x37-47 / 2554-60 / C39 / ST280 - Small Turbo Comparison Thread

[BoostBumps]

If the upgrade provides any consistent and measurable difference over my current x37, I'll buy it just for the sake of Bryan's customer service and supportive forum presence. If people will touch 300+ with X37 spool characteristics, this will be a winner for sure.

Agreed...If the new C39 is able to demonstrate similar spool characteristics compared to the x-37 I'd be pleased...I'm not as obsessed as some with seeing +300whp numbers...+250whp on ACN91 pump along with a quick spool response would more than satisfy my needs...

 

[Crooked Letta]

Yup, same spool as the X-37 but 260+whp on 93 is my goal and then Meth down the road

 

[frankiefiesta]

Well, the compressor wheel is bigger, so I'd expect spool to be effected a bit. Unless is SS has something up his sleeve

 

[Crooked Letta]

Well, the compressor wheel is bigger, so I'd expect spool to be effected a bit. Unless is SS has something up his sleeve

Inconel

 

[Sourskittle]

Wheel weight difference is 9 grams. That does not tell you the wind resistance of the wheel, but it's not like the cyborg was super laggy to begin with.

Think of it like this....
The turbine wheel GENERATES POWER to a shaft. Any given wheel can only generate so much POWER ( torque and hp type power ). So.. A smaller turbine, trying to power a larger motor ( the cyborg comp wheel) picked up some lag. The stock turbine just didn't have quiet enough torque to twist the large comp wheel like it did the stock comp wheel. So it added a bit of lag. Enter the new turbine wheel. It's larger size can generate more torque than the stock sized turbine, meaning it can twist that larger comp wheel more effectively.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[TempeST]

Now, I only knew about the peron twinscroll. An exciting flavor of the week but once the dyno charts showed the shitty spool, that thread died off pretty quickly. lol Thanks to you (and Google) I'm bumping the C39 to 2nd the place as the Peron hybrid also sports porting & compressor/turbine upgrades BUT is CNC machined. I'm under the assumption that the C39 (and x37 for that matter) is ported by hand... I'm all for the personal touch but I'm I.T. and can't ignore the consistency and reliability of CNC machining.

So my input on this, Peron never posted a Boost graph so how do you know what spool does? Secondly, their smaller runner single scroll kit spools about the same when referencing the power curves. You also have to look at the power, the Peron Single scroll looks to run out around 280whp, when their Twin scroll is limited to the fuel system and shows ~340whp. I am only talking technically here, but my DHM EFR kit spools around 3800 and I still believe it can come on a little sooner with some more time and investment behind the tune. The win scroll is a larger A/R compared to the single scroll, so to think that it can spool the same as a smaller a/r it's good. But this is all relative. it is unproven other than 1 single customer so far that I have seen and from talking to them they are currently working on the 6758 and 7163 twin scrolls. so until someone post a datazap or anything of the boost curve you really have no proof of "shitty spool", relatively. To me shitty spool would be later than 4500rpm. but to someone else it could be less than instant. so it's all relative. plus the twin scroll kit is rather expensive.

so beyond my spilling of the beans, Go Cyborg 39! haha

 

[LilPartyBox]

you're right, peron never posted a boost curve but dyno charts were posted and I wasn't the only one disappointed by the spool. Maybe I just had unrealistic expectations. I've learned a bit more of the technical bits about turbos since then and you make great point. Perhaps for the given a/r, the spool may be respectable or even dam good. Shitty is relative, I know.

For my goals, the spool was more than I'm willing to wait for. The biggest turbo I've ever done was on a dsm eclipse running an 18G with a 3" turbo back and an hks piggy back (remember those It spooled at about 3300, but what a kick in the ass when it did! But I'm not looking for that in this car. I want spool as close to stock as possible. I'm willing to sacrifice max power and top end for it. hence why, imho , the twin scroll was disappointing. The C39 will likely be my kit unless Peron responds to my inquiry and money falls from the sky lol Even there hybrid is pricey.

 

[TempeST]

Haha, no smart ass remarks were meant in my post. And honestly I think we all expected more from it. however when you look at the power it makes at any given rpmit makes more power than the X37 at 3000+ rpm, so even if it isn't spooled till 4000 you get the same kick in the pants from 3000 on. again this is getting technical, but "spool" is also relative as Hijinx has said many times before as well. turbo X could be spooled by 2500rpms and max out at 250whp where turbo Y doesn't spool till 3500 rpms but it makes that same 250whp at the same 2500rpms but it doesn't hit peak boost until 3500 and then tops out much higher as well say 320whp.

