Drivetrain Break-in 101

[pelotonracer2]

Hey Pelotonracer2,

Very good read with loads of useful information. Though, like some other posters, I was too late.

I picked up my 2016 FiST from a dealership earlier this year in SoCal with 300 miles on it. Yes, 300 miles on it already! Many, many test drives I guess. Anyway, I'm reaching about 5k on the odo, and I have a few mods (listed in my signature). Are these mods OK to have on the vehicle, or did I mod too early?

Thank you in advance.

- JR

Mods are fine...

 

[XanRules]

always nice to see i'm basically doing things right. Picked the car up yesterday and just rolled over 100 miles pulling into my driveway tonight after work/errands. Mix of highway and city driving, a couple hard pulls but mostly pretty varied normal driving, certainly more variety than i normally get on my commutes. Figured that was common sense. Last car was a BRZ with nearly 50k on it, zero oil consumption or problems the entire time I owned it.

 

[Speedboosted]

Breaking in aftermarket built motors compared to factory motors should be two different techniques and I think some people are getting them mixed up. On a factory motor with Moly rings, the easier break in is the way to go. Less chance of overheating the ring but of course you still want some combustion to happen.

On many aftermarket built motors, they're assembled with Steel rings which are very hard and require a lot of combustion to seat. Going soft on them causes a lot of oil consumption issues. I had L&M Race Engines build me a short block for the GT500 and I assembled the rest. They told me to fill it with fluids and fire it right off. Let it idle for a few seconds, then vary rpms for a couple minutes. Let it cool down, then drive it to the dyno or race track. Car made 900 whp a few weeks ago so I will continue to listen to them

 

[pelotonracer2]

Breaking in aftermarket built motors compared to factory motors should be two different techniques and I think some people are getting them mixed up. On a factory motor with Moly rings, the easier break in is the way to go. Less chance of overheating the ring but of course you still want some combustion to happen.

On many aftermarket built motors, they're assembled with Steel rings which are very hard and require a lot of combustion to seat. Going soft on them causes a lot of oil consumption issues. I had L&M Race Engines build me a short block for the GT500 and I assembled the rest. They told me to fill it with fluids and fire it right off. Let it idle for a few seconds, then vary rpms for a couple minutes. Let it cool down, then drive it to the dyno or race track. Car made 900 whp a few weeks ago so I will continue to listen to them

Ring material is only ONE variable. Bore material also plays a BIG part of ring seat, as does cross hatch angle (for oil retention), overall compression AND load. Ring seat technique on an iron bore and on a nikasil bore is a perfect example. Both bores need completely different technique to seat rings, and typically if you are using pistons with skirts that go round as they get to running temps (ie: aluminum pistons) some care will be needed not to fubar your bore when the parts are new. Also whether or not you are using gapless rings, and what kind of piston used and skirt design. I've seen plenty of race engines where a "hard" break-in was used and they don't typically last very long. Again, not important if you keep up with the additional maintenance.

While I would agree that break-in for a "race engine" is different, it is also for different reasons. When we did break-in on our race motors we didn't have time for a long run in. Sometimes we'd set it up to have ring seat in 10 minutes and then have to go race it. Longevity and long term reliability was not really important, since they'd get a new top end every other race and a full rebuild mid season, but I am talking about 1.2L to 1.6L (turbocharged/supercharged) engines making around 450hp in non automotive applications. Some of those re-rings would include a low angle cross hatch which speeds up ring seat at the expense of long term reliability. Most "engine builders" are not mechanical engineers. They know how to put something together and make power but often times they can't explain to you why something other than a tuning mistake would makes something break.

However, if you care about longevity.... spinning new bearings, rollers and other hard materials at 8,000 rpm with almost no time bedding in is a good reason they will pop sooner than later. We used to run stuff super hard with no break-in and then disassemble the entire drivetrain to look at wear. After seeing the results, 100's of times over, no one is going to convince me that a hard break-in is going to be beneficial. Typically ring seating takes less than 10 minutes and should be fully seated after 30 minutes. The higher the compression USUALLY the quicker this happens since you have higher cylinder pressures. Typically lower compression engines take longer to seat the rings than higher compression engines (but not always).

I always ask the question after someone says "my motor made xxx or xxxx amount of horsepower after I drove it like I stole it after a new motor was built" and I always follow up with "Yes, but how long did it last?" lol.

