Roll bar / Cage

[Funkster]

For me personally, the weight savings alone would be enough reason. You are likely going to see a 25-35% increase in price, but a 28% reduction in weight. I also like to keep things local whenever possible to allow for easier access to have the builder repair or change anything as needed too, but that isn't a big factor here.

I agree with you on the pre-fab sufficing for those situations, but I would say that regardless of roll cage or roll bar if it is indeed a true street car it shouldn't have either due to increased risk of injury in a minor accident.

 

[TemecFist]

For me personally, the weight savings alone would be enough reason. You are likely going to see a 25-35% increase in price, but a 28% reduction in weight. I also like to keep things local whenever possible to allow for easier access to have the builder repair or change anything as needed too, but that isn't a big factor here.

I agree with you on the pre-fab sufficing for those situations, but I would say that regardless of roll cage or roll bar if it is indeed a true street car it shouldn't have either due to increased risk of injury in a minor accident.

28lbs of weight reduction (based off of a 100lb weight difference moly vs mild steel) for an extra $2k (30% price increase) is expensive. I could see that at a high level maybe.
Also, a street car can definitely benefit from a roll bar. I flipped a car off a 100'mountain ledge, and the only thing that kept the roof from caving in was a bolt in roll bar, they do work, and a necessity if you have a fixed back seat.

 

[Funkster]

28lbs of weight reduction (based off of a 100lb weight difference moly vs mild steel) for an extra $2k (30% price increase) is expensive. I could see that at a high level maybe.
Also, a street car can definitely benefit from a roll bar. I flipped a car off a 100'mountain ledge, and the only thing that kept the roof from caving in was a bolt in roll bar, they do work, and a necessity if you have a fixed back seat.

30% Increase in price is not $2,000 extra dollars in the numbers I discussed. If the Custom cage was $3,000 and the Autopower ended up being $2,400 installed (The lower end of the $600-1000 difference I quoted) that would be a 25% increase in price to go custom.

I agree a roll bar works as protection. I was more saying if a person truly street drives their car a lot a roll cage or bar increases the risk of serious head injury in a minor accident if not wearing a helmet. I have seen examples of this in person.

 

[M-Sport fan]

Caged cars typically have stripped interiors anyways and welding inside them is significantly easier. Welding in a car with an interior without damaging it is virtually impossible.

About the only race car scenario where most of the factory interior would have to ever go back into the car, after being stripped out in order to do a full welded-in cage to rule specs, is in the case of SCCA Touring class (formerly Showroom Stock) wheel to wheel road race, and the old Group N FIA rally car classes.

 

[TemecFist]

30% Increase in price is not $2,000 extra dollars in the numbers I discussed. If the Custom cage was $3,000 and the Autopower ended up being $2,400 installed (The lower end of the $600-1000 difference I quoted) that would be a 25% increase in price to go custom.

I agree a roll bar works as protection. I was more saying if a person truly street drives their car a lot a roll cage or bar increases the risk of serious head injury in a minor accident if not wearing a helmet. I have seen examples of this in person.

I would steer away from anyone offering a custom moly cage for a measly $3k. Imagine the corners that were cut for that.

 

[M-Sport fan]

I was more saying if a person truly street drives their car a lot a roll cage or bar increases the risk of serious head injury in a minor accident if not wearing a helmet. I have seen examples of this in person.

For the transit sections (non timed, road sections to get to the next special stage, which IS a timed test at high speed, on a performance rally), on public roads and observing all traffic laws, stage rally drivers are driving fully caged cars on the street, always without their helmets on. (They even have nets, or lined boxes installed to hold their helmets during these transits.)

But yes, this is only for approximately 150 or so miles, give or take, total during a typical performance rally weekend, maybe 10-12 times a year, whether at the highest FIA WRC level, or our ARA National level.

(Definitely NOT a daily driven scenario. )

 

[TemecFist]

About the only race car scenario where most of the factory interior would have to ever go back into the car, after being stripped out in order to do a full welded-in cage to rule specs, is in the case of SCCA Touring class (formerly Showroom Stock) wheel to wheel road race, and the old Group N FIA rally car classes.

But you still have added costs to a full cage even in a stripped race car (Windows being removed and re-installed is an example).

 

[TemecFist]

For the transit sections (non timed, road sections to get to the next special stage, which IS a timed test at high speed, on a performance rally), on public roads and observing all traffic laws, stage rally drivers are driving fully caged cars on the street, always without their helmets on.

But yes, this is only for approximately 150 or so miles, give or take, total during a typical performance rally weekend, maybe 10-12 times a year, whether at the highest FIA WRC level, or our ARA National level.

(Definitely NOT a daily driven scenario. )

And not at race speeds either. Daily driving with a full cage is a recipe for disaster

 

[TemecFist]

Heres an example:

E46 M3
4130 chromoly tubing. All junctions are TIG welded and tied to the chassis at structural points.

Price: starting at $6k

Like I said.....roll cage for $3k?........run!!!!

 

[M-Sport fan]

But you still have added costs to a full cage even in a stripped race car (Windows being removed and re-installed is an example).

Yes agreed!
I was only citing those as the solitary examples of when all of the factory crap would have to go back into the car after being removed for cage/prep in order to comply with the rules, unlike for most other classes of racing where once out of the car, it STAYS out (unless the build was started with a 'body in white' bare unibody structure, of course).

 

[Lays]

I would steer away from anyone offering a custom moly cage for a measly $3k. Imagine the corners that were cut for that.

The person I got that quote from has an NHRA 8.5 cert cage built by the place he recommended me to and got the quote from. He has a $100,000+ STI build that makes something close to 1100 whp. The place he recommended me does nothing except build race chassis and cages, so I trust the work.

