+300whp Big Turbo FiSTs - Driveability, Engine Limits, and Reliability

[antarctica24]

Meh. I've had 350+hp FWD cars, and while it's fun, the amount of work it takes to get usable traction at lower speeds isn't something I'd want to do, IMO.

That being said, I think the Fiesta ST is great in stock form, and a tune + a few other things would help a bunch for the twisties. I never find myself accelerating hard in this car, but as soon as I see some curves, I dive into them and tear up the road.

Tons of fun. I may, one day, explore going with DHM's 290 kit, but for now I'll probably just do a catback/intake/tune/RMM & call it a day for a while. Car is too great as it is without throwing 100+ fwhp at it IMO lol

This is all my opinion, and we have different goals, etc which is why I'm glad this platform has a decent aftermarket.

Well I can offer some news to your liking, I did install the map fmic charge pipes recirculating bov, and map exhaust. The downpipe was not installed because Ford stripped the top bolt that was in downpipe. It is going to require me to pull the turbo out which I will accomplish next weekend.

With that said I did not upgrade the intake nor did I retune anything. I'm still on the stock tune. The car has a lot more power from freeing up the airflow. No I have not dynoed anything yet it I am going to continue to drive the car as is next week as is.

There is a drone noise at about 5k which I hope to resolve with a 1/4 wave resonator pipe. I just have to figure out the length. As for daily drivability I can comment more on that last week. I am now at 157,000 miles.

I really think something less than 300/300 is really the upper reasonable limit of a daily driver. I'm not trying to fight with anyone here that is just my opinion. The exhaust note is very nice. I ran the recirculating bov back through the factory sound silencer. I do still here a little whistle at 6k but it is very subtle. The car is also a lot smoother. I also did not install the Cobb motor mount.

 

[RAAMaudio]

I agree 300/300 is plenty for a daily driver, about what I am running now but going to a smaller turbo and WMI so will end up with a bit more but far more linear powerband, I only want a bit more to have the power to weight ratio of a few cars I will see on road race tracks.

With LSD, 225 Rival S tires, huge jump in torque when it spools, good road, over 60 degrees, does not spin in second gear but really have to hang on and keep it straight, big torque steer!

 

[antarctica24]

Rick, Hijinx, Sourskittle, Russ, or anyone else that would please chime in here.

I want your expertise opinion on two things, understanding I have lots of supercharger experience. I have ZERO TURBO experience. That is why I am going about this a little at a time. Now that I have my bolt ons on the car, and really feeling how bad the factory plumbing was, I am ready to upgrade the turbo, and I really want to understand the dynamics of the changes I am making to the car, and as I continue to harass Hijinx about daily drivability, I promise it is all in good fun. I love you man.

The ATP 2554R verses the 2560R, vs Cyborg, What is the real difference? When they spin up, what is the usable RPM range, will they work with the Log manifold? Is it the RPM level that full boost comes on? Is it the total power the car can create. What are you thoughts here. I think Rick and Hijinx have had both or at least a variety of turbos and I know Rick has had all 3 im pretty sure.

2nd, On the Trans Am, I had staged long tube headers. Lots of low end torque. LOTS. I think I picked up 75ft lbs below 2000rpm when I made this change. You know, 2in to 2.75 in to 3.5 inch into a 4 in 1 collector made by kooks. George is awesome.

While I understand the physical difference between the log and tubular manifold, there is some confusion as it pertains to how the turbo behaves with each. If I even said that right.

All I hear is the tubular makes the turbo spin up quicker, but not necessarily faster. By that comment I mean, faster in the RPM range 1500-2500, quicker means when ever it comes on from start to spin to full boost.

So if using the 2560R, lets say it comes on at 3500, but not full boost until 4500 with a log, does that mean the tubular makes it spin up to full boost at say 3700? Is that the right line of thinking. Im pretty sure I understand the EFR thing at this point.

So if I was buying either of the ATP turbos or Cyborg, does the Tubular manifold really buy me anything useful given everything I have said about useable power on the street driving 300 mixed miles every day? Is there something to be said for going big running small? Let's say buying a 2560R $100 more, and keeping the power below 300hp. If I get the cyborg, how hard am I pushing the turbo to get to 300? And what are the real RPM ranges of these turbos?

My thoughts here are the problem in this car with so much low end torque as Hijinx has commented on, you really cannot power, pedal to the floor through the gears without blowing off the tires. My line of thinking here is the torque management is a good thing, not a hindrance and having a majority of the boost come on later giving me time to get the thing moving is better not only on the street but the race track as well.

The whole thing about hooking up at the drag strip on a rear wheel drive car is lighten the front, that way when the car takes off, weight is transferred to the rear, increasing tracking and launching the car. If the tires are spinning your wasting clock. It looks awesome at a show and at the stop light, but even on a road course traction is everything. If I am coming into a chicane from 80mph and I have to brake and downshift to go through the turn and then accelerate on the other side, if I am blowing off the tires, I just fubared. I would think keeping the power low in the lower rpm ranges with enough torque to get it moving but not so much that I blow off the tires, is preferable.

Thanks guys for any input you can share.

 

[HAHAFiST]

Answer to your question



Let me give you some perspective from a different point of view. The physical limitation of this motor is 424tq.