A motor that has gone through many heating/cooling cycles and multiple/different load scenarios is going to make more power on a dyno FOR A LONGER duration than a motor run for 30 minutes and then go full boogie. It'll also be much more reliable over a longer period of time.That's just a fact. In my experience when you rag the piss out of an engine from the get go they make great power at first, but then over time either break and don't perform on the dyno like they used to over time, whereas a car that has a meticulous break-in will dyno like crap at first, but continues to improve over time (and holds that peak power for MUCH longer). Sometimes you get a drivetrain that wasn't broken in right and they produce a LOT more heat (more friction = more heat). When moving parts don't properly fit together and their finishes are "rough" that's not conducive to making power (long term).

 

[pelotonracer2]

Cosworth DFV procedure. Yes that Ajax.

http://www.zrxoa.org/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=272470&d=1510320957

Link doesn't work.

 

[Quisp]

https://goo.gl/images/HY7f6W

 

[Rivy]

Glad I found this thread, I was just wondering about some additional details regarding break-in, warm up, oil changes, etc.

First of all I got my 2017 FiST this past Sunday with about 35ish miles on it. I had to drive about 80 or so miles after leaving the dealer to take my father home and then back to my place. So 120ish miles on the ODO after the first night. I drove it relatively light footed and no cruise control on the highway (won't use it until after 1000 miles).

Today I only have about 160 or so on it still, but I was wondering how important these early oil changes are? The manual doesn't say to do them early and the dealer (I know, not necessarily an expert) said that my first service interval would be at 10k - he even said something like "despite what any one tells you, you don't need to bring it in until you hit 10k." How many of you are actually doing these 100 ish mile oil changes and then again between 500-1000 miles? I have heard of doing one around the 1000 ish mile mark, but doing 2 that early seems possibly excessive...

I've been keeping it under 4k RPMs, no redline pulls or anything yet, but I didn't even think about keeping it below 3k as that did feel very slow, like I was babying the car. Overall I know I'm not going to pay close enough attention to keep it at specific RPMs for specific amounts of time, etc. I plan to just drive it easy and keep the revs low-ish until around 1000 miles.

Separately - I've noticed the temp gauge gets to "operating temp" very fast in this car. I would say that once I start it up the temp is reading 2 bars within about a minute. Then after maybe 1/4 to 1/2 a mile down the road it's showing a full 4/8 bars (the blue-lit gauge in the center of the cluster). No other car I've ever owned, during break-in or otherwise got to operating temp that quickly. Do these cars just warm up quickly or what?

I guess my questions overall are:
1. If I do just one early oil change before 10k or so - what mileage would everyone recommend? (Now at 160 ish? 500? 1000?)

2. My thought would be to go down to the dealer to have it done, but does anyone recommend something else? (that way I get the same oil and filter as what comes in the car)

3. Do all of our cars warm up quickly or is something else going on? (I've never seen my car get past the 4/8 bars on the temp gauge so I know it's not getting "too hot.")

4. Is everyone changing other fluids early as well? Differential? Transmission? Wouldn't these have particles in them also?

5. How much of the break-in procedures described here are just "good advice" vs. "FiST specific" - I ask because my wife has a 2017 Mazda CX-5 with around 200 miles on it (we just got that recently for her as well) and we've been driving it very easy as well and not using cruise control, etc. - her car is a 2.5L Naturally Aspirated motor, should I be planning to do an early oil change on hers as well? The dealer at Mazda told us her service interval is 7500 miles. If anything we plan to keep her car longer than the FiST as it's our "family" vehicle.

Thanks for any insights specific to my situation & cars. I appreciate it!

 

[pelotonracer2]

Glad I found this thread, I was just wondering about some additional details regarding break-in, warm up, oil changes, etc.

First of all I got my 2017 FiST this past Sunday with about 35ish miles on it. I had to drive about 80 or so miles after leaving the dealer to take my father home and then back to my place. So 120ish miles on the ODO after the first night. I drove it relatively light footed and no cruise control on the highway (won't use it until after 1000 miles).

Today I only have about 160 or so on it still, but I was wondering how important these early oil changes are? The manual doesn't say to do them early and the dealer (I know, not necessarily an expert) said that my first service interval would be at 10k - he even said something like "despite what any one tells you, you don't need to bring it in until you hit 10k." How many of you are actually doing these 100 ish mile oil changes and then again between 500-1000 miles? I have heard of doing one around the 1000 ish mile mark, but doing 2 that early seems possibly excessive...

