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Stance General Discussion
- Thread starter dyn085
- Start date
Thread Starter
#22
The problem is that there is no 'real' definition of stance. It is more about how the entire car comes together and flows than just wheel fitment. There are cars that are considered stanced with tuck, flush, and poke fitments, some with +sized wheels, -sized wheels, extreme stretch, mild stretch, excessive camber, minimal to no camber, static/air/springs, new models and old...it's just a very broad spectrum. Very much like a race car, which can be road, off-road, drag, auto-x, NASCAR, F1, etc., it's just a loosely-defined term.
![[popcorn]](/images/smilies/popcorn.gif "Popcorn [popcorn]")
this is getting good!
Thread Starter
#27
I honestly doubt it considering the fact that the overall scene is still growing.
And this is a very closed-minded way of thinking. While some stance would qualify (Bozosuku, Hellaflush, etc.), many would not (Flush, Battle Stance, etc.). Just like you prefer to see your car sitting a certain way, so does everyone else. The difference is that no one is judging you for your personal tastes and trying to tell you you're wrong for having them.
In contrast, to me 'real car people' are accepting of the fact that other 'real car people' have different tastes and embrace that. They may not choose that vehicle or follow a similar modification path on their car, but they can appreciate someone being interested in cars beyond plastidip and AutoZone sticky vents. It's a lifestyle and there is no right or wrong choice.
And this is a very closed-minded way of thinking. While some stance would qualify (Bozosuku, Hellaflush, etc.), many would not (Flush, Battle Stance, etc.). Just like you prefer to see your car sitting a certain way, so does everyone else. The difference is that no one is judging you for your personal tastes and trying to tell you you're wrong for having them.
In contrast, to me 'real car people' are accepting of the fact that other 'real car people' have different tastes and embrace that. They may not choose that vehicle or follow a similar modification path on their car, but they can appreciate someone being interested in cars beyond plastidip and AutoZone sticky vents. It's a lifestyle and there is no right or wrong choice.
Thread Starter
#31
I don't understand. Your argument that the scene that the scene will die in a couple years is supposed to be substantiated with a movie that was originally released 13 years ago, was based on a car scene that existed for many years prior, is still releasing movies based on the populations desire to see them, and if which the same or similar cars still exist and are being built to this day (albeit minus the crazy decals [for the most part])?
People thought that lowriders were just a phase or a trend too.
[video=youtube_share;wPOyvj6PDmk]http://youtu.be/wPOyvj6PDmk[/video]
People thought that lowriders were just a phase or a trend too.
[video=youtube_share;wPOyvj6PDmk]http://youtu.be/wPOyvj6PDmk[/video]
After reviewing this entire thread I decided to condense my stand into one post as there is one major issue that is the only one that really matters to me, safety for all of us on our roads. This includes all types of vehicles and mods and or lack of proper maintenance but we are on the Stance forum so this just talks about Stance issues.
--------------
It is your vehicle, mod it as you desire, please consider the info below and respond in a logical way if you can as I would really like to hear it, most sincerely so.
If a car has been modified like that Subie by being lowered, wider wheels and tires, flush or even rolled fenders, or even rolled and pulled to get the tires and wheels both under the fenders, the geometry is setup to handle properly, then that is how I have done things for decades before anybody used the term "Stance" and I love it. I was doing this before some members here Dad's were born and doing so now to my ST
I did not realize the term is now used in various ways as my take on it was wheels too wide for the tires or tires to narrow for the wheels, wheels sticking outside fenders, tires tucked under, huge camber, lowered so far the suspension does not work properly, far to much camber, etc..that is the "Stance" I do not agree with because it is purely physics, this is not my personal stand, it is fundamental truth.
Do anything you want to your vehicle, as long as it is safe, great, glad you are doing so and not like the the crowd. Do unsafe things then it goes beyond personal as is potentially dangerous to others and we have a responsibility for everyone's safety, not just our own, we do not have the right to endanger others on publicly owned roads.
If you can show otherwise I would love to hear it as I have not seen anything substantial to disprove the point. The only arguments I have seen are based on personal preference, not on science. I will listen when faced with factual data, until then the version of "Stance" I see with unsafe modifications simply cannot be deemed acceptable on our roads and it is why in some places cars are ticketed, maybe even impounded, etc....they should be.
