptical of this answer I am.

"THERE ARE FOUR LIGHTS!"

Wow we are more alike than I thought, I got that reference!

 

[antarctica24]

Um, what 'snake oil' talk? A turbo is the biggest restriction in an exhaust, but freeing up the air path before/after it can definitively produce gains depending on the OEM design of the parts.

Can you clarify what your saying here? I thought you said redesigned intakes didn't make any difference based on your data collecting. Not trying to start something just want to better understand what your saying.

 

[antarctica24]

In that logic we don't "need" anything. We drive around, hit 40mph and are done majority of the time. If I offered you more low end torque for the sweet price of $189 you wouldn't be in?

One tuner said there is no power to be had, and he seems like a damn good tuner with a solid reputation, but at the end of the day it won't be hurting you if your trying to squeeze that tiny turbo of useable power.

Also why would anyone that is not willing to tune the car throw a downpipe on and be mad they didn't gain power? On these cars now a days the tune has to be modified one way of another for damn near everything. It sucks.

I think the dumber aspect of this is obviously there is data to suggest perhaps a DP does not offer any if much gain. By the way I bought one. it is odd though that Cobb and MAP and some others would go to the trouble of investing the time and money into developing one, and selling one when it offers nothing. If it doesn't offer any power gains, are their other benefits from having it on a stock turbo. There needs to be because of the investment I made to get it on the car.

 

[DP03]

If I'm not mistaken hasn't Mishimoto just come to the same conclusion with their DP R&D? Little to no gain for a DP I believe is what they concluded (stock turbo)?.

 

[twolf]

You do realize those are businesses. They exist to make money. If they can sell a downpipe for a profit they'll do it, gain or not.

 

[antarctica24]

You do realize those are businesses. They exist to make money. If they can sell a downpipe for a profit they'll do it, gain or not.

Of Course, look, I had read a majority of the posts about this prior to installing this thing, but with now a 162,000 miles, I had it, it had a cat on it, why not? I know if everything is working correctly there is no reason the cat should ever fail, but you never know. I had a conversation today with Adam at Cobb and asked him point blank, if I have this DP on the car, can I just run the Stage 1 tune, and he said absolutely not. So as everyone puts their faith into Cobb, I had to take him at his word. You guys have been messing around with this car a lot longer than I have, and on top of that, I have ZERO TURBO EXPERIENCE. There are no DP's in the Supercharged world. It is just a little aggravating that their ok pushing their propaganda, that it is a stage 3 item that does nothing. I know they are not saying you have to have it, and Adam at Tune+ has proven stage 3 tunes without it, if you call COBB, they will tell you DP installed requires stage 3 OTS tune.

 

[twolf]

Of Course, look, I had read a majority of the posts about this prior to installing this thing, but with now a 162,000 miles, I had it, it had a cat on it, why not? I know if everything is working correctly there is no reason the cat should ever fail, but you never know. I had a conversation today with Adam at Cobb and asked him point blank, if I have this DP on the car, can I just run the Stage 1 tune, and he said absolutely not. So as everyone puts their faith into Cobb, I had to take him at his word. You guys have been messing around with this car a lot longer than I have, and on top of that, I have ZERO TURBO EXPERIENCE. There are no DP's in the Supercharged world. It is just a little aggravating that their ok pushing their propaganda, that it is a stage 3 item that does nothing. I know they are not saying you have to have it, and Adam at Tune+ has proven stage 3 tunes without it, if you call COBB, they will tell you DP installed requires stage 3 OTS tune.

I ran a downpipe without being tuned for it for several weeks. Was it unsafe? I don't know, but my AFRs were perfect, so I'm not sure exactly what the issue with it would be.

I have a catless downpipe. I'm not smart enough to tell you whether or not I make more power than a car without one. But my car did dyno the highest of any Fiesta my tuner has had on his dyno, which has had several stage 3 cars on it. But I also had a superior intercooler, so who knows...

 

[antarctica24]

I ran a downpipe without being tuned for it for several weeks. Was it unsafe? I don't know, but my AFRs were perfect, so I'm not sure exactly what the issue with it would be.

I have a catless downpipe. I'm not smart enough to tell you whether or not I make more power than a car without one. But my car did dyno the highest of any Fiesta my tuner has had on his dyno, which has had several stage 3 cars on it. But I also had a superior intercooler, so who knows...

Well never let it be said that a Cat is a restriction in the exhaust path, right?
Which intercooler are you running?
I live in North Carolina and they are happy emission state so I try to be as legal as I can. If I may ask what power did you make with your cat less dp and I'm assuming that was without an upgraded turbo correct?

 

[twolf]

Well never let it be said that a Cat is a restriction in the exhaust path, right?
Which intercooler are you running?
I live in North Carolina and they are happy emission state so I try to be as legal as I can. If I may ask what power did you make with your cat less dp and I'm assuming that was without an upgraded turbo correct?