I've been keeping it under 4k RPMs, no redline pulls or anything yet, but I didn't even think about keeping it below 3k as that did feel very slow, like I was babying the car. Overall I know I'm not going to pay close enough attention to keep it at specific RPMs for specific amounts of time, etc. I plan to just drive it easy and keep the revs low-ish until around 1000 miles.

Separately - I've noticed the temp gauge gets to "operating temp" very fast in this car. I would say that once I start it up the temp is reading 2 bars within about a minute. Then after maybe 1/4 to 1/2 a mile down the road it's showing a full 4/8 bars (the blue-lit gauge in the center of the cluster). No other car I've ever owned, during break-in or otherwise got to operating temp that quickly. Do these cars just warm up quickly or what?

I guess my questions overall are:
1. If I do just one early oil change before 10k or so - what mileage would everyone recommend? (Now at 160 ish? 500? 1000?)

2. My thought would be to go down to the dealer to have it done, but does anyone recommend something else? (that way I get the same oil and filter as what comes in the car)

3. Do all of our cars warm up quickly or is something else going on? (I've never seen my car get past the 4/8 bars on the temp gauge so I know it's not getting "too hot.")

4. Is everyone changing other fluids early as well? Differential? Transmission? Wouldn't these have particles in them also?

5. How much of the break-in procedures described here are just "good advice" vs. "FiST specific" - I ask because my wife has a 2017 Mazda CX-5 with around 200 miles on it (we just got that recently for her as well) and we've been driving it very easy as well and not using cruise control, etc. - her car is a 2.5L Naturally Aspirated motor, should I be planning to do an early oil change on hers as well? The dealer at Mazda told us her service interval is 7500 miles. If anything we plan to keep her car longer than the FiST as it's our "family" vehicle.

Thanks for any insights specific to my situation & cars. I appreciate it!

In my experience the earlier fluid changes make a big difference in longevity. I think you can get away with changing the transmission fluid around 5,000 miles. I highly recommend the Motul DCTF fluid for this transmission. The factory coolant temp gauge is not very accurate at all. After going 2 miles the gauge reads fully warmed but my Cobb AP says 150-160 degrees.

The advise I give is based on 15 years of wear and tear analysis, testing all kinds of scenarios, including "run it till it breaks" and then study the wear. I would take the vehicle somewhere else and have them change the oil frequently while it is new, then take it to the dealer at 7,000 miles.

 

[Rivy]

In my experience the earlier fluid changes make a big difference in longevity. I think you can get away with changing the transmission fluid around 5,000 miles. I highly recommend the Motul DCTF fluid for this transmission. The factory coolant temp gauge is not very accurate at all. After going 2 miles the gauge reads fully warmed but my Cobb AP says 150-160 degrees.

The advise I give is based on 15 years of wear and tear analysis, testing all kinds of scenarios, including "run it till it breaks" and then study the wear. I would take the vehicle somewhere else and have them change the oil frequently while it is new, then take it to the dealer at 7,000 miles.

Okay thanks, great info. You mentioned your AP only says 150-160 when the gauge shows it's warmed up, what's the actual fully heated operating temp?

Is there somewhere I can see what oil and filters to use during these early oil changes? Is it important to use the same as what's in the car?

One more quick question also - I remember back in the day when turbo timers were a thing, to circulate oil after driving the car for a minute or so before shutting it down. Is there any reason to let the engine idle after driving for a little bit or is all that a thing of the past?

I appreciate the insights!

 

[pelotonracer2]

Okay thanks, great info. You mentioned your AP only says 150-160 when the gauge shows it's warmed up, what's the actual fully heated operating temp?

Is there somewhere I can see what oil and filters to use during these early oil changes? Is it important to use the same as what's in the car?

One more quick question also - I remember back in the day when turbo timers were a thing, to circulate oil after driving the car for a minute or so before shutting it down. Is there any reason to let the engine idle after driving for a little bit or is all that a thing of the past?

I appreciate the insights!

Normal operating temps are 185-187 degrees. I see four bars at around 120 degrees on the oem gauge.

I'd use a good semi-synthetic oil. Most any filter will be ok, especially since you will be draining the oil at early intervals.

Turbo timers are a thing of the past, however it can still be beneficial to wait 15-20 seconds after hard use. This helps stabilize temps in other places in the drivetrain.

