Stupid

[Old Mike Emerson]

Your logic/experience is exactly why I'll own an EV one day. Gonna keep all my other cars too. But the EV just makes sense.

I took a 9 hour drive with my friend to pick up a new project recently in his Tesla 3. Was amazed. Yeah it's boring but it's fast as crap and the car drove itself through rush hour traffic in Atlanta at 8:30am in the rain. Until you're sitting in the car while it does that you don't realize how much more peaceful of an experience it is. A 30 minute gridlock felt like 5 minutes. The car figured out where to go, charge, etc. on its own and it took no more time to get there (with 2 charges) than it would have in an ICE car. Stops were short and efficent, by the time I emptied my bladder and got a sandwich the car was charged and ready.

One day we _might_ replace our CX9 with a MachE or ModelY. But for sure when my little girl turns 16ish and is ready to learn to drive, which is 4 years away, I'm getting a used Bolt or Leaf. Leaf is quite amazing - a used one can be had for ~$5k and do everything you need for an around-town car. Not the most exciting but it does the job like you said. I get it.

No fear of getting bored, there is always the Fiesta or my other cars to keep the blood pumping.

Great discussion.

PS side note on EV hate...it's a real thing. Nice to see people discussing it logically here. I don't get it. I think it comes down to pride - we see pride in someone else who we think "thinks they're better" because they have an EV and are green and all that. Truth is we're no worse if we have pride/hate/judge back.

I don't hate the EV, I just question giving up to much control to a programmer that I do not know. People are fallible, we make mistakes. I don't like all the wiz bang gadgets in any of the new cars. Hands free driving scares the shit out of me. It's hard enough driving with all the assholes on cell phones not paying attention or messing with their infotainment controls again not paying attention to the road. I just don't see good things coming in the future.

 

[jeffreylyon]

I don't hate the EV, I just question giving up to much control to a programmer that I do not know. People are fallible, we make mistakes. I don't like all the wiz bang gadgets in any of the new cars. Hands free driving scares the shit out of me. It's hard enough driving with all the assholes on cell phones not paying attention or messing with their infotainment controls again not paying attention to the road. I just don't see good things coming in the future.

I really don’t use hands free often; for some reason it rides the right line too close for my comfort. Newer versions are supposedly better but I’m happy to do the driving myself.

 

[Ford ST]

My G70 has steering assist it can actually drive itself on the interstate for a period of time, eventually it gets pissed at me and makes me drive. Was never a big fan of some of these features in the past, but adaptive cruise control and steering assist Is quite nice. Guess what though I can turn all that shit off if I want to. I would love a electric work truck. Sitting on top of a loud diesel engine all day is annoying it's loud and it's hot. 360 cameras are a nice feature as well.

My wife and I don't have any smart devices in our house, no smart watch, no ring doorbell I hate all of that stuff. A car that can drive itself that is cool. A watch that shows you a text message not so much.

Sent from my SM-A526U using Tapatalk

 

[jeff]

I don't hate the EV, I just question giving up to much control...Hands free driving scares the shit out of me. It's hard enough driving with all the assholes on cell phones not paying attention or messing with their infotainment controls again not paying attention to the road. I just don't see good things coming in the future.

I 100% agree with you and as someone who loves every second of the driving/shifting/steering/interacting with the car and road experience, I don't see myself ever using autopilot if I had a car that had it. I'm just saying that being a passenger in a car with autopilot was an eye-opening experience.

I have many opinions that are formed out of inexperience, and that's a flaw. Like that old indian proverb, don't judge a man till you've walked a mile in his moccasins. Being a passenger in rush-hour as described above opened my eyes. My truth isn't the only reality in the universe, and I'm humbled to say I'm full of myself most of the time, and this was one of those moments that I remembered not to dismiss something (or someone) based on my asshole attitude without ever even experiencing it (them).

I am pleased you respect my answer on the EV Hate question enough to seek out additional wisdom on "tax incentives given to the oil and gas industry". However, I'd like to point out that's very off topic and should instead be addressed in a separate Active Topic/Forum.

To be totally objective, that's a bit of a dodge. The man made a valid point and you only want to play by your rules. If we're flamed about tax incentives to one it's not right that we get to decide who should and shouldn't get the tax credits. Oh wait I forgot we're in a society where truth is relative and feelings are more important that facts. Carry on.

