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CLOSED: Cyborg TurboCharger * NOT AVAILABLE *
- Thread starter Sourskittle
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Curious (and forgive me if it's somewhere in this thread) but did you ever get a chance to do a DynoJet pull on 93 octane? I'm curious about the torque delivery curve and VDyno plots never seem to have the same profile as a real dyno.
Also, from looking at your logs I see you're still pushing 26psi up to redline. There's a TON of heat being added past 5k so I was wondering if you've tried letting the boost taper off a bit more (to control charge temps) and instead advancing timing further?
Also, from looking at your logs I see you're still pushing 26psi up to redline. There's a TON of heat being added past 5k so I was wondering if you've tried letting the boost taper off a bit more (to control charge temps) and instead advancing timing further?
OP
Thread Starter
#384
Thread Starter
#384
I don't think anyone with a cyborg recently has put it on an actual dyno jet. Mine made 218whp on an OTS cobb tune (slightly modified ) on 93oct. That was with huge throttle closures, and all kinds of poorly tuned issues with it on a stock intake and stock intercooler. That was also with a spring holding the stock wastegate closed, not a real wastegate.
The V dyno's actually are a more realistic display of how power is made since a dyno can not 100% replicate the load on the car.
The V dyno's actually are a more realistic display of how power is made since a dyno can not 100% replicate the load on the car.
OP
Thread Starter
#385
Thread Starter
#385
Iso, just wanted to add on a little. You have to realize the goal of this setup was never to add much of anything to PEAK numbers over the stock turbo. At the time, we were seeing 195-217whp on stg3 cars. The real goal always was to fix the issue where the car feels like someone shut the motor off at 5200rpm. For instance... If you were ( just an example, so don't go pointing fingers ) to start out with a Stg3 OtS cobb tune car that made 195whp but only 175whp at 6200rpm and THEN you changed to this setup with a panda motorworks tune, and made only 230whp ( should be pretty easy to do actually ) but it was at 6200rpm, the you actually just gained 55whp NOT 35whp ( which is what you gained peak ). It changes the way the motor makes its power. It changes it way of making power to a smoother, and more "motorsports friendly" type of power vs the kind of power you want in a mini-van ( aka ford escape/fusion ).
While mostly, people do instantly compare peak numbers, there is more to that story.
On the flipside, is cool weather on good fuel with a "fair" intercooler upgrade i have many V-dynos in the 270-279whp range and a few in the 280-285whp range. Those numbers could be improved on as well. And on almost every VD I have in cool weather, I make 200whp at 4200rpm or so, and its "just getting started" really. And I think most car platforms would agree that 18-20psi at 3,000rpm is hardly "laggy".
And I'm also not a pro-tuner....
While mostly, people do instantly compare peak numbers, there is more to that story.
On the flipside, is cool weather on good fuel with a "fair" intercooler upgrade i have many V-dynos in the 270-279whp range and a few in the 280-285whp range. Those numbers could be improved on as well. And on almost every VD I have in cool weather, I make 200whp at 4200rpm or so, and its "just getting started" really. And I think most car platforms would agree that 18-20psi at 3,000rpm is hardly "laggy".
And I'm also not a pro-tuner....
OP
Thread Starter
#386
Thread Starter
#386
Cyborg upgraded stock Turbocharger system
Hummmmmm
Yep... That's big
Nowhere nearly as easy as it looks
No going back, lol
4.5 hours just in this so far... Have to turn the tube down a bit on the lath, cut the tube to make the funky shape of the manifold. Cut the other side of the tube flat and weld them in. Then trim the oem heat shield to fit around it.
This is for a customers Cyborg setup, not mine ( yet ). I under bidded the job by a lot price wise, lol, but this thing should be pretty awesome.
Hummmmmm
Yep... That's big
Nowhere nearly as easy as it looks
No going back, lol
4.5 hours just in this so far... Have to turn the tube down a bit on the lath, cut the tube to make the funky shape of the manifold. Cut the other side of the tube flat and weld them in. Then trim the oem heat shield to fit around it.
This is for a customers Cyborg setup, not mine ( yet ). I under bidded the job by a lot price wise, lol, but this thing should be pretty awesome.
