alternative stage 1 maps?

[koozy]

hey look... I'm not here to argue with you. You're going to do what you're going to do. On the surface the difference between Stage 1 and Stage 2 is an intercooler, but I can assure you, because I just looked at both maps with Accesstuner Race there's significant differences.

 

[dyn085]

I shouldn't even entertain this discussion, but I don't really have anything better to do. For reference, I have ATR (and so do others) so it's very easy for me (and all of them) to see straight through your tuning 'guess'.

Since when is Lord Cobb the only people that say not to run an overly-aggressive tune? I seem to hear it from exactly every single pro-tuner and most every semi-knowledgeable tune owner. Have we all been brainwashed by Lord Cobb, the creator of all tunes ever?

Exactly how many degrees of timing should I apply, and exactly where, to the 30+ ignition tables? Is this just to a specific row or column? Should I just add this to the global offset and be done? Why is this the only aspect of a tune that needs changed?

This intercooler setting that the ECU used to 'make itself happy with the results'-where exactly is that? Should I turn 'the setting' up or down? Exactly what are the 'different temps and inputs' used to make these logic decisions and how do I know that my changes are correct?

If you're going to run stage 2 on stage 1 parts, why not just run stage 3? I mean, that's just one additional part as well. If all you have to do is drive more easily, then, by your logic, there's no difference.

And honestly, who uses a more aggressive tune just so they can be easier on the car while driving? I've never heard of someone adding a tune so they could drive more softly.



I know I'm a jerk for asking these questions or giving advice, but you clearly don't know what you're talking about. We're trying to help you, but you don't want to listen and seem to think you know about things that you clearly don't. I understand not having the cash to instantly plop down on everything, but sometimes it's worth waiting long enough to save and do things correctly.

Are you going to blow your motor instantly for running an overly-aggressive tune? No. Are you going to cause unforseen damage/stress that doesn't manifest itself until later? Your chances are much higher. In a nutshell, that basically covers it.

It's your car, have fun with it.

 

[dyn085]

hey look... I'm not here to argue with you. You're going to do what you're going to do. On the surface the difference between Stage 1 and Stage 2 is an intercooler, but I can assure you, because I just looked at both maps with Accesstuner Race there's significant differences.

^ This.

 

[MegaBuster]

see Dyn85 I was able to pull some useful information out of you and all I had to do was act like a jerk. I understand that there are many differences besides just some additional timing in the stage 2 maps. BUT if I add an intercooler all I am doing is reducing the tendancy for charge/oil/coolant temps to climb further past ambient\operating temps and take longer to return to near ambient levels. With the stage 2 changes I expect the car to run hotter temps as a result. yes there are many variables in the maps of the ECU of these newer cars and yes my tuning experience is not specific to ecoboost cars but I have tuned stand alones on several other turbo 4's in the past. My experience is telling me that the change in intercooler is meant to keep the other temperatures in the engine from running away and creating heat soak of not just the intercooler and charge temps but internal oil and coolant temps as well and with our small turbo that outputs exceptionally hot air that is a serious concern.

But what if you go to stage two and see no appreciable increase in oil/water or charge temps. If all of those temperatures are still within nominal ranges then where is the danger? I'm playing devils advocate here not because I am thick and think I am smarter. Its because I have not seen the data yet that shows me why I need this .IF. my charge/oil/coolant temps remain near stock running levels. If someone lived in a climate that was 40 degrees ambient why would they need an intercooler upgrade when someone who lived in an 80 degree climate would see higher operating temps even with an upgraded intercooler. at what point do these temps become a concern and warrant the install of an intercooler. We are not talking about running aggressive settings on low octane gas since the maps are both set for 91 octane. So the variable is simply temperatures since boost and octane remain the same am I correct or not?

and for the record I am not going to continue to run Stage 2 I was indeed just testing it on the commute into L.A early this morning and will switch it back before I do any real long term driving. I am just looking for the Why. If I want to check for myself the differences with the AP's logging feature what perimeters would you suggest I track across stage 0,1,2 to get the data I need to prove your point?

any inputs beyond the cobb suggested Boost, AFR, Ign Corr Cyl 1, Load Actual, CAT, Oil Temp

 

[koozy]

here's data.