 

[Blah]

<snip>

To be totally objective, that's a bit of a dodge. The man made a valid point and you only want to play by your rules. If we're flamed about tax incentives to one it's not right that we get to decide who should and shouldn't get the tax credits. Oh wait I forgot we're in a society where truth is relative and feelings are more important that facts. Carry on.

True, it is a bit of a dodge. It was also a way to keep the topic on topic, non-political, and answer the question why people hate EVs. DO you want this topic to move into oil & gas subsidies? OK, I'm against those too. However, just because government made the mistake of subsidizing one industry doesn't mean they should make the same mistake again to subsidize another in order to create some sort of balance of errors. What's next? Are we going to start discussing how critically important it is to embrace EVs in order to avert global warming while Climate Czars take private jets to receive awards from environmental groups?

 

[unclefester]

I dislike EVs and modern cars in general because there's too much to go wrong outside of warranty. Anyone that works in IT will most likely feel the same. They are expensive, too expensive to buy outright and I don't like leasing / PCP / PCH deals. They will date ridiculously quickly as battery and charging tech moves on which is another nail in the coffin of buying one.

From a fuel saving point of view, it doesn't work either. Fiesta costs me £80 ( so $100 near enough) a month to commute to work in. The car is mine, it has no finance outstanding on it. An EV would cost me probably £350 or more a month so unless i really need / want a new car, the math doesn't add up.

As someone amusingly pointed out earlier in the thread, it comes down to insulating yourself against fossil fuel shortages / price increases but Governments aren't stupid. As soon as we're all relying on charging EVs, the price of electricity will go up to replace the tax they are no longer making back on petrol / diesel.

Sure if you live in California then Solar and offgrid is an option but not in Grey Britain, we don't get anywhere near enough strong sun to rely on it as a power source. At least not without considerable investment in decent panels and decent battery storage.

PHEV is where it's at for me but again as above, until i NEED a new car, it's an expensive moot point. Given that I spread my use between an old 90s Del Sol, a Z1000SX ( only when it's not crap weather) and the Fiesta .... the need for a new car is some way off. The desire for a new motorbike is far stronger

 

[Ford ST]

Actually to make up for the fuel tax they just have a higher yearly registration fee. Some States already do this for hybrids. The municipality I work for is part of a electric Co-Op they have lowered their rates 2 years in a row.
I fully understand every part of the world is different though.

Sent from my SM-A526U using Tapatalk

 

[gtx3076]

Yet, we are ALL FORCED to pay for other people's EVs. Does that explain the hate?

Yes, it explains it, but it's wrong. What percentage of your check goes to other people's EV's?

 

[jeff]

True, it is a bit of a dodge. It was also a way to keep the topic on topic, non-political, and answer the question why people hate EVs. DO you want this topic to move into oil & gas subsidies? OK, I'm against those too. However, just because government made the mistake of subsidizing one industry doesn't mean they should make the same mistake again to subsidize another in order to create some sort of balance of errors. What's next? Are we going to start discussing how critically important it is to embrace EVs in order to avert global warming while Climate Czars take private jets to receive awards from environmental groups?

No politics at all! Just being logical. You are hating and discounting something based on a premise (subsidies paid by your hard-earned dollar being taxed) that if you equally applied to yourself (driving, I assume ICE cars...which are also subsidized...) would cause you to hate the things you say you love. It's a double standard based more on bias than experience or a fixed standard. Beyond that, another angle: Many people who hate EVs because they're "soulless" or "unsafe" or this or that have never spent a single second behind the wheel of one.

Like that old proverb in the Bible, "Let not him who puts his armor on boast like him who takes it off."

 

[Blah]

Yes, it explains it, but it's wrong. What percentage of your check goes to other people's EV's?

Are you saying that since only a small percentage of my check goes to other people's EVs it's OK? Just as long as it's a small sin everything is fine? Actually, what I think you're saying is some of my money goes to paying for other people's EVs. Edit: Since it's only a small amount, how about reimbursing me that small percentage?

I told you why people hate EVs. At least one of these people believe their money is going to people richer than them so EVs can be purchased that are newer, perform better, and nicer than what they themselves are driving. I would be fine with someone buying an EV without using a small percentage of my tax dollars. However, since they're using tax dollars they're subject to EV hate.

