Reasonable solutions for traction and torque steer on daily driver Stage 1 car

[danbfree]

So even with just a canned Stratified tune and mild intake mods, traction and wheel hop is definitely an issue, even when with the improved late builds RMM, I'm already into the mid power band I can see the excellent Stratified TC kicking in a bit on WOT... I have no plans for turbo upgrades, just trying to get the car dialed in a bit... I installed a short shift kit the other night, absolutely must have, for the precision improvement alone, I have no idea why Ford didn't just use a better linkage mounting point, but I have a Torque Solution 75a RMM going in tomorrow. So we will see how things are improved after that, I like the 75a in theory as it's a bit stiffer than Cobb but not crazy stiff 88a like some of the others are...

SO, I'm looking at inexpensive solutions to help further, I'm sure the RMM will help some with traction of course but also want to address torque steer. There is the Pierce brace for $90, but also found this Traction Bar that doesn't cost much more but seems to be a little beefier... With a '17 I'm happy with the thicker rear torsion beam and looking to do Eibach springs in the future for looks, better center of gravity and the progressive rate to help with the little road imperfections, etc., but really beyond this I don't expect to mod much more... So, best bet for torque steer and traction? I'm hoping just a single item like I mention above will do the trick but looking for feedback from what you guys have found works well. TIA!

 

[Truth in Ruin]

I have Stratified’s E30 tune; I’m stage 2 (BIG MOUTH ram-air w/ drop-in, Whoosh intercooler), and I’m having zero problems with torque steer. I’m using Stratified’s traction control w/ the Pierce 2-point brace, and Cobb RMM.

 

[BRGT350]

I am surprised you are having an issue with torque steer. Maybe I have been driving modified FWD cars for so long that I just consider it normal. I don't think the ST has any torque steer that warrants trying to find a solution. I used to need a good 45 degrees of steering input on my Focuses to keep them straight under maximum acceleration. I barely need to touch the wheel on the ST. I kind of miss wresting the steering wheel for control.

As for wheel hop, the RMM is a must and the harder the bushing the better for controlling wheel hop. Next would be to replace the control arm bushings to either urethane, aluminum, or solid steel heim joints. Wheel hop is a function of the rubber bushings compressing and expanding at high frequency and the oscillations being transmitted into the wheel/tire enough to cause the hop to occur. Stiffer bushings have less compression and expansion, therefore the amount of wheel hop is reduced. On a FWD car, it is harder to fully remove it since the solutions create a great deal more NVH in the cabin. On my Mustang, I use completely different rear suspension geometry and a mix of urethane and solid steel heim joints. Wheel hop is pretty much eliminated, but I do need to watch for brake induced wheel hop under hard braking. That can kill a drivetrain very quickly. I reduce the rear brake bias to help combat the issue. Even with the bushings, it is still important to monitor your launch RPM to try and reduce any amount of wheel slip that can help induce rapid bushing oscillation. It is very rare I get any wheel hop in my ST. If it does occur, it tends to be in damp conditions.

I don't run any additional bracing on my ST as I haven't found a design that really does anything to warrant the expense. There are always too many other deflection points that need to be addressed first along with greatly increasing the traction force. On a street car with factory bushings and normal summer tires (not DOT approved competition tires), there just isn't enough traction to justify the braces. The Fiesta chassis is pretty damn stiff and most of the braces on the market aren't going to do anything to make it stiffer.

 

[danbfree]

I have Stratified’s E30 tune; I’m stage 2 (BIG MOUTH ram-air w/ drop-in, Whoosh intercooler), and I’m having zero problems with torque steer. I’m using Stratified’s traction control w/ the Pierce 2-point brace, and Cobb RMM.

That's good to hear, so did the Pierce brace help quite a bit?

 

[danbfree]

I am surprised you are having an issue with torque steer. Maybe I have been driving modified FWD cars for so long that I just consider it normal. I don't think the ST has any torque steer that warrants trying to find a solution. I used to need a good 45 degrees of steering input on my Focuses to keep them straight under maximum acceleration. I barely need to touch the wheel on the ST. I kind of miss wresting the steering wheel for control.

As for wheel hop, the RMM is a must and the harder the bushing the better for controlling wheel hop. Next would be to replace the control arm bushings to either urethane, aluminum, or solid steel heim joints. Wheel hop is a function of the rubber bushings compressing and expanding at high frequency and the oscillations being transmitted into the wheel/tire enough to cause the hop to occur. Stiffer bushings have less compression and expansion, therefore the amount of wheel hop is reduced. On a FWD car, it is harder to fully remove it since the solutions create a great deal more NVH in the cabin. On my Mustang, I use completely different rear suspension geometry and a mix of urethane and solid steel heim joints. Wheel hop is pretty much eliminated, but I do need to watch for brake induced wheel hop under hard braking. That can kill a drivetrain very quickly. I reduce the rear brake bias to help combat the issue. Even with the bushings, it is still important to monitor your launch RPM to try and reduce any amount of wheel slip that can help induce rapid bushing oscillation. It is very rare I get any wheel hop in my ST. If it does occur, it tends to be in damp conditions.

