Keep breaking lugs - advice for hardened lugs??

[maestromaestro]

Another question to ask... When is the last time your torque wrenches were calibrated? Either your torque wrenches are out of spec or you're using the wrong nuts.

I've NEVER heard of anyone breaking studs.


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This is not a torque wrench issue. To answer your question, these are brand new (less than a year). The lug nuts are proper - the seat matches the wheel. And, metallurgically speaking, these are high-cycle failures, and have nothing to do with torquing. The nuts would have to be quite loose to arrive at this. And, just because you haven't heard of anybody breaking studs, doesn't mean that this can't happen - clearly, it is an issue here. I am fairly certain that this is an issue of mismatched (bad tolerances) centering rings. I have new coming in tomorrow - so, we'll see. [Notwithstanding the root cause, the quality of Ford studs leaves much to be desired.]

My question was, however, if anyone has suggestions on the stronger studs - still wondering.

 

[M-Sport fan]

You may have had the misfortune of getting part of a very bad 'batch' metallurgically, but then we would probably have heard some inkling of this somewhere on the nets from other owners who had the same misfortune, no?

Are you using alloy hubcentric rings, or plastic??

 

[maestromaestro]

You may have had the misfortune of getting part of a very bad 'batch' metallurgically, but then we would probably have heard some inkling of this somewhere on the nets from other owners who had the same misfortune, no?

Are you using alloy hubcentric rings, or plastic??

Well, it is a confluence of things. These are not 'bad' studs per se, but they do not hold up if "pushed". I have the misfortune of bad centering rings (that's my going theory anyway) superimposed on the marginal stud steel. And - yes, these are plastic, but I ordered metal ones as well. Frankly, the material of construction should not matter, if the size is proper - these are not load-bearing parts.

 

[Sekred]

http://www.fiestastforum.com/forum/threads/2150-ARP-Wheel-Studs?highlight=wheel+studs

 

[GAbOS]

One thing I would like to note regarding the lug shape diagram. It only shows lugs that would Center the wheel without a hub ring. Ask the steel wheel guys. You can have wheels that only use flat ringed lugs that only work being either hub-centric or using a spacer. Tapered(conical), Radius and Flat. The wheel and lugs HAVE TO MATCH.

 

[Quisp]

You may have had the misfortune of getting part of a very bad 'batch' metallurgically, but then we would probably have heard some inkling of this somewhere on the nets from other owners who had the same misfortune, no?

Are you using alloy hubcentric rings, or plastic??

Don't go being logical now. The 9 second ecoboost mustangs and GT500's must use a different metallurgical compound. Anything used beyond it's design parameters is going to break. It's either the lugs or rings.

 

[Hijinx]

This is not a torque wrench issue. To answer your question, these are brand new (less than a year). The lug nuts are proper - the seat matches the wheel. And, metallurgically speaking, these are high-cycle failures, and have nothing to do with torquing. The nuts would have to be quite loose to arrive at this. And, just because you haven't heard of anybody breaking studs, doesn't mean that this can't happen - clearly, it is an issue here. I am fairly certain that this is an issue of mismatched (bad tolerances) centering rings. I have new coming in tomorrow - so, we'll see. [Notwithstanding the root cause, the quality of Ford studs leaves much to be desired.]

My question was, however, if anyone has suggestions on the stronger studs - still wondering.

I don't have any knowledge in metallurgy, so I can't get in the ring with you there. But I can still refuse to accept your summation that our studs are poor quality. You're doing something wrong...until you can show/teach me otherwise.


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[maestromaestro]

I don't have any knowledge in metallurgy, so I can't get in the ring with you there. But I can still refuse to accept your summation that our studs are poor quality. You're doing something wrong...until you can show/teach me otherwise.


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I love the reasoning. You're wrong until you explain to me how you're right in terms I could understand... [emoji3] This reminds me of the OJ Simpson trial... [emoji3] [emoji3] [emoji3]

 

[maestromaestro]

I love the reasoning. You're wrong until you explain to me how you're right in terms I could understand... [emoji3] This reminds me of the OJ Simpson trial... [emoji3] [emoji3] [emoji3]

The wrong part is that the rings are likely mismatched with the wheel bore.

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[Hijinx]

I love the reasoning. You're wrong until you explain to me how you're right in terms I could understand... [emoji3] This reminds me of the OJ Simpson trial... [emoji3] [emoji3] [emoji3]

I don't just accept things because someone says them. But, I'm teachable when presented with information in a way that leads me to better understanding. From the face value of my personal experience, you're wrong about the studs. I'm not trying to be a dick about it, because my experience is limited. So far, you've not posted pictures or explained anything to back your claim. Explain Like I'm Five, you know?