Nice! I can hardly wait for all the parts to come together and see what can really be pushed with the cyborg properly supported (not saying what you have is wrong SS - we spoke, you know what I mean) but it should be a hoot! I also have an LSD, aluminum flywheel and Spec stage 3+ clutch to tie power to the ground...
OP
Thread Starter
#389
Thread Starter
#389
I don't identify cyborg owners unless they want to be Dusty, lol, so now I don't have to refer to you anonymously, lol.
But no, I def agree with you, your setup between the higher degree of tuning experience with your tuner, way better hard parts selection, and this external wastegate should be able to match my number without WMI or smoke my numbers if you run WMI or race gas vs E40/E50. That's why I don't mind eating some of the labor myself to get it done, it should be awesome, and I really don't mind being beaten, lol.
I'm excited for you
But no, I def agree with you, your setup between the higher degree of tuning experience with your tuner, way better hard parts selection, and this external wastegate should be able to match my number without WMI or smoke my numbers if you run WMI or race gas vs E40/E50. That's why I don't mind eating some of the labor myself to get it done, it should be awesome, and I really don't mind being beaten, lol.
I'm excited for you
How much do you think an external wastegate help on a stock turbo? Also being this is my first turbo car, switching from internal to external, what is needed/steps to remove the internal wastegate. That may be very educational not only to myself but others as well to better understand how these systems work. Awesome welds!
Awesome welds!
OP
Thread Starter
#398
Thread Starter
#398
I myself was never a fan of external wastegates. I thought they were generally over complicated and overly expensive and that about the only real benefit was the option to bled really loud raw exhaust out an external wastegate dump pipe ( screamer pipe ). And that they look cool. I did realize that some turbos/combos would need an external gate for better boost control, like.... If you tried to run 7psi on a T88 turbo or if you had something like a dsm where the internal gate can't bled off enough exhaust and you get "boost creep" (where you want to run say 15psi, but as rpm increases the boost does too, even when you don't want it to ).
But after years of more experienced guys telling to stick an external wastegate on these stock turbo upgrades because their stock turbine blades and housings are naturally too small/restrictive, I finally started researching ( the fiesta ST in not my first rodeo with stock turbo upgrades ).
What I found, I regretfully didn't bookmark, but mainly, what I found was the WRX tuners ( shop owners, not car owners ) were claiming dyno proven 25-30whp gains on stock upgraded turbos that went from internal gate to external gates. This was on the 2.0L cars.
I also found a srt4 member that had a dyno tuned car WITH AN EXTERNAL GATE ALREADY. It was also a turbo that already had a good sized turbine housing and turbine wheel. But on this srt4 he had an open dump. He changed his mind after he got it tuned and re-routed the external wastegate back into the downpipe and later found that he'd lost 38whp. So he went back to an open dump with a small muffler on it and dyno'd a 3rd time and found he gained the 38whp back again. The lesson that teaches is that, if your not going to vent the wastegate somewhere besides the downpipe/catback back, you prob should not spend money. It also shows on that car, the change from an internal gate ( if he'd had one to begin with ) to an external would have gained a minimum of 38whp, likely a good bit more.
External wastegates are also said to spool a turbo 500rpm sooner with all things being equal. I'm not sure of that, but it maybe another benefit for us.
General benefits include naturally lower EGT's as your pulling exhaust heat off the cylinders much closer to the exhaust valves. Your turbo should run much cooler as well since on heavy loads, most the hot gasses never reach the turbine housing, let alone the turbine wheel/center section. Better boost control without unwanted spikes (Russ/DHM was much happier with the GTX setup with an external gate vs the EFR that is/was an internal gate ).
These stock turbo's can run a pressure ratio of 3 to 1. Meaning for every 1psi of boost your seeing on the intake valve/intake manifold your getting 1,2, or even 3 psi in the exhaust manifold. So if your running 20psi, you could be seeing 60psi in your exhaust manifold. Now that being said, what do you think happens when the piston tries to push the exhaust out of the cylinder when the exhaust valves open the piston moves up? That piston is fighting against 60psi already in the manifold !!! If you can reduce that 60psi by 10psi, 20psi or even 5psi, your doing a world of good. This helps with reversion ( exhaust traveling backwards into the cylinder because that 60psi ).