 

[Blah]

No politics at all! Just being logical. You are hating and discounting something based on a premise (subsidies paid by your hard-earned dollar being taxed) that if you equally applied to yourself (driving, I assume ICE cars...which are also subsidized...) would cause you to hate the things you say you love. It's a double standard based more on bias than experience or a fixed standard. Beyond that, another angle: Many people who hate EVs because they're "soulless" or "unsafe" or this or that have never spent a single second behind the wheel of one.

Like that old proverb in the Bible, "Let not him who puts his armor on boast like him who takes it off."

Not sure of your point. ICE cars shouldn't be subsidized either as I stated above: "...just because government made the mistake of subsidizing one industry doesn't mean they should make the same mistake again to subsidize another in order to create some sort of balance of errors." Instead government should fix the first mistake.

I am curious how ICE vehicles are subsidized. Care to explain?

 

[gtx3076]

Are you saying that since only a small percentage of my check goes to other people's EVs it's OK? Just as long as it's a small sin everything is fine? Actually, what I think you're saying is some of my money goes to paying for other people's EVs. Edit: Since it's only a small amount, how about reimbursing me that small percentage?

I told you why people hate EVs. At least one of these people believe their money is going to people richer than them so EVs can be purchased that are newer, perform better, and nicer than what they themselves are driving. I would be fine with someone buying an EV without using a small percentage of my tax dollars. However, since they're using tax dollars they're subject to EV hate.

You wouldn't keep anymore money in your check if those subsidies went away. I know this seems odd, but the gov't doesn't really need any of our tax dollars, we could all stop paying taxes today and the Federal gov't could function without it. The debt ceiling is a legislative issue, not a fiscal issue. The United States and Denmark are the only two countries that have a debt ceiling. We could abolish it and never worry about defaulting or shutting down again. The "my tax dollars" argument is a great way to get people angry about * enter government spending priority here *.

 

[Blah]

Please write your Congressman if you believe that. I'd happily avoid the annoyance of calculating my income tax every year (OK, my CPA does the calculations. But someone has to gather the info). Curious what would happen if the government decides not to pay interest on all that legislative, non--fiscal debt being accrued.

 

[jeffreylyon]

Not sure of your point. ICE cars shouldn't be subsidized either as I stated above: "...just because government made the mistake of subsidizing one industry doesn't mean they should make the same mistake again to subsidize another in order to create some sort of balance of errors." Instead government should fix the first mistake.

If no industries should receive any subsidizes (goodbye satellites, GPS, the Internet, COVID vaccines, dairy farms, etc.) and doing so creates "hate," it goes without saying that the amount of hate that ones who hates subsidizes has for the petroleum industry must be ***massive***.

Your logic fails. Every major industry is subsidized. If hate for any particular industry was driven by subsidizes people would be far too pissed to notice EV tax credits. EV hate is driven by emotion and opinion and you're just trying to justify it by saying that it receives something that EV alternatives receive as well.

 

[jeff]

If no industries should receive any subsidizes (goodbye satellites, GPS, the Internet, COVID vaccines, dairy farms, etc.) and doing so creates "hate," it goes without saying that the amount of hate that ones who hates subsidizes has for the petroleum industry must be ***massive***.

Your logic fails. Every major industry is subsidized. If hate for any particular industry was driven by subsidizes people would be far too pissed to notice EV tax credits. EV hate is driven by emotion and opinion and you're just trying to justify it by saying that it receives something that EV alternatives receive as well.

This was my exact point, but I have left the room except to say "thank you" for such clear thinking here!!!!

 

[Blah]

If no industries should receive any subsidizes (goodbye satellites, GPS, the Internet, COVID vaccines, dairy farms, etc.) and doing so creates "hate," it goes without saying that the amount of hate that ones who hates subsidizes has for the petroleum industry must be ***massive***.

Your logic fails. Every major industry is subsidized. If hate for any particular industry was driven by subsidizes people would be far too pissed to notice EV tax credits. EV hate is driven by emotion and opinion and you're just trying to justify it by saying that it receives something that EV alternatives receive as well.