There's not really much point in me telling you what I made, since each and every dyno is different. I "made" somewhere around 215-230 WHP and 300+ TQ according to both the physical dyno and v-dyno, so I'd place it somewhere in that area.

I have the DHM crash bar and cooler.

I don't care how much my car is making, I'm not happy with the power regardless of the number. Either big turbo time, or trade the car in time

 

[antarctica24]

I have the pierce 4pt brace, bc coilovers, and cobb RMM and at stock and stage 1 power levels this combination eliminated wheel hop and helped a lot with off the line traction...until I went stage 3 and now there is no traction to be had in 1st or 2nd wot. That might have something to do with the stock tires though. I'm about to have a cyborg turbo and a pro tune so I'm curious if anything will change.

So, I'm curious, prior to installing you 4pt brace, bc coilovers and cobb RMM, stage 1 power levels you had wheel hop and problems with off the line traction? I must be driving a completely different car than everyone else. I have seen the videos of the whole engine banging into the firewall and wheel hop issues and I just am not seeing it.

I started off differently than most, I installed the BC coilovers and 6 point brace which I have claimed to have felt a noticeable difference in the way the car handled. The BC coilovers went on first drove it for a week, then installed the 6 point brace and could feel a difference in how the car handled between the two, I really don't GAS for anyone that would question what I say I am feeling regarding this. This information is for anyone that has not done any upgrades and wants a second opinion.

So that was all on the stock tune. No wheel hop issues, no banging of motor into firewall.

Then I installed the FMIC, and Exhaust from the factory cat back. Picked up a little bit in the seat. Dyno Jet Said 198 and 223. I never did a base pull so this becomes my base, but I have not see any Ford Fiesta real world dyno numbers to show they had more or the same power with no tune so until I do, power was picked up I believe based on the exhaust. On the same day, installed COBB Stage 1, DynoJet said 198/251. Drove it aggressively 2 hours home. No Wheel hop, no banging of motor into firewall. Still no RMM installed.

Thrusday, I paid an exhaust shop to install my Downpipe. I loaded the OTS Cobb Stage 3 tune. According to Cobb meters, car is making on best pull I could do 282 TQ. I hope to have Adam do a custom tune shortly and take it back to Wilmington to do another Dynojet run as that is now my base test equipment. I want to be consistent for the naysayers here. So I have been driving the car very aggressively for roughly 3 days. No Wheel hop, No engine banging into the firewall. Still No RMM. To define aggressive driving let's say I was a SCCA member which I used to race, and have done the drag strip thing a couple hundred times in a car with real power, and I manufactured performance clutches for LS1 vehicles making more than 700RWHP so I'm pretty sure I understand aggressive driving. I have ordered the RMM from Breedt and it should be here next week some time because everyone is making such a big deal out of this piece. I had someone in the car with me last night, and for the first time, I had the traction light come on a hard launch out of 2nd gear. But when I am in the car by myself. I can be at a stoplight, and put my foot to the floor and power shift all the way through 4th with no problems. Maybe it is just the experience of my age and driving a stick, I don't know, but I don't get why everyone is having such a problem launching the car. And launching the car may not be the right term. I am referring to wheel hop and the engine banging into the firewall and having a stage 3 tune and not being able to have traction in 1 and 2nd gear.

As for the Downpipe, it is a process. yes it is more money, yes it is a PITA to get installed especially now that I have 163,000 miles (passed that last night). yes I am still on the factory clutch. The downpipe frees up airflow, whether it makes power or not is irrelevant. If it frees up airflow its a good thing for all of the other parts combined. Mine is catted and from MAP.

 

[dyn085]

Engines cannot and do not hit the firewall regardless of the RMM used, what people are actually hearing/feeling is the RMM bottoming-out on itself. Wheel hop is simply an alignment issue exacerbated by rapid toe changes caused by having grip and then losing it in rapid succession.

 

[antarctica24]

Engines cannot and do not hit the firewall regardless of the RMM used, what people are actually hearing/feeling is the RMM bottoming-out on itself. Wheel hop is simply an alignment issue exacerbated by rapid toe changes caused by having grip and then losing it in rapid succession.

Ok, let me modify my comments, I do not understand how the RMM is bottoming out on itself. For all intents and purposes my car should have more problems with this than others due to the 13 years worth of mileage on my car. As to the wheel hop, don't have that either, so I still do not understand why everyone is having a problem with it. Everyone talks about this car having too much torque at stage 3, and I do believe now that 300 ft lbs of torque from the stock turbo is the usable upper limit on drivability or what I call daily driving for the car to still be fun. With that said, the downpipe goes in the plus column not the minus column. It helps to free up exhaust, and that is what it does. Jeff may be more correct in stopping at stage two. In my opinion, it really depends on what your driving habits are.