Also... All the porting I do to the manifold exit and turbine inlet ? That will be even further improved because now, a good volume of the over all exhaust flow is moving out the wastegate in the manifold, it never travels or takes up space beyond the manifold. This is a big big reason why cars with very small turbine housings and turbine wheels stand to gain the most from an external wastegate upgrade. I once read on a volvo site ( and I agree ) that running an external gate off the manifold like this is like cheating the turbo into running like one that has a larger turbine housing, but without actually having a bigger turbine housing.
I'll be posting lots more. I don't have the parts in front of me right now, it will likely be Monday. But I'll try to show some mods that are required on the turbine housing ( to do it right anyway ).
Hope all that makes sense, I'm aware some of these things maybe new concepts to a lot of guys, but I'm willing to answer any questions the best I can, and if I don't know the answer; maybe someone else will
But after years of more experienced guys telling to stick an external wastegate on these stock turbo upgrades because their stock turbine blades and housings are naturally too small/restrictive, I finally started researching ( the fiesta ST in not my first rodeo with stock turbo upgrades ).
What I found, I regretfully didn't bookmark, but mainly, what I found was the WRX tuners ( shop owners, not car owners ) were claiming dyno proven 25-30whp gains on stock upgraded turbos that went from internal gate to external gates. This was on the 2.0L cars.
I also found a srt4 member that had a dyno tuned car WITH AN EXTERNAL GATE ALREADY. It was also a turbo that already had a good sized turbine housing and turbine wheel. But on this srt4 he had an open dump. He changed his mind after he got it tuned and re-routed the external wastegate back into the downpipe and later found that he'd lost 38whp. So he went back to an open dump with a small muffler on it and dyno'd a 3rd time and found he gained the 38whp back again. The lesson that teaches is that, if your not going to vent the wastegate somewhere besides the downpipe/catback back, you prob should not spend money. It also shows on that car, the change from an internal gate ( if he'd had one to begin with ) to an external would have gained a minimum of 38whp, likely a good bit more.
External wastegates are also said to spool a turbo 500rpm sooner with all things being equal. I'm not sure of that, but it maybe another benefit for us.
General benefits include naturally lower EGT's as your pulling exhaust heat off the cylinders much closer to the exhaust valves. Your turbo should run much cooler as well since on heavy loads, most the hot gasses never reach the turbine housing, let alone the turbine wheel/center section. Better boost control without unwanted spikes (Russ/DHM was much happier with the GTX setup with an external gate vs the EFR that is/was an internal gate ).
These stock turbo's can run a pressure ratio of 3 to 1. Meaning for every 1psi of boost your seeing on the intake valve/intake manifold your getting 1,2, or even 3 psi in the exhaust manifold. So if your running 20psi, you could be seeing 60psi in your exhaust manifold. Now that being said, what do you think happens when the piston tries to push the exhaust out of the cylinder when the exhaust valves open the piston moves up? That piston is fighting against 60psi already in the manifold !!! If you can reduce that 60psi by 10psi, 20psi or even 5psi, your doing a world of good. This helps with reversion ( exhaust traveling backwards into the cylinder because that 60psi ).
Also... All the porting I do to the manifold exit and turbine inlet ? That will be even further improved because now, a good volume of the over all exhaust flow is moving out the wastegate in the manifold, it never travels or takes up space beyond the manifold. This is a big big reason why cars with very small turbine housings and turbine wheels stand to gain the most from an external wastegate upgrade. I once read on a volvo site ( and I agree ) that running an external gate off the manifold like this is like cheating the turbo into running like one that has a larger turbine housing, but without actually having a bigger turbine housing.
I'll be posting lots more. I don't have the parts in front of me right now, it will likely be Monday. But I'll try to show some mods that are required on the turbine housing ( to do it right anyway ).
Hope all that makes sense, I'm aware some of these things maybe new concepts to a lot of guys, but I'm willing to answer any questions the best I can, and if I don't know the answer; maybe someone else will
OP
Thread Starter
#399
Thread Starter
#399
Pete my guess on a stock turbo would be 10-20whp ( maybe more). On a cyborg turbo, it could be MUCH MUCH more. I'd expect at least 20whp on a cyborg setup and it wouldn't shock me to see 30whp (maybe more). Larger turbos already have nice flowing exhaust/turbines, we don't
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