Turbo time within ~2 months. Big vs hybrid, need opinions/experiences

[meekestboaster]

I ended up getting the GTX2860r for kind of an overkill reason. As in, if I wanted more power once factory fuel system is maxed out, I can easily do so with aux fuel. Its like what you said. You'll be pushing the hybrid turbo itself when trying to get ~300whp and even more so when trying to get more once you go aux fuel. Yet if you go big turbo, the turbo won't even be breaking a sweat even at 350whp since the GTX2860r is rated for 450+. Obviously if you push over 400+whp you'll have engine problems eventually but the turbo will be fine.

I went big turbo because if I wanted more power I could easily achieve it without worrying about stressing the turbo and going stupid high octane like 100 octane or something. I don't mine going with ethanol E50 though.

i wish i could go e30+, ethanol for me is just not realistic though. i'm kind of leaning toward GTX at this point. need to wait for a new exh manifold to get released before i buy anything anyway, the VUDU was discontinued. so i've got a bit of time

 

[shouldbeasy]

I ended up getting the GTX2860r for kind of an overkill reason. As in, if I wanted more power once factory fuel system is maxed out, I can easily do so with aux fuel. Its like what you said. You'll be pushing the hybrid turbo itself when trying to get ~300whp and even more so when trying to get more once you go aux fuel. Yet if you go big turbo, the turbo won't even be breaking a sweat even at 350whp since the GTX2860r is rated for 450+. Obviously if you push over 400+whp you'll have engine problems eventually but the turbo will be fine.

I went big turbo because if I wanted more power I could easily achieve it without worrying about stressing the turbo and going stupid high octane like 100 octane or something. I don't mine going with ethanol E50 though.

What’s your lag situation??

With a centrifugal turbine you make sacrifices with top end power for spool. Or vice versa.

The hybrid options pull till redline - they’re sized near perfectly to make use of near instant boost and don’t stop making boost until the engine runs out of rpm.

 

[jeffreylyon]

I went big turbo because if I wanted more power I could easily achieve it without worrying about stressing the turbo and going stupid high octane like 100 octane or something. I don't mine going with ethanol E50 though.

I think that I agree, even though Whoosh is teasing us with a bigger hybrid. When it's time to bump my turbo I'm going to go with the GTX2960R Gen II - good engineering, super tough, plenty of headroom and, from what I understand, decent spool. I'd like to experiment with the larger injectors and I think that Dizzy is game.

Re. E50 - you'll run out of fuel much faster with E50 that you will 100% petrol. I wonder if, with stock internals, E50 makes any sense when you've got plenty of fuel (aux. fueling) and would rather not melt a piston.

 

[TDavis]

What’s your lag situation??

With a centrifugal turbine you make sacrifices with top end power for spool. Or vice versa.

The hybrid options pull till redline - they’re sized near perfectly to make use of near instant boost and don’t stop making boost until the engine runs out of rpm.

Spools to 25psi around ~3500RPM and doesn't drop off so quickly, if at all, and doesn't run out of breath until 7k like others.

Say what you want about the spool and all that. I'm not saying hybrids are bad, but they have a power limit, I wanted to have plenty of room to grow while having a "safer" power band thats not too laggy for the size of the turbo. Both turbos will have their issues, just depends on what application you plan on using it on and for what purpose.

Also, regardless of which turbo dies off quicker or not having the torque kick on later down the power band helps with powertrain and drivetrain reliability since its not so immediate.

I think that I agree, even though Whoosh is teasing us with a bigger hybrid. When it's time to bump my turbo I'm going to go with the GTX2960R Gen II - good engineering, super tough, plenty of headroom and, from what I understand, decent spool. I'd like to experiment with the larger injectors and I think that Dizzy is game.

Re. E50 - you'll run out of fuel much faster with E50 that you will 100% petrol. I wonder if, with stock internals, E50 makes any sense when you've got plenty of fuel (aux. fueling) and would rather not melt a piston.