This is why a lot of guys don't like "BIG" turbo kits, because they think that because it spools later there is no power in the lower rpm band which isn't true until you start getting really big for this 1.6l platform. my turbo makes the same power as the x37 at 3000, and then maxes out higher too, so Technically I have the "powerband" as the x37 but way more power in that power band. also I think price has a lot to do with the choices as well. but most people aren't looking at what power it makes in the low RPMs. which anything below 2500 the x37 will have more. but above that amount at 2501+(again relative, I haven't double checkied it recently.) the Peron EFR kit has more all the way to the end. so with this said the peron kit makes the same power as the x37 at only 15-17 psi(this is a total guess I know they are running like 26psi) so again its all relative



But as you are saying, if you are looking for PEAK boost at a certain low RPM then yes you will need to look into a smaller hybrid style turbo. such as the X37/cyborg/cyborg39/s242etc.

 

[Crooked Letta]

Haha, no smart ass remarks were meant in my post. And honestly I think we all expected more from it. however when you look at the power it makes at any given rpmit makes more power than the X37 at 3000+ rpm, so even if it isn't spooled till 4000 you get the same kick in the pants from 3000 on. again this is getting technical, but "spool" is also relative as Hijinx has said many times before as well. turbo X could be spooled by 2500rpms and max out at 250whp where turbo Y doesn't spool till 3500 rpms but it makes that same 250whp at the same 2500rpms but it doesn't hit peak boost until 3500 and then tops out much higher as well say 320whp.

This is why a lot of guys don't like "BIG" turbo kits, because they think that because it spools later there is no power in the lower rpm band which isn't true until you start getting really big for this 1.6l platform. my turbo makes the same power as the x37 at 3000, and then maxes out higher too, so Technically I have the "powerband" as the x37 but way more power in that power band. also I think price has a lot to do with the choices as well. but most people aren't looking at what power it makes in the low RPMs. which anything below 2500 the x37 will have more. but above that amount at 2501+(again relative, I haven't double checkied it recently.) the Peron EFR kit has more all the way to the end. so with this said the peron kit makes the same power as the x37 at only 15-17 psi(this is a total guess I know they are running like 26psi) so again its all relative



But as you are saying, if you are looking for PEAK boost at a certain low RPM then yes you will need to look into a smaller hybrid style turbo. such as the X37/cyborg/cyborg39/s242etc.

Turbo's are not magic although Jeremy Clarkson would say witchcraft is involved lol. They are a trade off, the bigger the turbo the more you move the power band up. It is about balance and you can have a wide power band with a big turbo by extended the redline. This is how you make a small engine make big power for more then 2k rpms. When you shove a large turbo at a small engine you really are not using it to its full potential. Extending the redline has many benefits and relates to what is below as to why.

I'm sure you are also aware the statement made referencing 250whp @ 2500 rpms is 530WTQ. I get what your saying but your math is way off. TQ is how you determine spool. TQ is HP but with mechanical advantage as we are talking about TQ (A rotational force) calculated in to HP.

 

[TempeST]

Turbo's are not magic although Jeremy Clarkson would say witchcraft is involved lol. They are a trade off, the bigger the turbo the more you move the power band up. It is about balance and you can have a wide power band with a big turbo by extended the redline. This is how you make a small engine make big power for more then 2k rpms. When you shove a large turbo at a small engine you really are not using it to its full potential. Extending the redline has many benefits and relates to what is below as to why.

I'm sure you are also aware the statement made referencing 250whp @ 2500 rpms is 530WTQ. I get what your saying but your math is way off. TQ is how you determine spool. TQ is HP but with mechanical advantage as we are talking about TQ (A rotational force) calculated in to HP.

Lol at Jeremy Clarkson quote.

And yes I am well aware of that statement as well. and you are right. I know my math is way off. I was only speaking in a complete un related to any kind ofturbo way. Only saying that most people are looking for when the turbo "spools" rather than what the turbo makes at what given RPM (HP or TQ) Most people see a turbo that is fully "spooled" by 2500 rpm and are like "yeah I want that" when in reality another turbo that is half spooled at that point makes the same HP/TQ but still has room to go. Generally speaking however, Tq moves to the right and up the larger the turbo is, but that is NOT always the case. Basically the point I was making is that instead of looking at spool for a given turbo, you need to see the power curves and justify it as it is. spool should not be a main concern, where your power delivery should be.