The $3000 I was quoted was only for a 6 point, chromoly , and no extra fancy stuff.

 

[Woods247]

Heres an example:

E46 M3
View attachment 38635 4130 chromoly tubing. All junctions are TIG welded and tied to the chassis at structural points.

Price: starting at $6k

Like I said.....roll cage for $3k?........run!!!!



View attachment 38635

Yea lol. A custom 4 point DOM bar for my car would cost at least $3500, assuming I pull and reinstall the interior myself. It takes a long time to build these things from bar stock. Chromo stock is way more expensive and can be more costly to weld.

 

[Funkster]

Yea lol. A custom 4 point DOM bar for my car would cost at least $3500, assuming I pull and reinstall the interior myself. It takes a long time to build these things from bar stock. Chromo stock is way more expensive and can be more costly to weld.

Wow, in my area that price is outlandish. A 7.50 cert without swingouts in moly is $4,000 in my area. That is at today’s moly prices. More power to your guy if he can price like that.

 

[TemecFist]

This is what I'm saying. To have a good, cert'd cage/bar is expensive. Yeah, I could have a $1500 cage put into my car, but there is no way in hell I would trust it nor would someone be able to make the arguement about it being safer simply because its chromo or "custom". Lol

 

[M-Sport fan]

Wow, in my area that price is outlandish. A 7.50 cert without swingouts in moly is $4,000 in my area. That is at today’s moly prices. More power to your guy if he can price like that.

I know that you posted the above solely to give an idea on local/locale pricing, but, NHRA certifications can be wildly different from; SCCA/NASA/etc. certs as those can, and often do involve possible multiple car impacts, in much less controlled environments than a strip, albeit yes, usually at lower speeds.

In the case of ARA/FIA certifications, they also take into consideration the intrusion of trees, boulders, etc. into the cabin as well (something which will never happen on a drag strip), but of course do not have to worry about other competitor car impacts at all, unless the competitors are crashing into another already stationary rally car on the side of the road, or crashed/stuck in the same ditch/gully.

 

[Funkster]

This is what I'm saying. To have a good, cert'd cage/bar is expensive. Yeah, I could have a $1500 cage put into my car, but there is no way in hell I would trust it nor would someone be able to make the arguement about it being safer simply because its chromo or "custom". Lol

I am debating if people aren't realizing I am specifying a cage, not a roll bar. No one should ever trust a $1,500 CAGE of any sort.

$4,000 here will get you an incredibly nice cage made of moly. With certifications passed there really isn't a lot of ways for junk to sneak by. Welds are sonic tested at all joints and thickness is checked. If you are racing in any sanction (NHRA, FIA, SCCA, NASA) at a track that is serious about tech some hack job cage isn't going to fly.

Also I agree with the concept of moly not being safer in all instances. In fact most open wheel motorsports rule books state use of DOM over moly because it in fact handles multiple impacts better due to being more ductile and the fact that moly can often times be made brittle if not welded by an expert.

I know that you posted the above solely to give an idea on local/locale pricing, but, NHRA certifications can be wildly different from; SCCA/NASA/etc. certs as those can, and often do involve possible multiple car impacts, in much less controlled environments than a strip, albeit yes, usually at lower speeds.

In the case of ARA/FIA certifications, they also take into consideration the intrusion of trees, boulders, etc. into the cabin as well (something which will never happen on a drag strip), but of course do not have to worry about other competitor car impacts at all, unless the competitors are crashing into another already stationary rally car on the side of the road, or crashed/stuck in the same ditch/gully.

I agree, I wasn't trying to compare the cost to one of those cages though. I was comparing the cost on a properly build 10 point cage to the cost of a roll bar. $3,500 for a rollbar is way too high in my personal experience. A properly built and up to cert 7.50 or even 8.50 cage is going to have way more tubes, notching, plating and gusset work than a roll bar will.

 

[M-Sport fan]

Also I agree with the concept of moly not being safer in all instances. In fact most open wheel motorsports rule books state use of DOM over moly because it in fact handles multiple impacts better due to being more ductile and the fact that moly can often times be made brittle if not welded by an expert.

IF I am remembering correctly, about 25 or so years ago, chromoly tubing was actually verboten according to the SCCA's General Competition Rulebook (precisely for those multiple impact, 'brittleness' reasons you've stated above), and competitors HAD TO use DOM tubing for all cages (and I guess also for roll bars in Solo1/hillclimb/time trial cars as well?).

I guess that was changed somewhere between then and now?

 

[Funkster]

IF I am remembering correctly, about 25 or so years ago, chromoly tubing was actually verboten according to the SCCA's General Competition Rulebook (precisely for those multiple impact, 'brittleness' reasons you've stated above), and competitors HAD TO use DOM tubing for all cages (and I guess also for roll bars in Solo1/hillclimb/time trial cars as well?).

I guess that was changed somewhere between then and now?

I honestly don't think it was. I was just kind of making the original point that what I have paid for in the past was technically more expensive raw materials for less finished cost.

Just finished talking to my cage guy a few minutes ago and had him look at the Autopower parts. He said he would do a Moly version of their weld in roll bar for $1,200 and $900-1,000 in DOM. With the fact that the Autopower one is almost $600 delivered and doesn't come notched or welded together let alone to the car I just don't see a ton of savings in buying their weld in.

The bolt in obviously solves the labor issue and would save a guy $3-400.

 

[Woods247]

$4k for a full moly cage by someone who’s built 100s? Do it.

 

[Jabbit]

Nope. Just plan on painting it. I wouldn’t have them paint it because it’ll get chipped during shipping. It’s just shrink wrapped to a pallet. Brad is the guy who usually answers. He will help with every question and get you setup with exactly what you want.

Just placed my order, thanks for your assistance!