With that said, drive ability with 300/300 daily is no different than 200/200 or in my case on a previous car of 822/693 which I drove daily it is all in the driver and the pedal. You have read that I drive about 6000 miles per month but I don't drive pedal to the floor all day and through every shift even when I am powering through the gears. I do have moments but his would be the case for everyone who drives including yourself. You adjust for conditions and scenarios. I would be willing to bet that even Rick when racing does not pedal to the floor every shit because he is constantly making adjustments based on where he is in on the track he is racing. Everything Rick said is correct as you have stated you already know but to apply your question to daily driving really requires both our answers and you probably know that as well.

There is the saying that lights that burn twice as bright burn half as long and that absolutely applies here. The ecoboost motor is not indestructible even with the best tune but oddly enough what Rick said applies to car stereo speakers as well. It's all in the tune as to how long it will last. You can always apply more power to a speaker than its rated power provided the audio is not distorted and this engine is no different. Driving this car daily your not going to hammer on it all the time but when you do how it will respond is completly be dependent on the accuracy of your tune. Rick nor Russ nor 2j have to worry as much about tuning when racing as when daily driving because the conditions. When racing your conditions are known. The weather, the temps, conditions all known. Daily driving not so much so the tune as you know has to be more conservative. Rick apparently is independently wealthy the guy has had according to his post at least 3 different turbos on his car. You and I maybe not so much so posts like this thread are so important because so much of this is unknown. What we do know is the upper limit of this motor it is 424fttq I got that the other day from Russ at DHM. That does not mean you can drive daily with 423fttq and the motor will last and you probably know that. That means the motor gave up the ghost at 424.

With all of that nonsense said there are so many other things to consider for daily diving and I am an expert in this area regarding high horse power cars. I personally tuned the 822hp car and the fiesta is no different in this regard. You reach a point where you are getting beyond the daily drivability of the what the car and chassis were designed for. On a race track where these guys are spending their time everything is known where as daily driving everything is unknown. These guys are pushing the limits and they are getting lucky. When you start having to mess with the fuel system, suspension, axels, transmission, you are messing with the things that make the car a daily driver. Knowing everything I know with over 20 years experience in building high performance street cars, I'm telling you that 300hp/300ft Tq is the real world number upper limit of this car being able to be driven reliably on the street everyday without having too many major problems. Just because some of these guys are pushing 350-400 at the track and then driving it home does not make it a daily driver. Daily driver means you drive it 30-70 miles per day and you change the oil every 3-5000 miles and every 30,000 to 40,000 you change the brakes and every 50,000 you change the tires. Anything else your having to do to makntain the car and it is not a daily driver. Why? Because those are the things you do when daily driving your car. Having to constantly change your tune removes you from the daily driver group becuase that is not something you would normally do daily nor would adjusting the suspension, fuel system, bov or anything else for that matter. If your having to add something to the car to drive it everyday it is not a daily driver like alcohol or meth just to keep it from blowing up it is not a daily driver. Adding gas is not the same so all you nay Sayers don't even go there and you know it.

Based on my experience and research the real upper limit for daily driver reliability on this car to be the exact same as it comes from the factory is 270hp and 270tq. Rick is a stupid knowledgable guy and he is doing all of the stuff I was doing before I moved to ford and he is pushing the limits of what the car can do and he does so with great thought behind it. But make no mistake this car, the motor, tranny, suspension, chassis, fuel system were not designed to deal with 375ft tq everyday and at those power numbers you are pushing your luck.

This car is dumb fun at 180/200. And extra 100hp and 80ft tq is more than enough to enjoy. More than enough.

Just skimming through the thread (although, i read your entire post unlike someone else, haha) and I think you nailed it. People are always chasing power and then don't realize till later, they can't use it when it comes to daily driver applications or did, other than that one time they found a mustang gt on the freeway and tried to do a 40mph rolling pull. Out of a dig, depending on the turbo and the tune, these cars are terrible with putting grip to the ground unless you make some serious changes.

My car is my daily so I plan to sit around the 280/300hp mark... assuming I do auto-x a couple of times a year. in tight course and canyon environments its FEELS like its putting out plenty of usable power with the torque curve it has. I would prefer to have a turbo set up though that the power band is shifted up a bit in the rpm so I'm not breaking traction at the dumbest points. lol

 

[antarctica24]

Just skimming through the thread (although, i read your entire post unlike someone else, haha) and I think you nailed it. People are always chasing power and then don't realize till later, they can't use it when it comes to daily driver applications or did, other than that one time they found a mustang gt on the freeway and tried to do a 40mph rolling pull. Out of a dig, depending on the turbo and the tune, these cars are terrible with putting grip to the ground unless you make some serious changes.

My car is my daily so I plan to sit around the 280/300hp mark... assuming I do auto-x a couple of times a year. in tight course and canyon environments its FEELS like its putting out plenty of usable power with the torque curve it has. I would prefer to have a turbo set up though that the power band is shifted up a bit in the rpm so I'm not breaking traction at the dumbest points. lol

I agree thank you so very much for your response.

 

[jeff]

I agree thank you so very much for your response.

yo Brian! Still got your Fiesta? If so you must be past 200,000 miles....

 

[antarctica24]

218,000, Glad to see your still around. I made the move to ST Louis and I'm still at AAA. The Stereo system is finally making progress, and I have ordered some DNA stuff, the KW Variant 3 suspension, the vega motorworks bolt ons, and currently contemplating fuel or turbo upgrade.