-----------------------
Here is an option, trailer the car to shows as most show cars are not built to drive properly so why take the chance of damaging it.
Another option, some may do at least part of it this it seems: Bag it, put on some safe wheels and tires, raise it up to where it has known proper geometry, drive to the event, swap the wheels and tires and let the air out (toe in will normally change quite a bit, pre mark everything and it is easy to correct it for the show and the go, I have done this on many street/track car builds but mostly I just change camber and toe as my lowering works for both safely and properly.
Now you can have your stance at shows, which it seems that is the only safe place to do so and what it is done for, to show it off. Raised for the street so easier on the chassis, safer, less chance of damaging anything and have more fun driving it.
I would love to hear a rational argument on this perspective, physics versus..........
Most sincerely,
Rick
--------------
It is your vehicle, mod it as you desire, please consider the info below and respond in a logical way if you can as I would really like to hear it, most sincerely so.
If a car has been modified like that Subie by being lowered, wider wheels and tires, flush or even rolled fenders, or even rolled and pulled to get the tires and wheels both under the fenders, the geometry is setup to handle properly, then that is how I have done things for decades before anybody used the term "Stance" and I love it. I was doing this before some members here Dad's were born and doing so now to my ST
I did not realize the term is now used in various ways as my take on it was wheels too wide for the tires or tires to narrow for the wheels, wheels sticking outside fenders, tires tucked under, huge camber, lowered so far the suspension does not work properly, far to much camber, etc..that is the "Stance" I do not agree with because it is purely physics, this is not my personal stand, it is fundamental truth.
Do anything you want to your vehicle, as long as it is safe, great, glad you are doing so and not like the the crowd. Do unsafe things then it goes beyond personal as is potentially dangerous to others and we have a responsibility for everyone's safety, not just our own, we do not have the right to endanger others on publicly owned roads.
If you can show otherwise I would love to hear it as I have not seen anything substantial to disprove the point. The only arguments I have seen are based on personal preference, not on science. I will listen when faced with factual data, until then the version of "Stance" I see with unsafe modifications simply cannot be deemed acceptable on our roads and it is why in some places cars are ticketed, maybe even impounded, etc....they should be.
-----------------------
Here is an option, trailer the car to shows as most show cars are not built to drive properly so why take the chance of damaging it.
Another option, some may do at least part of it this it seems: Bag it, put on some safe wheels and tires, raise it up to where it has known proper geometry, drive to the event, swap the wheels and tires and let the air out (toe in will normally change quite a bit, pre mark everything and it is easy to correct it for the show and the go, I have done this on many street/track car builds but mostly I just change camber and toe as my lowering works for both safely and properly.
Now you can have your stance at shows, which it seems that is the only safe place to do so and what it is done for, to show it off. Raised for the street so easier on the chassis, safer, less chance of damaging anything and have more fun driving it.
I would love to hear a rational argument on this perspective, physics versus..........
Most sincerely,
Rick
I would probably have he rear of the Subie just a bit lower as it sits the weight is forward biased in an already front heavy car, it would work better withe more weight on the rear. I loved the raked look but understand the results of doing so is not always conducive to optimizing the performance.
It is great for aerodynamics though
It is great for aerodynamics though
Thread Starter
#37
I'm not worked up in the slightest. This is a discussion thread and I'm simply discussing-any emotion you think you're reading isn't there, trust me. I enjoy debate and seeing both sides of a story, so much so that I will occasionally argue a side that I don't necessarily agree with just to see how well someone can debate their side of a topic.
As stated above, don't add emotion to my posts and you'll probably understand a bit more on where I'm coming from and my 'side' of the discussion. By no means do I consider myself an 'expert' on the topic nor do I expect anyone to think that I am. I'm simply a car guy that likes vehicles of pretty much all shapes and colors, fast or slow, raised or lowered, etc.
You bring up safety a lot and if you've read my posts elsewhere then you should know that that is one of my primary concerns. I am an aircraft mechanic by trade and safety is always my primary concern. I've seen very unsafe decisions made within the stance community that I don't condone and, generally speaking, neither does the rest of the community. But just like any community, there are always bad apples within the bunch.