 

[MegaBuster]

thanks for the link. I think I will data log my drives into work and a few boosted runs with the differant maps top see the differance. I see the 25 degree rises in intercooler temps on the AP on full boost runs. under normal driving or spirited canyon driving I am not seeing the temps climb much higher than that. on the track the thought of running without an intercooler even at stage one is unthinkable to me but on the basic day to day where your running up to 60 a half a dozen times in 30 minutes I don't see how the temps can get to the point of making a difference. the car is designed to run in all temps even with the tuned maps at the prescribed octane levels. if you are not heat soaking anything then I don't see the danger in it from the surface. Thats why there are so many variables in these maps because the ecu is constantly compensating to maximize the efficiency and power delivery for the current input conditions.

I will read through the information in the link and do some datalogging myself. I imagine my daily drive will not show me anything new and I already know that I don't want to push the car on a track without the added safety of an intercooler even on stage 1
'

 

[koozy]

At the end of the day your logic is probably Ok for your use... of just a few spirited pulls. Running a Stg 2 map sans an intercooler wouldn't be optimal and may induce the safety limiters to take effect, such as dumping more fuel in to help cool things down and/or retarding the ignition timing to prevent knock. Fortunately, with the various tables in the ECU there are safeguards built-in. Cobb OTS maps have a "no nonsense" policy in their maps to prevent damage that aggressively curb the power output significantly to save itself. There are limits though and those limits can be exceeded where damage may occur.

 

[MegaBuster]

Driving in 103 degree ambiant temps i can really feel the stage 1 tune pulling a lot of power. I dont think attempting to run stage 2 under those conditions would be of any benefit at all. I am going to try and keep an eye on my stage 1 tunes perameters to try to see where the car starts to dial back. Then i will have a better referance point to start with as to where the car starts to struggle with conditions in a street setting.

 

[MegaBuster]

I fully intend on getting an intercooler soon. Just have some obsticles to overcome first.

 

[Original J-Pat]

i got up to 106.9 charge temps what is too high?

 

[stuntdoogie]

I've seen as high as 108 charge temps with Randys Stage 1 93oct.

 

[dyn085]

see Dyn85 I was able to pull some useful information out of you and all I had to do was act like a jerk. I understand that there are many differences besides just some additional timing in the stage 2 maps. BUT if I add an intercooler all I am doing is reducing the tendancy for charge/oil/coolant temps to climb further past ambient\operating temps and take longer to return to near ambient levels. With the stage 2 changes I expect the car to run hotter temps as a result. yes there are many variables in the maps of the ECU of these newer cars and yes my tuning experience is not specific to ecoboost cars but I have tuned stand alones on several other turbo 4's in the past. My experience is telling me that the change in intercooler is meant to keep the other temperatures in the engine from running away and creating heat soak of not just the intercooler and charge temps but internal oil and coolant temps as well and with our small turbo that outputs exceptionally hot air that is a serious concern.

But what if you go to stage two and see no appreciable increase in oil/water or charge temps. If all of those temperatures are still within nominal ranges then where is the danger? I'm playing devils advocate here not because I am thick and think I am smarter. Its because I have not seen the data yet that shows me why I need this .IF. my charge/oil/coolant temps remain near stock running levels. If someone lived in a climate that was 40 degrees ambient why would they need an intercooler upgrade when someone who lived in an 80 degree climate would see higher operating temps even with an upgraded intercooler. at what point do these temps become a concern and warrant the install of an intercooler. We are not talking about running aggressive settings on low octane gas since the maps are both set for 91 octane. So the variable is simply temperatures since boost and octane remain the same am I correct or not?

and for the record I am not going to continue to run Stage 2 I was indeed just testing it on the commute into L.A early this morning and will switch it back before I do any real long term driving. I am just looking for the Why. If I want to check for myself the differences with the AP's logging feature what perimeters would you suggest I track across stage 0,1,2 to get the data I need to prove your point?

any inputs beyond the cobb suggested Boost, AFR, Ign Corr Cyl 1, Load Actual, CAT, Oil Temp

No, you weren't acting like a jerk-you're acting like you don't know what you're talking about. There's a difference. I understand your thought-process because it's the same thought-process that every other person uses to justify running stage 2 or stage 3 on their stage 1 parts. And no offense, but if you had tuning experience then I can't imagine that we would all be having this conversation right now.

I don't know what the differences are in the tunes on the FiST platform because I don't have my ATR for it yet, only the FoST. I would assume that the boost strategies are not the same though. Both of my ST's went straight to stage 3 so I don't have much data on anything below.

