ANNOUNCEMENT: The new MFactory VTB LSD

[MFactory]

Will this have similar longevity/ruggidness of your current LSD? I've gone through 2 so far and am a bit gunshy at this point.

You've went through 2 so far? This is the first I've heard. Who did you purchase from and did you submit any warranty request?

 

[Dpro]

Both of the brands you mentioned use Belleville Spring Washers and function identically, other than one of them having an extra couple of parts added (the zero load system)

I think you simplify their system in order to makes yours look superior in your comments. It is distinctly different than the Quaife. I am not trying to diss your product either . I welcome new systems that might work using a different principle.
Though if you want to prove yours does work better then you should get someone to test all three back to back.

 

[MFactory]

I think you simplify their system in order to makes yours look superior in your comments. It is distinctly different than the Quaife. I am not trying to diss your product either . I welcome new systems that might work using a different principle.
Though if you want to prove yours does work better then you should get someone to test all three back to back.

The only part that is different between them is the addition of their zero-load system (which, as mentioned in my original post, is incomplete). I'm not simplifying their system; I'm telling you exactly how it is based on how these differentials are built. Open them up, learn how they work and you will know they are indeed very simple (there are a multitude of Youtube videos showing these things taken apart). Helical LSD's are intentionally simple by design.

On paper (and initial testing), ours is superior as it was designed to be a complete system that works on both axles without any wear components. I work on and design differentials for a living. They are not rocket science until you move into mechatronic territory

I was not talking about Quaife in my post, as those function almost identically to our existing LSD. I have no beef with Quaife and have regular business meetings with them when I'm in the UK.

If you remove that zero-load system (or when it wears down), there is zero difference in functionality between both of those brands i.e the only differentiating factor is the addition of their zero-load system. Friction plates? Quaife have those available also, nothing new.

 

[Dpro]

The only part that is different between them is the addition of their zero-load system (which, as mentioned in my original post, is incomplete). I'm not simplifying their system; I'm telling you exactly how it is based on how these differentials are built. Open them up, learn how they work and you will know they are indeed very simple (there are a multitude of Youtube videos showing these things taken apart). Helical LSD's are intentionally simple by design.

On paper (and initial testing), ours is superior as it was designed to be a complete system that works on both axles without any wear components. I work on and design differentials for a living. They are not rocket science until you move into mechatronic territory

I was not talking about Quaife in my post, as those function almost identically to our existing LSD. I have no beef with Quaife and have regular business meetings with them when I'm in the UK.

If you remove that zero-load system (or when it wears down), there is zero difference in functionality between both of those brands i.e the only differentiating factor is the addition of their zero-load system. Friction plates? Quaife have those available also, nothing new.

Then you fail at marketing because you allowed yourself to post what you posted above you openly admitted you have beef with a competitor and therefore are marketing out of malice not a good position. I do not buy your explanation either because no one has complained of wear of what you speak of with your competitor. I pointed a simple way for you to prove your claim. As a consumer it is my place to question claims like yours and ask for proof of it. If you believe in your product you should rise to the occasion and prove rather than trying to diss the competition. Oh and yes you allowed yourself to be dragged into this by coming back with retorts. So no I am not dissing your product merely not agreeing with your assent of your competitor and calling you out to prove your claim. I have nothing more to say except show us don’t tell us.

 

[MFactory]

Then you fail at marketing because you allowed yourself to post what you posted above you openly admitted you have beef with a competitor and therefore are marketing out of malice not a good position. I do not buy your explanation either because no one has complained of wear of what you speak of with your competitor. I pointed a simple way for you to prove your claim. As a consumer it is my place to question claims like yours and ask for proof of it. If you believe in your product you should rise to the occasion and prove rather than trying to diss the competition. Oh and yes you allowed yourself to be dragged into this by coming back with retorts. So no I am not dissing your product merely not agreeing with your assent of your competitor and calling you out to prove your claim. I have nothing more to say except show us don’t tell us.