Not that there is specific data to cite or fall-back on, but I would be willing to bet that there are more deaths and injuries per year due to racing and cars that are set up to race than there is due to a car being set up for stance and driven accordingly. Generally speaking, drivers of stanced vehicles are much more aware of their environment and surroundings due to vehicular preservation. They think further ahead on route-planning, drive slower due to possible obstacles/hazards, and leave larger gaps in traffic to maximize the possibility of being able to avoid issues that they encounter.
On the other side of that, people that modify strictly based on performance are generally more likely to take on risk while driving. How many times have you seen someone post about their recent 'kill', and how many do you think are honestly from street racing and not done in a controlled environment like a racetrack or drag-strip? How many times do people post about or infer that they are driving at excessive speeds?
There is no debate on whether a lowered or stanced vehicle is less likely to be in an 'optimal' geometry because they aren't. Trying to convince people otherwise would only be lies, but to what degree is that going to cause an accident? It may handle poorly in a race setting but that doesn't make it dangerous when driven normally.
You want to discuss numbers and data and I understand that, but realistically it just doesn't exist outside of suspension geometry, which I've already conceded to.
Unfortunately though, by your words this vehicle is unsafe and not set up to 'optimal' geometry-
I condensed everything I have to say about this on page 4, please read and comment on it as would love to hear each side in a logical and reasonable way, I did my best to turn off my emotions and only go by logic and reason so I ask that you do the same.
Thanks
Rick
Thanks
Rick
You bring up safety a lot and if you've read my posts elsewhere then you should know that that is one of my primary concerns. I am an aircraft mechanic by trade and safety is always my primary concern. I've seen very unsafe decisions made within the stance community that I don't condone and, generally speaking, neither does the rest of the community. But just like any community, there are always bad apples within the bunch.
Not that there is specific data to cite or fall-back on, but I would be willing to bet that there are more deaths and injuries per year due to racing and cars that are set up to race than there is due to a car being set up for stance and driven accordingly. Generally speaking, drivers of stanced vehicles are much more aware of their environment and surroundings due to vehicular preservation. They think further ahead on route-planning, drive slower due to possible obstacles/hazards, and leave larger gaps in traffic to maximize the possibility of being able to avoid issues that they encounter.
On the other side of that, people that modify strictly based on performance are generally more likely to take on risk while driving. How many times have you seen someone post about their recent 'kill', and how many do you think are honestly from street racing and not done in a controlled environment like a racetrack or drag-strip? How many times do people post about or infer that they are driving at excessive speeds?
There is no debate on whether a lowered or stanced vehicle is less likely to be in an 'optimal' geometry because they aren't. Trying to convince people otherwise would only be lies, but to what degree is that going to cause an accident? It may handle poorly in a race setting but that doesn't make it dangerous when driven normally.
You want to discuss numbers and data and I understand that, but realistically it just doesn't exist outside of suspension geometry, which I've already conceded to.
Unfortunately though, by your words this vehicle is unsafe and not set up to 'optimal' geometry-
I guess I could of worded what I said a bit better in that I am limiting my conversation to purely the physics involved so asking anyone responding to my post to do so as well so we can keep the attitudes, mine as well, at bay
I am not singling anybody out, it is absolutely in general that I bring this up and in general what is being done to address these issues.
I think the term Stance is used to a much broader degree than I knew before, to me it is the really out there approach with super skinny tires of super wide wheels, very low drop with very compromised geometry and far to much camber, that is what comes to mind. If the term in more general in nature and now includes other aspects I am comfortable with I want it known. I support most anything to do with lowering a car, just not things that are obviously causing safety issues.
And, I do absolutely agree about the real menaces out there, far to much power, far to little self control.....racing is for race tracks, not the street but this is about Stance and the issues of just going to far with it so back on topic, please
You have given some good answers and I appreciate that.
If a car has enough suspension travel to not bottom out, the geometry is corrected, enough sidewall support and depth, enough contact patch on the ground, it can be quite low and quite safe. The Camaro, if they have compensated for the geometry may be incredibly great handling car. I have avoided more than my fair share of knuckleheads over the years because my well modified, quick, great handing car was able to avoid them, in a lessor car, might not of worked out so well. I would of called the Camaro lowered, not Stance, as that is a term I have used and done for decades, I would not group it into what I consider Stanced in the least.
