S290!!!

[jeffreylyon]

I sent an email to Turbo Technics asking about the S290. This is what I got back:

"This Turbo is currently in the development stage. We are hoping to release this at the end of 2022. Please keep an eye out on our Social Media Channels for updates."

... could be interesting!

 

[daloonie]

Yes, interesting
https://philkershaw.com/s290-development-testing/

Test 4 highlighted that the performance from Spec ‘B’ was achieving very similar results to that of Spec ‘A’, however with lower temperatures it appeared that we could possibly extract a little more power, despite already having surpassed our target of 400bhp. Some fine tuning of the mapping gave us our highest figure of 437bhp (and still running safe), but frustratingly we didn’t have time to apply these changes to the rest of the map. However, we did note that the torque figure from this result (327lbft) is only slightly reduced from the peak figure of around 330lbft, so we think it may be possible to hold a virtually flat torque curve from 4000rpm through to 7000rpm. N.B. although this curve shows strong results below 4000rpm, we suspect that these will not be replicated on the road, as the vehicle will have accelerated through this point by the time the turbo spools.

 

[jeffreylyon]

This might be the way to find GTX2860 power without having to go catless. It looks like the S290 gives up 500 revs. in spool but holds boost another 1500 revs. Decisions, decisions...

 

[Jabbit]

This has been in "development" for years now, nothing new. End of 2022? Don't hold your breath.

 

[ron@whoosh]

yeeeeeah ....
The S290 has existed for years
not available for sale but may be at some point
spool is a lot later than the S280 and fuel mods will be required (aux of XDI pump/injectors)

 

[gtx3076]

This might be the way to find GTX2860 power without having to go catless. It looks like the S290 gives up 500 revs. in spool but holds boost another 1500 revs. Decisions, decisions...

Why would you have to go catless on the 2860?

 

[dhminer]

Why would you have to go catless on the 2860?

Right. I’ve run mine catted and catless.

 

[jeffreylyon]

Why would you have to go catless on the 2860?

Maybe equal shares of my bias and my misunderstanding...

My bias: with the S280 around I don't think that a 2860 on a stock manifold with a v-band adaptor makes sense; I've been told that the 2860 really needs a tubular manifold to outshine the S280.

My understanding (?): a tubular manifold relocates the turbo such that a custom downpipe is needed. All of the head-to-exhaust 2860 kits that I can find come with a catless downpipe.

 

[78kingcobra]

2860 will outshine a s280 peak power wise at similar boost pressures even with a stock manifold and a adapter. Though it does spool slower due to the .64 ar turbine housing. You can get a stock placement manifold (ebay or airtec) a modified stock manifold (will at wor fab can do this) with a v band and eliminate the adapter. The stock downpipe will bolt directly up with either of those options with the atp kit or a pulsar with atp adapters. Where the 2860 outshines the s280 is with a manifold like a wor fab setup with a tial .52 ar housing. That will let it spool faster but your still hurting top end and choking it up. Shoving more boost into it eventually gets to a point of diminishing returns as emap shoots up with the smaller housings .52ar or the s280 housing witch can cause headgasket failure if exhaust reversion and high emap become a issue when pushing to the limits.

Maybe equal shares of my bias and my misunderstanding...

My bias: with the S280 around I don't think that a 2860 on a stock manifold with a v-band adaptor makes sense; I've been told that the 2860 really needs a tubular manifold to outshine the S280.

My understanding (?): a tubular manifold relocates the turbo such that a custom downpipe is needed. All of the head-to-exhaust 2860 kits that I can find come with a catless downpipe.

 

[dhminer]

2860 will outshine a s280 peak power wise at similar boost pressures even with a stock manifold and a adapter. Though it does spool slower due to the .64 ar turbine housing. You can get a stock placement manifold (ebay or airtec) a modified stock manifold (will at wor fab can do this) with a v band and eliminate the adapter. The stock downpipe will bolt directly up with either of those options with the atp kit or a pulsar with atp adapters. Where the 2860 outshines the s280 is with a manifold like a wor fab setup with a tial .52 ar housing. That will let it spool faster but your still hurting top end and choking it up. Shoving more boost into it eventually gets to a point of diminishing returns as emap shoots up with the smaller housings .52ar or the s280 housing witch can cause headgasket failure if exhaust reversion and high emap become a issue when pushing to the limits.