Theres a decent amount of people running E50 without any issues. But IIRC to get ~350-370whp with AUX you'll need ethanol. Correct me if I'm wrong though.

 

[jeffreylyon]

Theres a decent amount of people running E50 without any issues. But IIRC to get ~350-370whp with AUX you'll need ethanol. Correct me if I'm wrong though.

I was wondering out loud if you've got enough fueling does the tweaking that E50 will allow will just put our stock pistons and rings into blow-up territory. No doubt that E-something is a good option if you're at the limits of the turbo. I just not sure if it's a good option if you've got plenty of fuel and turbo and are at the limit of the internals. More ethanol allows a hotter burn w/o detonation and the limit or our internals seems to be the tight rings. More heat == more expansion == more likelihood that the a ring is gonna pinch and pop the side out of a hot piston. Then, again, the E-blends have less specific energy so the tunes use a higher fuel/air ratio which might make for a cooler combustion temperature?

And that's the limit of my smarts - maybe a tuner can chime in.

 

[slopoke]

Theres a decent amount of people running E50 without any issues. But IIRC to get ~350-370whp with AUX you'll need ethanol. Correct me if I'm wrong though.

I'm running a 2860 with four port, the tuner I'm using stated to me that with E40 fuel using California 91 octane, a conservative tune I should get 350 easily, 380-400 whp with an aggressive tune.

 

[shouldbeasy]

Spools to 25psi around ~3500RPM and doesn't drop off so quickly, if at all, and doesn't run out of breath until 7k like others.

Say what you want about the spool and all that. I'm not saying hybrids are bad, but they have a power limit, I wanted to have plenty of room to grow while having a "safer" power band thats not too laggy for the size of the turbo. Both turbos will have their issues, just depends on what application you plan on using it on and for what purpose.

Also, regardless of which turbo dies off quicker or not having the torque kick on later down the power band helps with powertrain and drivetrain reliability since its not so immediate.



Theres a decent amount of people running E50 without any issues. But IIRC to get ~350-370whp with AUX you'll need ethanol. Correct me if I'm wrong though.

Do you have a vdyno to verify the boost levels at 3500rpm? Not saying it doesn’t spool that fast but I’m skeptical.

I’ll dig through my logs and find the time it takes for the X-47 to make full 25psi and where it dies off (it doesn’t with that rpm limiter I have at 6850 ish).

What is your horsepower goal? Do you do a lot of straight line pulls? This car is made for corners and I have a hard time understanding why people go massive turbos (not saying yours is) unless they drag race or do 1/2 mile events or the like.

If big power and straight line speed are the name of your / whoever’s game, there are better platforms than the FiST.

 

[TDavis]

Do you have a vdyno to verify the boost levels at 3500rpm? Not saying it doesn’t spool that fast but I’m skeptical.

I’ll dig through my logs and find the time it takes for the X-47 to make full 25psi and where it dies off (it doesn’t with that rpm limiter I have at 6850 ish).

What is your horsepower goal? Do you do a lot of straight line pulls? This car is made for corners and I have a hard time understanding why people go massive turbos (not saying yours is) unless they drag race or do 1/2 mile events or the like.

If big power and straight line speed are the name of your / whoever’s game, there are better platforms than the FiST.

I'll have to dig up some charts in my spare time.

I see what you're saying though. I occasionally take my car to Heartland and eventually other tracks and I've found that I destroy cars in corners but once the straights hit it just falls on its face. With the 2860 it stays with and/or surpasses my "opponents" instead of dying off. I understand about the cornering thing too. I've found that I just need to be in a different gear and at higher RPM and its just fine once I do that. I'm still getting used to it as I haven't driven aggressive on back roads much as of yet but it just takes different gears and RPMs to be a rocket out of corners like the stock turbo was.

 

[Ceecab705]

I'm running the Mountune MRX and couldn't be happier. Obviously, I'm biased because I am BT, but it all comes down to what you're looking for. My determing factors were reliability, and not wanting all that torque that kicked in early then fell off.