 

[Hijinx]

Turbo's are not magic although Jeremy Clarkson would say witchcraft is involved lol. They are a trade off, the bigger the turbo the more you move the power band up. It is about balance and you can have a wide power band with a big turbo by extended the redline. This is how you make a small engine make big power for more then 2k rpms. When you shove a large turbo at a small engine you really are not using it to its full potential. Extending the redline has many benefits and relates to what is below as to why.

So you're aware, the ECU is currently hard coded to a 7700rpm redline. 7400rpm is the safety net. A turbo that is "too big" for us is the GTX2871r. With what we know, the GTX2867r is as big as you want to go. The GTX2860r and 63r provide the best response (depending on the setup). I only bring it up because I've noticed you've spoken about extending the redline a few times.

 

[Sekred]

Haha, no smart ass remarks were meant in my post. And honestly I think we all expected more from it. however when you look at the power it makes at any given rpmit makes more power than the X37 at 3000+ rpm, so even if it isn't spooled till 4000 you get the same kick in the pants from 3000 on. again this is getting technical, but "spool" is also relative as Hijinx has said many times before as well. turbo X could be spooled by 2500rpms and max out at 250whp where turbo Y doesn't spool till 3500 rpms but it makes that same 250whp at the same 2500rpms but it doesn't hit peak boost until 3500 and then tops out much higher as well say 320whp.

This is why a lot of guys don't like "BIG" turbo kits, because they think that because it spools later there is no power in the lower rpm band which isn't true until you start getting really big for this 1.6l platform. my turbo makes the same power as the x37 at 3000, and then maxes out higher too, so Technically I have the "powerband" as the x37 but way more power in that power band. also I think price has a lot to do with the choices as well. but most people aren't looking at what power it makes in the low RPMs. which anything below 2500 the x37 will have more. but above that amount at 2501+(again relative, I haven't double checkied it recently.) the Peron EFR kit has more all the way to the end. so with this said the peron kit makes the same power as the x37 at only 15-17 psi(this is a total guess I know they are running like 26psi) so again its all relative



But as you are saying, if you are looking for PEAK boost at a certain low RPM then yes you will need to look into a smaller hybrid style turbo. such as the X37/cyborg/cyborg39/s242etc.

Hi TempeST,

Have you done any logs on airflow. What are you peaking at in lbs/min?.

 

[TempeST]

So you're aware, the ECU is currently hard coded to a 7700rpm redline. 7400rpm is the safety net. A turbo that is "too big" for us is the GTX2871r. With what we know, the GTX2867r is as big as you want to go. The GTX2860r and 63r provide the best response (depending on the setup). I only bring it up because I've noticed you've spoken about extending the redline a few times.

This ^^ that 360R kit is magic. I can't wait to get my Aux fuel to compare the EFR
[MENTION=62]Sekred[/MENTION], I have not, but I can get one tonight to show. My car is not in the best running order right now because of a boost problem we are having. I'll let you know how it goes tonight when I get a log.

 

[Crooked Letta]

So you're aware, the ECU is currently hard coded to a 7700rpm redline. 7400rpm is the safety net. A turbo that is "too big" for us is the GTX2871r. With what we know, the GTX2867r is as big as you want to go. The GTX2860r and 63r provide the best response (depending on the setup). I only bring it up because I've noticed you've spoken about extending the redline a few times.

No I did not know that and thank you. I have only been researching this platform for 2 weeks so always feel free to fill me in on things like this Sadly this is an EB engine and as with any EB some pretty complex things like this. I assumed it was possible into low 8's due to parts available quoting their ability and to be balanced to this point. Technology can be great but Ford likes to do these things a lot with their ECU's. The RS has similar issues that is still debatable if anything can be done about them.

 

[Hijinx]

Haha, no smart ass remarks were meant in my post. And honestly I think we all expected more from it. however when you look at the power it makes at any given rpmit makes more power than the X37 at 3000+ rpm, so even if it isn't spooled till 4000 you get the same kick in the pants from 3000 on. again this is getting technical, but "spool" is also relative as Hijinx has said many times before as well. turbo X could be spooled by 2500rpms and max out at 250whp where turbo Y doesn't spool till 3500 rpms but it makes that same 250whp at the same 2500rpms but it doesn't hit peak boost until 3500 and then tops out much higher as well say 320whp.