For openers, your reply is pretty decent and thought out. You're spot on using the subsidize definition "support (an organization or activity) financially." Not so sure if we use the second definition, "pay part of the cost of producing (something) to reduce prices for the buyer." I'd also like to point out the auto industry was created without government assistance. As was the aviation industry, if you discount Langly's(?) failed attempts to beat the Wright brothers. Modern computers can trace their development back to WW2 (OK, the Babylonians had a working mechanical system, but I'm talking modern computers) which used government funds to defeat the enemies. I would not call this a subsidy. The government paid to have a better system in order to defeat the Nazi Enigma and U-boats. Despite government funding it was Gates and Jobs who really made the computer mainstream. The University of Hawaii developed the internet.

In your example -- satellites, GPS, the Internet, COVID vaccines, dairy farms, etc.-- satellites were created in a race against the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics... which the US initially lost with Sputnik 1. Public GPS is an offshoot of a War Department program. COVID vaccines are the result of the former President throwing gobs of cash at industry to create a response to a foreign attack -- definitely in the governments to-do list of jobs. (BTW, don't mean China attacked, I mean the virus was a foreign attacker). There's no direct payment here to reduce prices for the buyer with the exception of COVID vaccines.

The government did help support the creation of our wonderful canal network -- Erie, C&O -- and was instrumental with ensuring railroads could be created. Sadly, they're now subsidizing Amtrak so folks can ride trains for less than cost., which is just another bill we're all paying.

In general, the Federal government should maintain the (fed) courts, provide for defense and secure the border, and print money. Most everything else belongs to the states. Which is why there should not be any Federal subsidies for EVs.

My initial post, way back on page 1, was merely to explain why there are EV haters. I believe I provided a reason. I'm done now. Flame away if you want.

 

[gtx3076]

Please write your Congressman if you believe that. I'd happily avoid the annoyance of calculating my income tax every year (OK, my CPA does the calculations. But someone has to gather the info). Curious what would happen if the government decides not to pay interest on all that legislative, non--fiscal debt being accrued.

We already practice MMT with our fiat currency. To my knowledge no country in the world has money backed by gold or any other precious metal anymore. So setting that aside, I think it's worth while debating if EV's should or shouldn't receive subsidies.

I think there is pressure for us to subsidize our own industries because there are other powerful nations in the world that already subsidize theirs to compete with us. I am personally in favor of EV's mostly being produced here so long as the jobs are middle class income jobs. My concern is that there are countries that use our "freer" markets against us. We export our engineering and manufacturing to these countries to produce products cheaper and import them back. They steal our technology then flood our own market with their even cheaper product. As far as purchasing priorities, I attempt to purchase locally (city/state), nationally (USA), regionally (North/South American) before globally.

 

[Dpro]

For openers, your reply is pretty decent and thought out. You're spot on using the subsidize definition "support (an organization or activity) financially." Not so sure if we use the second definition, "pay part of the cost of producing (something) to reduce prices for the buyer." I'd also like to point out the auto industry was created without government assistance. As was the aviation industry, if you discount Langly's(?) failed attempts to beat the Wright brothers. Modern computers can trace their development back to WW2 (OK, the Babylonians had a working mechanical system, but I'm talking modern computers) which used government funds to defeat the enemies. I would not call this a subsidy. The government paid to have a better system in order to defeat the Nazi Enigma and U-boats. Despite government funding it was Gates and Jobs who really made the computer mainstream. The University of Hawaii developed the internet.

In your example -- satellites, GPS, the Internet, COVID vaccines, dairy farms, etc.-- satellites were created in a race against the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics... which the US initially lost with Sputnik 1. Public GPS is an offshoot of a War Department program. COVID vaccines are the result of the former President throwing gobs of cash at industry to create a response to a foreign attack -- definitely in the governments to-do list of jobs. (BTW, don't mean China attacked, I mean the virus was a foreign attacker). There's no direct payment here to reduce prices for the buyer with the exception of COVID vaccines.

The government did help support the creation of our wonderful canal network -- Erie, C&O -- and was instrumental with ensuring railroads could be created. Sadly, they're now subsidizing Amtrak so folks can ride trains for less than cost., which is just another bill we're all paying.

In general, the Federal government should maintain the (fed) courts, provide for defense and secure the border, and print money. Most everything else belongs to the states. Which is why there should not be any Federal subsidies for EVs.