 

[JDG]

Do you have a vdyno to verify the boost levels at 3500rpm? Not saying it doesn’t spool that fast but I’m skeptical.

I’ll dig through my logs and find the time it takes for the X-47 to make full 25psi and where it dies off (it doesn’t with that rpm limiter I have at 6850 ish).

What is your horsepower goal? Do you do a lot of straight line pulls? This car is made for corners and I have a hard time understanding why people go massive turbos (not saying yours is) unless they drag race or do 1/2 mile events or the like.

If big power and straight line speed are the name of your / whoever’s game, there are better platforms than the FiST.

3rd Gear

Boost at 3500RPM is 16PSIG which translates to 260 lb-ft of torque (remember the GTX flows more than the X47R so boost won't tell you the whole story)
20PSIG of boost at 3800RPM which translates to 285 lb-ft
Full boost by 4100RPM

4th Gear

Boost at 3500RPM is 20PSIG which translate to 275 lb-ft of torque
285 lb-ft of torque at 3600RPM
300 lb-ft of torque at 3800RPM
Full boost by 3900RPM

Obviously you can see I don't have aux fuel yet as I am leaning out after 6300RPM

 

[shouldbeasy]

I'm running the Mountune MRX and couldn't be happier. Obviously, I'm biased because I am BT, but it all comes down to what you're looking for. My determing factors were reliability, and not wanting all that torque that kicked in early then fell off.

Such as which options?

EDIT - does my X-47 count as 'falling off' if it goes from 25lbs to 20psi at 6200rpm? Do you routinely redline your car? I don't...

 

[shouldbeasy]

View attachment 20252

3rd Gear

Boost at 3500RPM is 16PSIG which translates to 260 lb-ft of torque (remember the GTX flows more than the X47R so boost won't tell you the whole story)
20PSIG of boost at 3800RPM which translates to 285 lb-ft
Full boost by 4100RPM

4th Gear

Boost at 3500RPM is 20PSIG which translate to 275 lb-ft of torque
285 lb-ft of torque at 3600RPM
300 lb-ft of torque at 3800RPM
Full boost by 3900RPM

Obviously you can see I don't have aux fuel yet as I am leaning out after 6300RPM

Well, full boost is full boost...

How many lbs/min does it flow at 2500 rpm? If you want to eliminate boost pressure as a reference point and get specific.


3000 rpm is 15.36 lbs/min, peaks at 6910 rpm and 27lbs/min.

 

[JDG]

Well, full boost is full boost...

How many lbs/min does it flow at 2500 rpm? If you want to eliminate boost pressure as a reference point and get specific.


3000 rpm is 15.36 lbs/min, peaks at 6910 rpm and 27lbs/min.

Is your data above 3rd gear or 4th?

For 3rd gear:

I’m not flowing 15 lbs/min until 3750rpm. 9 lbs/min at 3000rpm.

21 lbs/min at 4300rpm

27 lbs/min at 5900rpm

At 6900rpm I’m flowing 31 lbs/min but obviously that would be a lot higher if I had more fuel (52% wgdc at redline currently)

For 4th gear:
10lbs/min at 3000rpm

20 lbs/min at 3500rpm

23 lbs/min at 4300 rpm


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[shouldbeasy]

Is your data above 3rd gear or 4th?

For 3rd gear:

I’m not flowing 15 lbs/min until 3750rpm. 9 lbs/min at 3000rpm.

21 lbs/min at 4300rpm

27 lbs/min at 5900rpm

At 6900rpm I’m flowing 31 lbs/min but obviously that would be a lot higher if I had more fuel (52% wgdc at redline currently)

For 4th gear:
10lbs/min at 3000rpm

20 lbs/min at 3500rpm

23 lbs/min at 4300 rpm


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Beauty! Good info.

I think that was 3rd... I'll double check tomorrow on numbers.

How big is your wastegate?? I know the internal wastegate doesn't like the amount of air the X-47 moves...