I never said I had any beef with anyone. Infact, I haven't even mentioned any names other than Quaife in my last reply to you

With regards to wear, plenty of people have complained of loss of functionality and this was due to wear. This is an undeniable fact that even the manufacturer you are referring to admits to. It's not a hidden secret, it is fact

I do not wish to get into an argument with you as this was not the point of this thread (it is simply an announcement with NO brand names mentioned whatsoever), however, just because you are unaware of issues does not mean they do not exist

We are North America's largest Honda transmission builder. We know almost every differential available inside out, good or bad, faults or advantages. You are trying to counter with the wrong person. I'm not simply just another regular salesman doing marketing BS

With regards to proving our claims, that is the whole point of testing, of which are currently undergoing. And the whole point of testing is to ensure our product achieves the aims set out of which so far (from the past two iterations) we've managed to do. The current variant is testing our preload settings, not the zero load functionality (we actually achieved that on the 1st iteration)

Again, this is not rocket science as I design and build differentials for a living.

But anyway, I've been doing this long enough to know that further replies are futile, so I'll just propose to agree to disagree. No dissing or bad feelings towards you. Whether you are a potential customer or not, I still appreciate and am grateful for your constructive criticism

 

[Woods247]

Guys they’re still testing. Stop the argumentative posts please and wait for data if you’re skeptical. The new design makes since to me.. It’s very clever. I have a buddy with a Civic that uses a MFactory clutch diff and it’s been flawless for 6 years. He’s just now rebuilding it. My helical diff was fantastic until I got faster and more aggressive. These guys don’t build garbage. No one has to build anything for these cars since the market is extremely small. I’ve actually called a few times asking for a clutch diff for our platform and was told it wasn’t in the pipeline. We’re lucky to be on their radar. Even Ford stopped making parts for us already. 😂

 

[ronmcdon]

the aftermarket is actually not bad at all for the fiesta. you already have the kaaz clutch type lsd. only the dirtbags at ford discontinue stuff left and right, but suprisingly thats not the case for the aftermarket.

 

[Fusion Works]

How much preload can your system generate at static? 50lbs? 75lbs?

ON my Mfactory clutch type diffs I can generate about 80lbs.

 

[MFactory]

How much preload can your system generate at static? 50lbs? 75lbs?

ON my Mfactory clutch type diffs I can generate about 80lbs.

With Helical LSD's, although are pre-loaded, do not function the same way that pre-load does in a Plate type LSD, so there isn't the same sort of pre-load "force" generated.

In a Plate LSD, the pre-load is how much torque is generated to the axles from a standstill. Once torque goes about this amount, the pre-load is irrelevant

On a Helical LSD, the pre-load is only used to keep the side-gears pre-loaded to "simulate" a torque load on the axles (along with generating friction. A Helical LSD works on friction). Even without any pre-load, a Helical LSD will still function at standstill/low-torque unlike a Plate LSD (provided there is sufficient traction of course)

 

[Dialcaliper]

With Helical LSD's, although are pre-loaded, do not function the same way that pre-load does in a Plate type LSD, so there isn't the same sort of pre-load "force" generated.

In a Plate LSD, the pre-load is how much torque is generated to the axles from a standstill. Once torque goes about this amount, the pre-load is irrelevant

On a Helical LSD, the pre-load is only used to keep the side-gears pre-loaded to "simulate" a torque load on the axles (along with generating friction. A Helical LSD works on friction). Even without any pre-load, a Helical LSD will still function at standstill/low-torque unlike a Plate LSD (provided there is sufficient traction of course)

I defer to your experience, but that doesn’t sound quite right.

For a clutch type, your description is correct. With zero traction, the clutch is limited by the preload. Once one wheel has traction, the pressure angle then determines how much torque the clutch pack can transfer to either wheel, which is some function of the total torque/traction from both wheels (modified by the pressure angle)

As I understand from the helical, the helix angles create a bias/gear ratio which can deliver a multiple of the traction at the low traction wheel.

I think the specific question he’s trying to ask is, based on the coil spring choices, what range of simulated torque can the zero load system on your diff apply to the unloaded wheel. That torque would then by multiplied by the bias ratio to determine how much torque can be put to the wheel with traction.

However, I see where this is an apples to oranges comparison. To answer that question, you’d also need to know the other characteristics of both LSDs. Specifically:
- clutch pack preload, disc diameter, area and coefficient of friction of the clutch type. Also the pressure angle and some other parameters.
- Coil spring preload, mechanism diameter and area, plus the bias ratio of the differential

So you’d be correct in saying “I can’t give you a useful comparison to the question because it depends on other characteristics of both specific differential models in question”

I imagine you could probably answer how much simulated torque can the Ford Fiesta VTB apply to an unloaded wheel, and what is the bias ratio. If you were willing to and MFactory is willing to publicize those figures.