According to Cobb:

Description

"The COBB Ford Fiesta ST Rear Motor Mount is the best way to minimize engine movement, improve traction, and reduce wheel hop without major impact to NVH. Typical bushing designs can rattle your teeth out at idle or during throttle input. The COBB Ford Fiesta ST RMM utilizes unique voids custom molded into the larger 68A durometer bushing and a smaller 85A durometer bushing to absorb vibrations, but still reduce engine movement to aid getting all the power to the ground. The beautifully machined 6061 billet aluminum mount with zinc hardware will make you sad you have to hide it under your car. "

I see the word engine movement, improve traction reduce wheel hop without major impact to NVH. Apparently the company you hold so dear, does not agree with your assessment on the wheel hop scenario. My teeth are still in my head using the stock motor mount. I am really starting to believe based on all of your data logging, no upgrades are needed at all to achieve the same kind of power. All you need is an access port and a tune. That makes everything sold as a bolt on for this car according to you, fraudulent propaganda.

 

[dyn085]

I could explain the theory to you but it would just become another MAF argument scenario where you argue with me until someone with 'experience' agrees and then you just go silent. I'm not at odds with the Cobb statement and, in fact, can agree with their statement.

I also didn't have wheel-hop issues, except for one-single time at the track, but I keep my alignment in check because I take care of my car. I also could replicate bottoming-out the OEM mount, but I chose not to because I don't side-step the clutch. Again, by taking care of my car.

I fully believe that a lot of issues that many have had or seen stem from abuse, neglect, or ignorance, but that's just my opinion. I definitely love my RMM, though.

 

[boyracer]

my car banged at the top of every gear. took the stock mount off and replaced the big end only with a poly bushing. the stock rear control arms in the last three new mustangs I raced had soft crappy bushings which wheel hopped, steered and banged......if you look at any of these bushings you will see a large void that fords has cast into the bushing so they slop around without much support. without sounding nasty, antartica, get under the car and look and you will see. fwiw, some of the principals that us older gear heads have learned simply do not apply to the stuff being constructed today....respectively bobn

 

[antarctica24]

I could explain the theory to you but it would just become another MAF argument scenario where you argue with me until someone with 'experience' agrees and then you just go silent. I'm not at odds with the Cobb statement and, in fact, can agree with their statement.

I also didn't have wheel-hop issues, except for one-single time at the track, but I keep my alignment in check because I take care of my car. I also could replicate bottoming-out the OEM mount, but I chose not to because I don't side-step the clutch. Again, by taking care of my car.

I fully believe that a lot of issues that many have had or seen stem from abuse, neglect, or ignorance, but that's just my opinion. I definitely love my RMM, though.

Now that's not fair. It certainly does not have to be like that. I just kept reading about all of the problems people were having both here and all over the internet until they install the magical RMM. Maybe what you said is the case. Everyone that is having a problem is not taking care of their car through abuse, neglect, or ignorance. I certainly take care of my car. If I didn't, I don't think I would have been able to drive as long as I have without any problems.

 

[dyn085]

There have been a few videos showing just how much movement the OEM RMM allows in comparison to aftermarket units. Just looking at the OEM design in comparison to the others nearly fully-explain why.

 

[antarctica24]

my car banged at the top of every gear. took the stock mount off and replaced the big end only with a poly bushing. the stock rear control arms in the last three new mustangs I raced had soft crappy bushings which wheel hopped, steered and banged......if you look at any of these bushings you will see a large void that fords has cast into the bushing so they slop around without much support. without sounding nasty, antartica, get under the car and look and you will see. fwiw, some of the principals that us older gear heads have learned simply do not apply to the stuff being constructed today....respectively bobn

I don't take it that way, I am just trying to understand. Do you have different bushings installed on your car than what I bought. We both bought our cars from Ford, right? They are both Fiesta ST
s right? I am still riding around now with 163K miles, still with all of the factory bushings, no sloppiness, no banging, What are all of you doing to your car?

 

[antarctica24]

There have been a few videos showing just how much movement the OEM RMM allows in comparison to aftermarket units. Just looking at the OEM design in comparison to the others nearly fully-explain why.

I saw these videos. I was just puzzled by all of it. My car does not suffer from all of the same problems. Just curious as to why.

 

[dyn085]

I saw these videos. I was just puzzled by all of it. My car does not suffer from all of the same problems. Just curious as to why.

Your car suffers from the same amount of overall movement from the OEM RMM; just because you are not taking it to the full extreme does not mean it doesn't exist. Side-step your clutch from the line at a drag-strip and you'll most likely get both the bang from the RMM bottoming-out and wheel hop from the forces exerted on the tires.