How hard do you drive your car? Do you often hang out at 6000+ RPM? I hardly ever get that deep in to the RPM.

 

[JDG]

Beauty! Good info.

I think that was 3rd... I'll double check tomorrow on numbers.

How big is your wastegate?? I know the internal wastegate doesn't like the amount of air the X-47 moves...

How hard do you drive your car? Do you often hang out at 6000+ RPM? I hardly ever get that deep in to the RPM.

I wouldn't say I often hand out above 6000+ RPM, no but for back roads and autocross, it is nice to be stay in 2nd gear or 3rd gear and not have to shift because power falls off after 6K. Literally the difference between driving a GTX powered fiesta and one with a hybrid turbo is 1 gear. Where you may be in 3rd, I'll be in 2nd. And sometimes, because I may make 50 less torque at 3250RPM then I would have with a stage 3 stock turbo (or hybrid) I can give it more throttle in a corner and not break traction.

I drive my car hard, 85% of the time, lol.

I have the stiffer wastegate actuator from Tune+ with the standard Garrett IWG. No boost creep.

 

[shouldbeasy]

I wouldn't say I often hand out above 6000+ RPM, no but for back roads and autocross, it is nice to be stay in 2nd gear or 3rd gear and not have to shift because power falls off after 6K. Literally the difference between driving a GTX powered fiesta and one with a hybrid turbo is 1 gear. Where you may be in 3rd, I'll be in 2nd. And sometimes, because I may make 50 less torque at 3250RPM then I would have with a stage 3 stock turbo (or hybrid) I can give it more throttle in a corner and not break traction.

I drive my car hard, 85% of the time, lol.

I have the stiffer wastegate actuator from Tune+ with the standard Garrett IWG. No boost creep.

I drive my car hard too but apparently some of y’all are on a whole ‘nutha level.

Have you thought about gearing to push the RPM up? Shorter gears could be fun with your set up as described.

I’m not having an issue with boost creep (as you stated, the hybrids run out of steam at the top) but my problem is that it spools TOO fast and the IWG can’t actuate fast enough (or with proper modulation) to accommodate the high flow rate at low rpm.

Adding a turbo blanket only accentuated the problem!

 

[EnthusiaST]

If it were my car and my money I would grab a hybrid (probably whoosh or that new s280) over a big turbo. Ease of install, near stock lower powerband/drivability and price make me lean towards a hybrid setup. I also don’t foresee a time where I’ll need more than low to mid 300 wheel on this platform and if that time ever came with the hybrid I would just sell the hybrid and buy a larger turbo. If you’re really torn I would find some local fist members near you and have them take you for a ride/drive in their different setups. Good luck OP.


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[MRX330]

I think one thing that isn’t scrutinized enough in buying an aftermarket turbo is balls, ball bearings that is. That shaft(ha ha) is spinning ridiculously fast with long duty cycles. Btw, the MRX has ball bearings in case you were wondering.
Hey man, good luck

 

[CSM]

I have X37 installed and Dyno tuned by Mitch@CP-E. It is very daily drivable. Basically feels like factory just a bigger torque kick at the low end and much more top end HP. See graphs here:

http://imgur.com/8DtTkXX

View: https://imgur.com/8DtTkXX

***Keep in mind they use a Mustang dyno. I've had the car on a dynojet in the past and based on % increase I'm at around 258hp on 93 and 275hp on E30 dynojet equiv numbers

If you like how the factory car drives and just want more of that feel, go with the hybrid

 

[Bizzareo]

Lots of flames going on in here. Lets go back to numbers/pros cons

I went with gtx2860r gen 2 (won it on a FB raffle lol) with a .52 ar ratio housing. (build thread to happen soon). I'm replicating the old DHM setup (no aux fuel). It's being installed currently.

If I was buying a turbo I would still go Garrett. The potential for power is greater. Now that said the X57R seems interesting. It really depends on what you want to do with the car. I'm aiming to build a motor in the next two years and max this turbo out.