But that still can’t be compared directly without knowing all the workings of the Clutch-type as well, and even then the two diffs will act very differently

 

[MFactory]

The springs are only one small part of how the LSD generates friction (in a way, you can think of them as "response" modifiers). The torque bias ratio is a function of friction, and with a Helical LSD, it varies depending on the axle speed difference as the gears also physically move side-to-side (not just rotate).

With a Plate LSD, you can use a pre-load tool on an LSD (on a bench) and a torque wrench to check the pre-load/breakaway torque. With a Helical LSD, this is meaningless.

We are testing various spring rates at the moment, but have not yet decided which springs to use yet for the final product.

 

[Dialcaliper]

The springs are only one small part of how the LSD generates friction (in a way, you can think of them as "response" modifiers). The torque bias ratio is a function of friction, and with a Helical LSD, it varies depending on the axle speed difference as the gears also physically move side-to-side (not just rotate).

With a Plate LSD, you can use a pre-load tool on an LSD (on a bench) and a torque wrench to check the pre-load/breakaway torque. With a Helical LSD, this is meaningless.

We are testing various spring rates at the moment, but have not yet decided which springs to use yet for the final product.

That makes sense. Is there a way to meaningfully quantify the torque the diff can apply with one wheel at no-load? As you mention I imagine that it also changes depending on the relative wheel speed.

For reference and speed unrelated to the no-load function, based on the “75% torque to one wheel” marketing that MFactory uses, is it safe to guess that most of your helical diffs (interested in the Fiesta specifically) use somewhere around a 3:1 TBR? Aka 75/25 split.

 

[MFactory]

That makes sense. Is there a way to meaningfully quantify the torque the diff can apply with one wheel at no-load? As you mention I imagine that it also changes depending on the relative wheel speed.

For reference and speed unrelated to the no-load function, based on the “75% torque to one wheel” marketing that MFactory uses, is it safe to guess that most of your helical diffs (interested in the Fiesta specifically) use somewhere around a 3:1 TBR? Aka 75/25 split.

Our regular is 2.1:1 and Stage 1 is 2.5:1. With the VTB (or v3, as we call it internally), base (without the VTB system and friction discs) is around 2.8:1. Due to the small size of the gears, and in the interest of longevity (you'll never hit 600lb-ft+ in a Fiesta, but we do on other applications), this is almost at the upper limit in terms of helix angle of the gears, hence why we also ceramic coat certain sections of the internal components (we "over-engineer" all of the components). TBR's are based on helix-angle only though, as there is also the rest of the system that generates friction, thus subsequently increasing the amount of torque bias by a not-so-insignificant amount. For this reason, we don't normally mention the "ratio", instead mentioning an "upto %" as, although it can somewhat be calculated, is almost impossible to measure consistently. % also just happens to be more easily understood by the consumer.

In absolute terms (lb-ft), no, as it varies depending on how much torque is being transferred to the differential from the output shaft (the "pinion" or "countershaft" of the final drive), which is ultimately dependent on your right foot. In terms of %, the outside wheel will receive anywhere from 50-85% depending on how much the inside wheel is slipping (which will receive anywhere from 15-50%). In other words, the more you put your foot down, the more it's going to pull you into the corner up to the traction threshold of your tyres (which is then also dependent on your chassis setup). This can take some getting used to for beginner drivers as their initial instinct is to lift off the pedal rather than plant it even more. With the pre-load springs and higher TBR, this makes the "feel" or "pull effect" even more pronounced and takes a bit of time to adjust to (e.g as those who upgraded from our regular to the Stage 1 had found out). A lot of drivers had to make changes to their chassis setup in order to benefit from the increased torque. Chassis setup should always be done last, after you've setup the rest of your car.

 

[Fusion Works]

Thanks for expanding on that (both of you). Yeah on my Honda diffs, I built a tool to test preload on the bench and play with shims and spring combinations to create the preload I am looking for.