There is nothing for you to log to prove my point because Cobb created separate maps for a reason. A lot of inexperienced members seem to think that the staged upgrade path is just some conspiracy for them to sell more parts, but that's just not the case. I've seen the 'ambient temp' reasoning more times than I care to admit.

If you've tuned before then you should already know what needs to be logged for general or specific comparisons-there's little else for me to tell you. If you're just doing a general comparison then I would definitely at least add the other three ignition corrections. Log a few runs on each, load them to Datazap, and then post your links.

Fwiw, you're most likely not seeing any power being 'pulled' on your stage 1 tune-you're just seeing how the car operates in extreme temps. I've seen CAT's of around 150 degrees in my FoST. It's also worth noting that the logs Razor took were based an ethanol-blended fuel, which means it's a better-case scenario than you're discussing.

 

[BoostBumps]

Ignition Timing - Charge Air Temperature Compensations

Timing Compensations (CAT):

This is the base table for timing compensations based on Charge Air Temperature. The values in this table are multiplied by the Timing Comp. Mult. (CAT) table to allow fine adjustment in 3D form with RPM and Load.



This is the multiplier for timing compensations based on Charge Air Temperature. The values in this table are multiplied with the values Timing Comp. (CAT) table to create the final compensation.



Results for Different CATs:

CAT 70F = (+15.00 * 0.06) = +0.9 Degrees Added
CAT 100F = ( 00.00 * 0.06) = 0.0 Degrees Added
CAT 110F = (-25.00 * 0.06) = -1.5 Degrees Pulled
CAT 120F = (-43.75 * 0.06) = -2.6 Degrees Pulled

[HR][/HR]

Primary Differences between COBB stg1 OTS and COBB stg 2 OTS maps:

• +1.0 psi boost added (WGDC)
• ~ 2.0 degrees timing added lower Right Quadrant of Borderline Timing Tables (>1.3% load / > 4000rpm)
• Load Limits are slightly raised between each stage OTS map
• Power Demand Fuel Targets slightly richened by 0.2 AFR from stg1 to stg2 (2000~5500rpm)

 

[koozy]

It's more than timing that's different. I would also consider "Desired Fuel Target" a primary difference, a major one.

 

[BoostBumps]

It's more than timing that's different. I would also consider "Desired Fuel Target" a primary difference, a major one.

Yes...There is a slight difference but not really a huge difference between stg1 and stg2 (power demands)....

Stg2 is slightly richened by 0.2 AFR from 2000~5500rpm...

Timing changes are the most dominant changes made between each of the OTS maps...typically 1psi boost and +2 degrees (lower right quadrant) incrementally added for each of the OTS maps..

 

[koozy]

also add the wastegate table to the list, the boost profile has been raised between Stg 1 and 2. All of these slight differences are compounded together and tax a system that's not mechanically set up for it.

 

[BoostBumps]

also add the wastegate table to the list. All of these slight differences are compounded together and tax a system that's not mechanically set up for it.

yes..that's the +1 psi boost increase per stage I was referring too!


Primary Differences between COBB stg1 OTS and COBB stg 2 OTS maps:

+1.0 psi boost added (WGDC changes)

~ 2.0 degrees timing added lower Right Quadrant of Borderline Timing Tables (>1.3% load / > 4000rpm)

Load Limits are slightly raised between each stage OTS map

Power Demand Fuel Targets slightly richened by 0.2 AFR from stg1 to stg2 (2000~5500rpm)

 

[koozy]

Yep, the differences on the list added together is a significant change enough to differentiate between stages.

 

[BoostBumps]

Yep, the differences on the list added together is a significant change enough to differentiate between stages.

Agreed...really not a good idea to be advancing timing +2 degrees (stg1 to stg2) without first replacing the OEM IC with a more efficient IC! Especially with high summer ambient temps...Scorch!

 

[MegaBuster]

There are only 2 reasons the stock IC can be seen as unsuited for stage 2. The higher temps and the higher temp swing. If charge temps stay in check because its cold out or you dont place constant load on the system then its a non issue. If its the 30 degree charge air temp swing compaired to 8 on an upgraded unit then how is 2o degrees of temp swing a huge concern as to how it effects the rest of the system. I can see the swing being more the concern than thenoverall temp perhaps