Great detail here, thanks for this. I ran the 2860 with Airtec + vband adapter and now run it with the WOR modified stock manifold. Gained a few hundred rpm but still no power below 4500rpm. Luckily I’ll be solving this soon with a turbo that makes boost almost as early as the s280 and holds power up top better than the 2860

 

[gtx3076]

Great detail here, thanks for this. I ran the 2860 with Airtec + vband adapter and now run it with the WOR modified stock manifold. Gained a few hundred rpm but still no power below 4500rpm. Luckily I’ll be solving this soon with a turbo that makes boost almost as early as the s280 and holds power up top better than the 2860

What turbo is that? I’ve ran an oversized turbo and losing so much response down low gets old after a while.

 

[dhminer]

What turbo is that? I’ve ran an oversized turbo and losing so much response down low gets old after a while.

G25

 

[78kingcobra]

Xona rotor is a great option! Im not a huge fan of the g series garretts they dont spool as well as you think 😅 Im running one of wills xona kits with a 5451s witch is basically the same as a 3071 but with a much better turbine wheel. Its in a .64 hotside witch is perfect for what im doing with the car i make 20psi at 3800rpm in 4th and 20 at 4000 in 3rd without any crazy spool hacks in the tune. For reference the xona i have is 11mm bigger then a gtx2860r and spools identical to my old setup witch was a atp kit 2860. I do believe the best setup for these cars would be a xona 4849s with a .64 hotside. Like I mentioned in my previous reply high emap is something we want to avoid when shooting for high power numbers reliably and these trick uhf turbine wheels are a huge game changer in the turbo industry!

Great detail here, thanks for this. I ran the 2860 with Airtec + vband adapter and now run it with the WOR modified stock manifold. Gained a few hundred rpm but still no power below 4500rpm. Luckily I’ll be solving this soon with a turbo that makes boost almost as early as the s280 and holds power up top better than the 2860

 

[dhminer]

Xona rotor is a great option! Im not a huge fan of the g series garretts they dont spool as well as you think 😅 Im running one of wills xona kits with a 5451s witch is basically the same as a 3071 but with a much better turbine wheel. Its in a .64 hotside witch is perfect for what im doing with the car i make 20psi at 3800rpm in 4th and 20 at 4000 in 3rd without any crazy spool hacks in the tune. For reference the xona i have is 11mm bigger then a gtx2860r and spools identical to my old setup witch was a atp kit 2860. I do believe the best setup for these cars would be a xona 4849s with a .64 hotside. Like I mentioned in my previous reply high emap is something we want to avoid when shooting for high power numbers reliably and these trick uhf turbine wheels are a huge game changer in the turbo industry!

Curious if you can elaborate why you don’t like the g series. From what I’ve seen the G25-550 also makes 20 psi by 3800rpm in 4th. Hits 28psi max boost by 4400 and holds it to 7k

 

[78kingcobra]

Honestly thats a deep deep dive 😂 basically the reason i dont like the g series is they spool slower then gtx turbos with a properly built setup due to being slightly larger then there gtx counterparts and also having slightly larger turbine housings so g25-550 vs gtx2860. G25 has a slightly larger compressor inducer, slightly larger turbine exducer and slightly larger over trim size. Pair that with a larger .72 ar housing its going to spool slower then say a gtx2860 in a .64 tial hotside with a properly built manifold and ewg. Way slower if you compare to a .52ar hotside. Also garrett over rates all of there turbos usually by around 100whp witch gives people false hope. Reason i believe they do this is because in a perfect world with a perfect engine with perfect volumetric efficiency and flow that turbo might be able to make that claimed high number. But in the real world it doesnt work like that 😅 ive honestly never saw any small-mid frame garrett make what they claim it can. Example 2860 on a fiesta that turbos basically maxed at 400whp on a happy dyno. And on a focus st witch the 2l though it has a headifold flows way way better then the 1.6 its still a low 400whp turbo when pushed to its limits. Dont forget i said happy dyno 😅 the next issue is these 1.6s do not flow worth a crap after 370-380hp your basically making no power per pound of boost you add because the head flow sucks. We go up 4-5psi and pick up maybe 20-25whp its just inefficient. So my thinking anymore is why throw some big turbo on thats laggier then needed when once you get to that point where headflow becomes a issue its pointless its not really going to make any more power no matter the turbo without doing throttle body, cams and head porting. Now on the other end of the spectrum say you built the engine blah blah car is making some jam but your on that .72 ar housing your north of 400hp but now you just ran into exhaust reversion because that turbine wheel and housing wont flow now you just lifted the head because exhaust gases got back into the cylinder due to high emap and the thing detonated due to exhaust gas in the cylinder and lifted the head 😅 i think the overall goal here is to get a turbo that will spool quick, have lower emap and still make decent power. S280 with a bigger hotside housing would be ideal for people not wanting to go into the engine and do it on a budget but if you have the money and want a turbo that will still do all of that, is easily upgradeable and can still make another 100hp easily with the right engine combo xr4849s is what i think its going to take. Also xona has a weird rating system on there turbos so 4849 is rated for 48lb per minute but it’ll happily make that plus some on the right engine 😈 its probably a 550-600hp turbo if you use the same rating system as garrett uses 😅 if you look at the compressor map of a g25-550 its really rated for like 48-50lb per minute they just tack on that extra 50hp to make it sound cool 😂 i honestly have no idea though about the rating system with garrett though im just guessing because thats logical in my head because ALL of there turbos are over rated. I can dive deeper but id be writing a book 😂