 

[Rivy]

Went and got the first early oil change today. Semi-synthetic on both my wife's new CX-5 (360 miles) and my FiST (200 miles). It's probably a bit of placebo, but damned if it didn't feel like the car revved more smoothly afterward. The guys at the oil change place were great and had us in and out super quickly - of course one of them had a 2015 Mustang GT and had all kinds of questions about the FiST, always fun to talk cars while you're getting your oil changed.

 

[pelotonracer2]

Went and got the first early oil change today. Semi-synthetic on both my wife's new CX-5 (360 miles) and my FiST (200 miles). It's probably a bit of placebo, but damned if it didn't feel like the car revved more smoothly afterward. The guys at the oil change place were great and had us in and out super quickly - of course one of them had a 2015 Mustang GT and had all kinds of questions about the FiST, always fun to talk cars while you're getting your oil changed.

I can assure you that it is beneficial to change the oil often during break-in. There is a lot of accelerated wear happening. If you send your oil to Blackstone for analysis, you will see much elevated particulates in the oil. If you fib and tell them you have 50,000 miles on your car and that the interval was 3,000+ miles, they will say it is very abnormal. LOL

 

[Rivy]

I can assure you that it is beneficial to change the oil often during break-in. There is a lot of accelerated wear happening. If you send your oil to Blackstone for analysis, you will see much elevated particulates in the oil. If you fib and tell them you have 50,000 miles on your car and that the interval was 3,000+ miles, they will say it is very abnormal. LOL

Well I think you made a believer out of me, haha.

 

[Quisp]

In my experience the earlier fluid changes make a big difference in longevity. I think you can get away with changing the transmission fluid around 5,000 miles. I highly recommend the Motul DCTF fluid for this transmission. The factory coolant temp gauge is not very accurate at all. After going 2 miles the gauge reads fully warmed but my Cobb AP says 150-160 degrees.

The advise I give is based on 15 years of wear and tear analysis, testing all kinds of scenarios, including "run it till it breaks" and then study the wear. I would take the vehicle somewhere else and have them change the oil frequently while it is new, then take it to the dealer at 7,000 miles.

What kinds of damages or failures did you see ? What were the change intervals?

 

[freebird_78]

Checking the fluids on the new 2017 FiST (born on 9-27-17). Noticed the oil color is unlike any new vehicle I've ever seen. It's basically the color of the coolant (orangish-pinkish color). Freaked me out when I saw it. Only has 30 miles on it. Assuming it's an additive package in the oil for break-in purposes? Was going to change the oil at 500 miles, but now starting to have second thoughts after seeing this weird oil color. Guessing I should leave (again, what I presume) is the additive package do it's thing for a bit longer.

Thoughts?

 

[pelotonracer2]

Checking the fluids on the new 2017 FiST (born on 9-27-17). Noticed the oil color is unlike any new vehicle I've ever seen. It's basically the color of the coolant (orangish-pinkish color). Freaked me out when I saw it. Only has 30 miles on it. Assuming it's an additive package in the oil for break-in purposes? Was going to change the oil at 500 miles, but now starting to have second thoughts after seeing this weird oil color. Guessing I should leave (again, what I presume) is the additive package do it's thing for a bit longer.

Thoughts?

Probably, but this isn't the first time I've heard this. Mine looked the same as yours. You'd be surprised what particulates you might find in your oil at this stage. That's why it's a good idea to get it out sooner instead of later. If you change your oil often and don't rag the piss out of it, it doesn't matter what they put in the oil. I think I changed my oil at 100 miles, 500 miles, 1,000 miles, 3,000 miles and then every 5,000 after that. 43,000 miles and it runs great and gets awesome fuel economy. I am nowhere near stock either. Absolutely no issues...

 

[pelotonracer2]

What kinds of damages or failures did you see ? What were the change intervals?

Back then we were changing oil at 3,000 miles (it was the industry standard), but we also did tests where we never changed the oil just to find what would fail first.

 

[Quisp]

Back then we were changing oil at 3,000 miles (it was the industry standard), but we also did tests where we never changed the oil just to find what would fail first.

Early 70's ?

 

[pelotonracer2]

Early 70's ?

No. LOL. Up until around 2005-2006. It's interesting enough that synthetic oils just 10 years ago were actually "man made" and not petroleum based. Applications that required synthetic oil had longer drain intervals.

 

[M-Sport fan]

Yes, they used many more ester (and PAO) base stocks back then since the GTLs, XOM Visom, and other ultra hydrocracked Group 3+ base stocks were not yet developed.