This is why a lot of guys don't like "BIG" turbo kits, because they think that because it spools later there is no power in the lower rpm band which isn't true until you start getting really big for this 1.6l platform. my turbo makes the same power as the x37 at 3000, and then maxes out higher too, so Technically I have the "powerband" as the x37 but way more power in that power band. also I think price has a lot to do with the choices as well. but most people aren't looking at what power it makes in the low RPMs. which anything below 2500 the x37 will have more. but above that amount at 2501+(again relative, I haven't double checkied it recently.) the Peron EFR kit has more all the way to the end. so with this said the peron kit makes the same power as the x37 at only 15-17 psi(this is a total guess I know they are running like 26psi) so again its all relative



But as you are saying, if you are looking for PEAK boost at a certain low RPM then yes you will need to look into a smaller hybrid style turbo. such as the X37/cyborg/cyborg39/s242etc.

In addition to this, I have this huge thread where I dropped datalogs covering 2 years of modding... You can see some examples of what TempeST has said. Also, of particular note, I test drove a STOCK Fiesta ST this past weekend for kicks. In my opinion, stock vs big turbo, they feel the same driving around town doing the daily thing. But, when you open the car up, they're polar opposites. On the stock turbo you get a quick jolt of fun, and then boredom sets in. On big turbo, going WOT is just the beginning of the fun. Wait 2 seconds, and your adrenaline will be through the roof. Until you've been on both sides of the track with the Fiesta ST, I can guarantee you that you DON'T know what you're talking about (this is NOT a Honda) by just looking at vDynos. Take a look at the data, measure time and acceleration from different rpms, boost, etc and you'll see there's not a huge difference until the end.

 

[TempeST]

Again THIS^^ I get to drive stock turbo fiestas all the time at our meets, and other than the initial WEE the second after the "wee" its over. I do not regret going big turbo at all. I actually get better gas mileage now too. because it is easier to stay out of boost. But once in boost its just a whole different car.
[MENTION=62]Sekred[/MENTION] just checked a couple logs, it shows around 31-32lbs/min Airflow mass, and about 35-37lb/min Turbine Flow. this is still stock fuel system and no other fuel additives or anything.

 

[Sekred]

Again THIS^^ I get to drive stock turbo fiestas all the time at our meets, and other than the initial WEE the second after the "wee" its over. I do not regret going big turbo at all. I actually get better gas mileage now too. because it is easier to stay out of boost. But once in boost its just a whole different car.
[MENTION=62]Sekred[/MENTION] just checked a couple logs, it shows around 31-32lbs/min Airflow mass, and about 35-37lb/min Turbine Flow. this is still stock fuel system and no other fuel additives or anything.

Thanks mate, very similar to my logs (mass airflow).

 

[BoostBumps]

FYI...

A New Turbo Upgrade Poll / Thread was added today...

Which Turbo Upgrade do you have installed on your Fiesta ST?

 

[UtahST]

Oh I know. we talked about it already. but then I would have to pay a shop to take mine off throw my stock back on, send Brian mine, and then do the same again for the new one. it would end up costing me more for him to upgrade mine, then to just buy a new one and sell mine on the side for a few hundred bucks.

I wish I could just do this, it would be easier for sure. but well see what happens.

If you sell your Cyborg let me know. I'll be buying around Christmas time

Sent from my SM-G925V using Tapatalk

 

[LilPartyBox]

I reached out to Peron for information on their "V1" hybrid turbo. Here's the disappointing conversation


Me:

I'm in the states and own a 2016 Ford Fiesta ST. I am interested in the V1 hybrid turbo kit and have a few questions. 1 - What is the warranty on the kit? 2 - Will you be able to make adjustments to the tune to run on an American ST? If not, how much of a price reduction would their be? 3. will this kit bolt onto the stock manifold? Different topic... The intake you offer for this platform is exactly what I'm looking for but changes to the 2016 US emissions system have created a need for a check valve of sorts to prevent a CEL. Are you aware of this and is your intake fully compatible with the '16s? Thanks for your time. I look forward to your response.

Peron's response:

Charlie Orpen <charlie@peron-automotive.co.uk>
Oct 1 (6 days ago)

to me,

Hello,

Thank you for the email and sorry for the delayed response.

Sadly, we do not support the USDM with product supply at this time.

We currently working with a new dealers to setup a PERON Distributor for North America.

There are also subtle differences between the EU Fiesta ST and your domestic vehicles, for example the intake kits on our cars have not changed for MY2016 cars.

Kind regards,

Charlie Orpen

Sales Director
PERON Ltd
Akrapovic UK Agent
Tel: 0845 68 09 342
Fax: 0845 68 09 347

Buuuut, maybe by the time I have the funds they'll have a distributor