Curious if you can elaborate why you don’t like the g series. From what I’ve seen the G25-550 also makes 20 psi by 3800rpm in 4th. Hits 28psi max boost by 4400 and holds it to 7k

 

[carnufex]

Honestly thats a deep deep dive 😂 basically the reason i dont like the g series is they spool slower then gtx turbos with a properly built setup due to being slightly larger then there gtx counterparts and also having slightly larger turbine housings so g25-550 vs gtx2860. G25 has a slightly larger compressor inducer, slightly larger turbine exducer and slightly larger over trim size. Pair that with a larger .72 ar housing its going to spool slower then say a gtx2860 in a .64 tial hotside with a properly built manifold and ewg. Way slower if you compare to a .52ar hotside. Also garrett over rates all of there turbos usually by around 100whp witch gives people false hope. Reason i believe they do this is because in a perfect world with a perfect engine with perfect volumetric efficiency and flow that turbo might be able to make that claimed high number. But in the real world it doesnt work like that 😅 ive honestly never saw any small-mid frame garrett make what they claim it can. Example 2860 on a fiesta that turbos basically maxed at 400whp on a happy dyno. And on a focus st witch the 2l though it has a headifold flows way way better then the 1.6 its still a low 400whp turbo when pushed to its limits. Dont forget i said happy dyno 😅 the next issue is these 1.6s do not flow worth a crap after 370-380hp your basically making no power per pound of boost you add because the head flow sucks. We go up 4-5psi and pick up maybe 20-25whp its just inefficient. So my thinking anymore is why throw some big turbo on thats laggier then needed when once you get to that point where headflow becomes a issue its pointless its not really going to make any more power no matter the turbo without doing throttle body, cams and head porting. Now on the other end of the spectrum say you built the engine blah blah car is making some jam but your on that .72 ar housing your north of 400hp but now you just ran into exhaust reversion because that turbine wheel and housing wont flow now you just lifted the head because exhaust gases got back into the cylinder due to high emap and the thing detonated due to exhaust gas in the cylinder and lifted the head 😅 i think the overall goal here is to get a turbo that will spool quick, have lower emap and still make decent power. S280 with a bigger hotside housing would be ideal for people not wanting to go into the engine and do it on a budget but if you have the money and want a turbo that will still do all of that, is easily upgradeable and can still make another 100hp easily with the right engine combo xr4849s is what i think its going to take. Also xona has a weird rating system on there turbos so 4849 is rated for 48lb per minute but it’ll happily make that plus some on the right engine 😈 its probably a 550-600hp turbo if you use the same rating system as garrett uses 😅 if you look at the compressor map of a g25-550 its really rated for like 48-50lb per minute they just tack on that extra 50hp to make it sound cool 😂 i honestly have no idea though about the rating system with garrett though im just guessing because thats logical in my head because ALL of there turbos are over rated. I can dive deeper but id be writing a book 😂

Awesome explanation.