I wasn't sure if your new diff would be similar from a spring force stand point. I will be interested to test your new diff in my track car. It might be the "best" alternative to a full on plate diff for a combination street/track car. My plate diffs sound AWFUL at low speeds and such in my race cars, but are also magic on track.

 

[MFactory]

Thanks for expanding on that (both of you). Yeah on my Honda diffs, I built a tool to test preload on the bench and play with shims and spring combinations to create the preload I am looking for.

I wasn't sure if your new diff would be similar from a spring force stand point. I will be interested to test your new diff in my track car. It might be the "best" alternative to a full on plate diff for a combination street/track car. My plate diffs sound AWFUL at low speeds and such in my race cars, but are also magic on track.

What oil are you using in your transmissions? For Honda, we normally recommend Torco RTF for track-only cars and some Type-F friction modifier to fine tune (which also has the added benefit of reducing the chattering noise). We can also WPC treat the plates which helps reduce the noise and any juddering

 

[Fusion Works]

Driven Racing Oil STF transmission fluid. The chatter doesn't really bother me, but it was quite the surprise when I first installed it and drove it around the parking lot.It also surprises some of my customers, even after I warn the, Thanks for the tip I can use that to help dial down some of the noise if they request it.

 

[kivnul]

You've went through 2 so far? This is the first I've heard. Who did you purchase from and did you submit any warranty request?

I'll take this to DM's.

 

[Dialcaliper]

Our regular is 2.1:1 and Stage 1 is 2.5:1. With the VTB (or v3, as we call it internally), base (without the VTB system and friction discs) is around 2.8:1. Due to the small size of the gears, and in the interest of longevity (you'll never hit 600lb-ft+ in a Fiesta, but we do on other applications), this is almost at the upper limit in terms of helix angle of the gears, hence why we also ceramic coat certain sections of the internal components (we "over-engineer" all of the components). TBR's are based on helix-angle only though, as there is also the rest of the system that generates friction, thus subsequently increasing the amount of torque bias by a not-so-insignificant amount. For this reason, we don't normally mention the "ratio", instead mentioning an "upto %" as, although it can somewhat be calculated, is almost impossible to measure consistently. % also just happens to be more easily understood by the consumer.

In absolute terms (lb-ft), no, as it varies depending on how much torque is being transferred to the differential from the output shaft (the "pinion" or "countershaft" of the final drive), which is ultimately dependent on your right foot. In terms of %, the outside wheel will receive anywhere from 50-85% depending on how much the inside wheel is slipping (which will receive anywhere from 15-50%). In other words, the more you put your foot down, the more it's going to pull you into the corner up to the traction threshold of your tyres (which is then also dependent on your chassis setup). This can take some getting used to for beginner drivers as their initial instinct is to lift off the pedal rather than plant it even more. With the pre-load springs and higher TBR, this makes the "feel" or "pull effect" even more pronounced and takes a bit of time to adjust to (e.g as those who upgraded from our regular to the Stage 1 had found out). A lot of drivers had to make changes to their chassis setup in order to benefit from the increased torque. Chassis setup should always be done last, after you've setup the rest of your car.

@MFactory wondering if you have any updates on your VTB product. I noticed dishearteningly that your website now contains a statement that you’ve run into a patent dispute with “that other company” which I’ll refrain from naming.

Is there still a path to bringing this product to market for the IB6/ST180 in at least some countries? I noticed UK is not included in the countries under dispute…

 

[MFactory]

The only areas with the dual-pulse cams deactivated (it will still use our coil spring pre-load system though, which is where most of the improvement is) is in the US/AU/JP.

Updated info here:

https://www.facebook.com/teammfactory/posts/900022425476301

View: https://www.facebook.com/teammfactory/posts/900022425476301?ref=embed_post

 

[Dialcaliper]

The only areas with the dual-pulse cams deactivated (it will still use our coil spring pre-load system though, which is where most of the improvement is) is in the US/AU/JP.

Updated info here:

https://www.facebook.com/teammfactory/posts/900022425476301

View: https://www.facebook.com/teammfactory/posts/900022425476301?ref=embed_post

Thanks, the other half of my question that I’m not seeing the answer to - is the new VTB Diff for the Fiesta ST application actually for sale yet, or if not, when would you expect it to be, in the UK through various dealers or elsewhere for example?