In other words, I'm literally asking you to help me understand your claim because my experience says otherwise.



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[M-Sport fan]

These Moser studs at Summit are less than the ARPs, but I have not found their yield strengths anywhere to compare to the 180K-190K PSI ratings of the costlier ARPs and Morosos.


Moser Engineering 8254 - Moser Engineering Wheel Studs
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Wheel Studs, Press-In, 12mm x 1.5 x 1 1/2 in., Right Hand Thread, .505 in. Knurl, Set of 10

Estimated Ship Date: Monday 4/17/2017
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[WhiteST]

I love the reasoning. You're wrong until you explain to me how you're right in terms I could understand... [emoji3] This reminds me of the OJ Simpson trial... [emoji3] [emoji3] [emoji3]

I agree with him that you're doing something majorly wrong. Studs don't just break that often, they just don't, unless something is wrong with the setup. Even with the wrong hub rings. The hub rings are either going to fit tight or they aren't, its not rocket science. I've pounded my studs out three times, reinstalled them, ground half the heads off for clearance issues and still haven't broken 1. Do they break? yes. 7 times? Not unless your wheels are square. To have anything that far out of wack to cause a stud breaking vibration would mean it's something so obvious you'll be able to see it with your naked eye. Bent wheel, wrong lug nuts, over torquing to the point of stripping all the threads, a hub ring that probably wouldn't even fit correctly in your wheel. If you can move your wheel up, down, left, and right with the wheel on and no lugs then you have the wrong ring. Also, lose your attitude, people are trying to help.

 

[maestromaestro]

http://www.fiestastforum.com/forum/threads/2150-ARP-Wheel-Studs?highlight=wheel+studs

Thanks, man - this was actually useful!

 

[Sekred]

Looking at the torque specs of the OEM wheel stud indicate that they are a 10.9 bolt (grade 8) with a tensile strength rating of around 150,000 psi. The APR/Morosos studs tensile rating of 180,000 to 190,000 indicate they are 12.9 (Grade 9).

 

[maestromaestro]

These Moser studs at Summit are less than the ARPs, but I have not found their yield strengths anywhere to compare to the 180K-190K PSI ratings of the costlier ARPs and Morosos.


Moser Engineering 8254 - Moser Engineering Wheel Studs
Click to Enlarge Image
$17.25

1
Click here to add MSR-8254 to your shopping cart.
Click here to add MSR-8254 to your shopping wishlist. +Compare
Fast Shipping
Low Price Guarantee
Tech Advice
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(4)
Review This Product

Wheel Studs, Press-In, 12mm x 1.5 x 1 1/2 in., Right Hand Thread, .505 in. Knurl, Set of 10

Estimated Ship Date: Monday 4/17/2017
Would you rather pick it up? Select Location
Check Application

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Great - something I was actually looking for when I posted. Much appreciated, sir.

 

[maestromaestro]

I agree with him that you're doing something majorly wrong. Studs don't just break that often, they just don't, unless something is wrong with the setup. Even with the wrong hub rings. The hub rings are either going to fit tight or they aren't, its not rocket science. I've pounded my studs out three times, reinstalled them, ground half the heads off for clearance issues and still haven't broken 1. Do they break? yes. 7 times? Not unless your wheels are square. To have anything that far out of wack to cause a stud breaking vibration would mean it's something so obvious you'll be able to see it with your naked eye. Bent wheel, wrong lug nuts, over torquing to the point of stripping all the threads, a hub ring that probably wouldn't even fit correctly in your wheel. If you can move your wheel up, down, left, and right with the wheel on and no lugs then you have the wrong ring. Also, lose your attitude, people are trying to help.

When assessing probabilities of outcome, people tend to use heuristics to arrive at the answer (read an excellent paper by Kahneman and Tversky on the subject). One of these is drawing on something that the individual experienced and applying this to the situation in hand. This is to say that 'your mileage may vary' - and the fact that you personally abused studs and nothing came out of it does not mean that these are the outcomes for everyone.

You can educate yourself on the subject of metal fatigue - this is a phenomenon that is driven by the stress levels AND the number of cycles (e.g., higher number of cycles would fatigue the material even if the stress is "not that high"); ferric materials tend to have a fatigue limit - i.e, stress level that is low enough so that no matter how may cycles, the specimen/part won't break. So, your argument about "something obvious" does not really hold water; I drive this car almost 90 miles daily, so the number of cycles is getting up there pretty quickly.