 

[dhminer]

Honestly thats a deep deep dive 😂 basically the reason i dont like the g series is they spool slower then gtx turbos with a properly built setup due to being slightly larger then there gtx counterparts and also having slightly larger turbine housings so g25-550 vs gtx2860. G25 has a slightly larger compressor inducer, slightly larger turbine exducer and slightly larger over trim size. Pair that with a larger .72 ar housing its going to spool slower then say a gtx2860 in a .64 tial hotside with a properly built manifold and ewg. Way slower if you compare to a .52ar hotside. Also garrett over rates all of there turbos usually by around 100whp witch gives people false hope. Reason i believe they do this is because in a perfect world with a perfect engine with perfect volumetric efficiency and flow that turbo might be able to make that claimed high number. But in the real world it doesnt work like that 😅 ive honestly never saw any small-mid frame garrett make what they claim it can. Example 2860 on a fiesta that turbos basically maxed at 400whp on a happy dyno. And on a focus st witch the 2l though it has a headifold flows way way better then the 1.6 its still a low 400whp turbo when pushed to its limits. Dont forget i said happy dyno 😅 the next issue is these 1.6s do not flow worth a crap after 370-380hp your basically making no power per pound of boost you add because the head flow sucks. We go up 4-5psi and pick up maybe 20-25whp its just inefficient. So my thinking anymore is why throw some big turbo on thats laggier then needed when once you get to that point where headflow becomes a issue its pointless its not really going to make any more power no matter the turbo without doing throttle body, cams and head porting. Now on the other end of the spectrum say you built the engine blah blah car is making some jam but your on that .72 ar housing your north of 400hp but now you just ran into exhaust reversion because that turbine wheel and housing wont flow now you just lifted the head because exhaust gases got back into the cylinder due to high emap and the thing detonated due to exhaust gas in the cylinder and lifted the head 😅 i think the overall goal here is to get a turbo that will spool quick, have lower emap and still make decent power. S280 with a bigger hotside housing would be ideal for people not wanting to go into the engine and do it on a budget but if you have the money and want a turbo that will still do all of that, is easily upgradeable and can still make another 100hp easily with the right engine combo xr4849s is what i think its going to take. Also xona has a weird rating system on there turbos so 4849 is rated for 48lb per minute but it’ll happily make that plus some on the right engine 😈 its probably a 550-600hp turbo if you use the same rating system as garrett uses 😅 if you look at the compressor map of a g25-550 its really rated for like 48-50lb per minute they just tack on that extra 50hp to make it sound cool 😂 i honestly have no idea though about the rating system with garrett though im just guessing because thats logical in my head because ALL of there turbos are over rated. I can dive deeper but id be writing a book 😂

Appreciate that sir. I’ll be swapping my internally gated 2860 with modified stock manifold for externally gated g25 with a tubular mani in the spring.

 

[TyphoonFiST]

Why would you have to go catless on the 2860?

The bigger Turbo you go the less backpressure you want as it helps with Spooling up faster...Vs. later spool yuck! Little Turbskys like back pressure.

 

[Ace96]

Appreciate that sir. I’ll be swapping my internally gated 2860 with modified stock manifold for externally gated g25 with a tubular mani in the spring.

Please share your build as soon as it kicks off. I am sitting with the same issue where I am unsure of turbo choice. G25 550 was 1st on my list, since I have tried the GT2563R route, but was not impressed by what it made in the on like 2bar of boost(28/29PSI). Barely made 300WHP on that with all supporting mods

What I have seen is that the G25 550 comes on full boost (28/29PSI) around 4400rpm from the builds on youtube. This is about 1500rpm less than what I am doing with a GTX2563R, so I can only imagine it being good

 

[dhminer]

Please share your build as soon as it kicks off. I am sitting with the same issue where I am unsure of turbo choice. G25 550 was 1st on my list, since I have tried the GT2563R route, but was not impressed by what it made in the on like 2bar of boost(28/29PSI). Barely made 300WHP on that with all supporting mods

What I have seen is that the G25 550 comes on full boost (28/29PSI) around 4400rpm from the builds on youtube. This is about 1500rpm less than what I am doing with a GTX2563R, so I can only imagine it being good

My GTX2860 makes full boost around 4500. The G25-550 is much sooner, below 4000. Pic below of @xxiaze G25-550 vdyno for reference