My initial post, way back on page 1, was merely to explain why there are EV haters. I believe I provided a reason. I'm done now. Flame away if you want.

Ok I am going to step into this just for clarifications sake since it hits real close to home.
Gates nor Jobs or your cell phone or computer would exist without the creation of fast TTL . Which my father came up with. There was slow TTL but without fast TTL you woul not have large scale integration which allowed for the creation of Semicondutor‘s. Before that all transistor circuits were large single transistors linked on a hole through circuit board.

Now as far as the government subsidizing that it was not exactly government subsidies like we are talking about today. It was a lot different back then. Indeed my Dad got his PHD in Physics at Purdue in large part because of the GI bill. Which you could say was a quasi government subsidy except it was more like pay for the work my Dad and nearly 99% of the men his generation did being conscripts and going off to WWII to fight.


Now that aside as far as I know when my Dad created Fast TTL and pioneered large scale integration and went on to invent 16bit ram at Fairchild among other things non of these companies were subsidized by the Government. Though …. They did have government contracts as they were manufacturing for the the U.S. Government. I knew nothing of my fathers inventions or what he would go on to do till I was in my 20’s and some of the NDA’s and classified materials had passed their declassification dates.
All of that work was for the Goverment. The Government did not so much as subsidize Silicon Valley as it contracted damn near the whole valley out with military work.


Fairchild and Hewlett Packard were the two companies that started Silicon Valley. Heh we lived down the street from the Hewlett‘s in Palo Alto.

Gates and Jobs basically only marketed OS’s , DOS which Gates copied from Compaq corporation and Mac OS which Jobs copied from Xerox Park. ( which was also in Palo Alto) lol.
Wozniak was the man who created the Mac and IBM was the company that created the PC.
I can add more but it would take paragraphs . My father was one of the top 5 men in Silicon Valley from the late 60’s clear into the end of the 90’s.

I should also add its comical that you mention Sputnik while being the first too space when the Soviet Union fell apart in 89 and we finally got to see what their systems were running we discovered they were flying Rockets and Airplanes with Vacuum tubes. Ya the Soviets did not have Semiconductors or large scale integration as my Dads inventions never made it there because ya enemy.. lol
So your history about electronics and progress is sorely lacking lots of facts.

 

[gtx3076]

Well, while the video I posted had a clickbait title, the point the gentleman was making in the way Japan filled the market void US manufacturers left open, he predicts China will do the same with EVs. They’re already producing millions of EVs and it won’t be long before we have Chinese produced EVs on our roads if we refuse to make them a priority.

Anyone that thinks China can’t produce quality products, just look at any construction site and you’ll see countless Milwaukee (Chinese owned and produced) tools everywhere.

 

[Dpro]

Well, while the video I posted had a clickbait title, the point the gentleman was making in the way Japan filled the market void US manufacturers left open, he predicts China will do the same with EVs. They’re already producing millions of EVs and it won’t be long before we have Chinese produced EVs on our roads if we refuse to make them a priority.

Anyone that thinks China can’t produce quality products, just look at any construction site and you’ll see countless Milwaukee (Chinese owned and produced) tools everywhere.

But…. We have a shit ton of EV companies coming online right now. Sure we might see some Chinese EV’s but Americans are willing to pay good money for their EV’s at this point. We have Lucid, Rivian, Apple( yes Apple who is aiming for fully autonomous) etc.( a few other names I have seen and forgotten ) . plus Ford , Nissan , Toyota, Hyundai, Kia, GM, Plus BMW, Porsche, Volkswagen, Volvo . I mean all the major players besides the upstarts are getting in and faster than we are seeing the Chinese imports arrive. Ford has a waiting list on the EV F150, lol I know everyone hates on Ford right for abandoning the sports cars and fun cars but they are going where the money is. I own stock in Ford for that very reason and I am quite Bullish on it. Ford is gonna knock it out of the ballpark with EV’s because regardless of how many people make EV’s Americans still want Pick Ups and SUV’s that has not changed. They will buy EV pickups and SUV’s and they will look to tried and true name brands first. Tesla only pulled off what they did due to gov subsidies and being the first out of the gate. In my opinion Tesla is facing stiff headwinds in the next two years.