Though not a great deal of sidewall height it looks adequate, from what I can see the camber is good, enough tire width to be properly supported by the rim, it is not slammed on the ground, it looks more like the things I do, looks great Of course it is a convertible with out a roll bar and an old car with little structural support for side impacts, etc...something else to consider in overall safety.
I would have much lighter wheels though like the 18x13 rear and 18x10.5 on the widebody Vette convertible I built, custom CCW monoblocks, TUV rated which is the highest rating you can get and fat sticky tires with just a little stretch front and rear for the best combination of support, grip, feedback and safety and very low weight for the size as weight effects ever aspect of performance, ride quality as well and I drove it like the grandpa I am nearly always as the performance was so high it was not safe to take it anywhere near it's potential on public roads, why I parted ways with it, ended up just taking up space and hardly drove it. When I did drive it the attention it received was huge but I did not buy or build it for that, I did it because I always wanted a Vette and finally could have one the way I thought I wanted it.
-----------------
To me anytime a vehicle, any type of vehicle, is purposely or unknowningly degraded in handling, brakes, or any other safety area is simply not a wise thing to do, we cannot control everything out there and the idiots texting while eating or putting on makeup or to many valiums, or......
I am not singling anybody out, it is absolutely in general that I bring this up and in general what is being done to address these issues.
I think the term Stance is used to a much broader degree than I knew before, to me it is the really out there approach with super skinny tires of super wide wheels, very low drop with very compromised geometry and far to much camber, that is what comes to mind. If the term in more general in nature and now includes other aspects I am comfortable with I want it known. I support most anything to do with lowering a car, just not things that are obviously causing safety issues.
And, I do absolutely agree about the real menaces out there, far to much power, far to little self control.....racing is for race tracks, not the street but this is about Stance and the issues of just going to far with it so back on topic, please
You have given some good answers and I appreciate that.
If a car has enough suspension travel to not bottom out, the geometry is corrected, enough sidewall support and depth, enough contact patch on the ground, it can be quite low and quite safe. The Camaro, if they have compensated for the geometry may be incredibly great handling car. I have avoided more than my fair share of knuckleheads over the years because my well modified, quick, great handing car was able to avoid them, in a lessor car, might not of worked out so well. I would of called the Camaro lowered, not Stance, as that is a term I have used and done for decades, I would not group it into what I consider Stanced in the least.
Though not a great deal of sidewall height it looks adequate, from what I can see the camber is good, enough tire width to be properly supported by the rim, it is not slammed on the ground, it looks more like the things I do, looks great
Of course it is a convertible with out a roll bar and an old car with little structural support for side impacts, etc...something else to consider in overall safety. I would have much lighter wheels though like the 18x13 rear and 18x10.5 on the widebody Vette convertible I built, custom CCW monoblocks, TUV rated which is the highest rating you can get and fat sticky tires with just a little stretch front and rear for the best combination of support, grip, feedback and safety and very low weight for the size as weight effects ever aspect of performance, ride quality as well and I drove it like the grandpa I am nearly always as the performance was so high it was not safe to take it anywhere near it's potential on public roads, why I parted ways with it, ended up just taking up space and hardly drove it. When I did drive it the attention it received was huge but I did not buy or build it for that, I did it because I always wanted a Vette and finally could have one the way I thought I wanted it.
-----------------
To me anytime a vehicle, any type of vehicle, is purposely or unknowningly degraded in handling, brakes, or any other safety area is simply not a wise thing to do, we cannot control everything out there and the idiots texting while eating or putting on makeup or to many valiums, or......
Thread Starter
#40
...racing is for race tracks, not the street but this is about Stance and the issues of just going to far with it so back on topic, please
The main thing that bothers me in many car communities is that people will want to claim that they are 'enthusiasts' and then will immediately try and discount an entire section of the community because they don't feel it is 'correct'. I'm not saying that everyone has to like what they see, but I simply wish people would spend a little more time trying to understand what created the niche before bashing it.
There is no 'right' or 'wrong' car for pretty much any style or direction that someone wants to go. Some cars will clearly have an advantage in a section, but that shouldn't preclude someone that wants to be part of a community simply because they aren't of the exact same mindset.
I guess I've just found it easier to be accepting of something that I don't necessarily agree with than to get worked up because I don't like it personally.
Ok, that was off-topic a bit.
Yeah, that pretty much nails it on the head.
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