And finally - as to your sentiment about "losing attitude"; I guess irony is something that you fail to see in your own statement. I am quite keen on help from the folks on the forum - that's why we are all here, especially the advice that I can use - such as, what kinds of studs are out there and where to get them. Mind you, I wasn't really looking for "there is something majorly wrong" type of inputs - as I explained, I believe I know what the issue is. If you regard your own post thru those lens, I believe you will find that you and 'your attitude' have missed the point. But you are probably a Steelers fan, so...

 

[maestromaestro]

I don't just accept things because someone says them. But, I'm teachable when presented with information in a way that leads me to better understanding. From the face value of my personal experience, you're wrong about the studs. I'm not trying to be a dick about it, because my experience is limited. So far, you've not posted pictures or explained anything to back your claim. Explain Like I'm Five, you know?

In other words, I'm literally asking you to help me understand your claim because my experience says otherwise.



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Sorry man - did not want to come off snarky. Fatigue is ultimately something that happens to a metallic material that is subject to cycling stress - mechanical, pressure or temperature fluctuations. There are tests to determine the "fatigue limit" - you take a specimen and subject it to a load such that the lowest load is about 10% of the highest (now, what that value is in relationship to the yield strength of material is something that is determined for the application). Then, you count the number of cycles that the specimen can survive. Some can survive "indefinitely" at some stress level (called 'fatigue limit') - so, you can design parts around that. But, if the stress is 'high enough', you will likely find that the material will break at some point (typically, around 1 million cycles or less). Fatigue failures have rather distinct look - when investigating, one looks at the "beach" or "river" marks - the gradually propagating crack leaves these "fronts" as it grows inward. At some point, the ultimate strength of material is exceeded and the part/specimen simply breaks. Now, having "stress risers" - such as threads or "pinch/bend" points (such as the edge of the lug nut) - exacerbates the situation, and the specimen/part would break at lower levels.

Thus a wheel that is not completely plumb on the hub would be subject to lots of cycles, and if the material is not strong enough, you will eventually break it. I am pretty sure that the designers at Ford obsessed about the fatigue limit of the bolt steel grade they were planning on using. So, they picked the cheapest (lower strength one) that could use for the anticipated level of stress, which would not exceed the fatigue limit. In my case, I wend beyond that with the stress level - hence the repeatedly breaking bolts. Now, these are "original" bolts, the newer ones I put in have not seen the critical number of cycles, but I am sure that it would be a matter of time if I continued with the set up.

Hope this helps - mechanical behavior 101.

PS - I did post pictures - see links in Page 1.

 

[Hijinx]

Sorry man - did not want to come off snarky. Fatigue is ultimately something that happens to a metallic material that is subject to cycling stress - mechanical, pressure or temperature fluctuations. There are tests to determine the "fatigue limit" - you take a specimen and subject it to a load such that the lowest load is about 10% of the highest (now, what that value is in relationship to the yield strength of material is something that is determined for the application). Then, you count the number of cycles that the specimen can survive. Some can survive "indefinitely" at some stress level (called 'fatigue limit') - so, you can design parts around that. But, if the stress is 'high enough', you will likely find that the material will break at some point (typically, around 1 million cycles or less). Fatigue failures have rather distinct look - when investigating, one looks at the "beach" or "river" marks - the gradually propagating crack leaves these "fronts" as it grows inward. At some point, the ultimate strength of material is exceeded and the part/specimen simply breaks. Now, having "stress risers" - such as threads or "pinch/bend" points (such as the edge of the lug nut) - exacerbates the situation, and the specimen/part would break at lower levels.

Thus a wheel that is not completely plumb on the hub would be subject to lots of cycles, and if the material is not strong enough, you will eventually break it. I am pretty sure that the designers at Ford obsessed about the fatigue limit of the bolt steel grade they were planning on using. So, they picked the cheapest (lower strength one) that could use for the anticipated level of stress, which would not exceed the fatigue limit. In my case, I wend beyond that with the stress level - hence the repeatedly breaking bolts. Now, these are "original" bolts, the newer ones I put in have not seen the critical number of cycles, but I am sure that it would be a matter of time if I continued with the set up.

Hope this helps - mechanical behavior 101.

PS - I did post pictures - see links in Page 1.

So, basically...because your hub rings might not be perfect, the wheel is sort of stretching the studs over and over through revolutions. Am I correct in understanding that? If so, I can see how you're losing them so quickly.


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[maestromaestro]

So, basically...because your hub rings might not be perfect, the wheel is sort of stretching the studs over and over through revolutions. Am I correct in understanding that? If so, I can see how you're losing them so quickly.


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In a nut shell, yes - it is a bending momentum, but yeah. And, it is an "elastic" stretch - that is, there is no plastic deformation to the stud, as the upper stress value is below the "yield point" of the bolt steel. You can see the crack/fracture face in the first picture on page 1.

 

[neeqness]

Deleted post.