I don't run any additional bracing on my ST as I haven't found a design that really does anything to warrant the expense. There are always too many other deflection points that need to be addressed first along with greatly increasing the traction force. On a street car with factory bushings and normal summer tires (not DOT approved competition tires), there just isn't enough traction to justify the braces. The Fiesta chassis is pretty damn stiff and most of the braces on the market aren't going to do anything to make it stiffer.

OK, so I came from a Korean 1.6t with a bigger turbo and it still seems my FiST has even more torque steer, maybe you are pretty immune to it... but you bring up some great points, thanks for taking the time for all the detail, I had good feedback on the Pierce 2 point in reducing torque steer, so I'm thinking that the Traction Bar for only $130 shipped may be a good one-item to do, but yes, I do have to wrestle mine, maybe it's because I have the all-season option, even if it is great tire for all-season, not sure... Also, can you link me to any control arm bushings you'd recommend? Is the lower inner ones or?

 

[Truth in Ruin]

I am surprised you are having an issue with torque steer. Maybe I have been driving modified FWD cars for so long that I just consider it normal. I don't think the ST has any torque steer that warrants trying to find a solution. I used to need a good 45 degrees of steering input on my Focuses to keep them straight under maximum acceleration. I barely need to touch the wheel on the ST. I kind of miss wresting the steering wheel for control.

As for wheel hop, the RMM is a must and the harder the bushing the better for controlling wheel hop. Next would be to replace the control arm bushings to either urethane, aluminum, or solid steel heim joints. Wheel hop is a function of the rubber bushings compressing and expanding at high frequency and the oscillations being transmitted into the wheel/tire enough to cause the hop to occur. Stiffer bushings have less compression and expansion, therefore the amount of wheel hop is reduced. On a FWD car, it is harder to fully remove it since the solutions create a great deal more NVH in the cabin. On my Mustang, I use completely different rear suspension geometry and a mix of urethane and solid steel heim joints. Wheel hop is pretty much eliminated, but I do need to watch for brake induced wheel hop under hard braking. That can kill a drivetrain very quickly. I reduce the rear brake bias to help combat the issue. Even with the bushings, it is still important to monitor your launch RPM to try and reduce any amount of wheel slip that can help induce rapid bushing oscillation. It is very rare I get any wheel hop in my ST. If it does occur, it tends to be in damp conditions.

I don't run any additional bracing on my ST as I haven't found a design that really does anything to warrant the expense. There are always too many other deflection points that need to be addressed first along with greatly increasing the traction force. On a street car with factory bushings and normal summer tires (not DOT approved competition tires), there just isn't enough traction to justify the braces. The Fiesta chassis is pretty damn stiff and most of the braces on the market aren't going to do anything to make it stiffer.

You gave me your opinion about braces a year, or two ago. Something along the lines of they won’t do much, but make your car heavier, and pocket book lighter. I respect your opinion, and I’m sure there’s some truth to it. That said, I’m claiming that my 2-point does make a difference. Whether or not it’s worth the $90 is up to the individual. For me, it is. I do notice a slight difference in turn in, but it’s something you have to pay attention to to notice, so it’s really not that big of a difference there, but it’s definitely a noticeable difference in traction.

 

[Truth in Ruin]

That's good to hear, so did the Pierce brace help quite a bit?

Others my have their own opinion, but for me, yes. After I put it on- I could not get the traction light to come on in second gear while in a tangent when the car was stock. I noticed this on several WOT pulls.

 

[danbfree]

Others my have their own opinion, but for me, yes. After I put it on- I could not get the traction light to come on in second gear while in a tangent when the car was stock. I noticed this on several WOT pulls.

Excellent feedback, thanks... Not sure if you saw my LINK to the Traction Bar, but it's only $130 with free shipping... it was posted on one of the FB groups, I didn't know about them before... anyway, good to hear a little $90 brace helps with traction, and both of these are very lightweight, so I don't see why not? I mean, I'm sure I will still have some wheel hop and traction issues, but if I can reduce wheel hop and torque steer a decent amount to where I'm getting more tire spin instead of hop then I'll be quite happy!

 

[BRGT350]

OK, so I came from a Korean 1.6t with a bigger turbo and it still seems my FiST has even more torque steer, maybe you are pretty immune to it... but you bring up some great points, thanks for taking the time for all the detail, I had good feedback on the Pierce 2 point in reducing torque steer, so I'm thinking that the Traction Bar for only $140 or so shipped may be a good one-item to do, but yes, I do have to wrestle mine, maybe it's because I have the all-season option, even if it is great tire for all-season, not sure... Also, can you link me to any control arm bushings you'd recommend? Is the lower inner ones or?

I never really thought about the affect of the all seasons on torque steer or wheel hop. When I am running my winter tires, I am pretty gentle on them since I know they have poor dry weather traction. Usually the TC light comes on before any wheel hop. The amount of torque steer is more pronounced on ice and snow, so perhaps tire traction plays a role differently than I had thought of before. A harder compound or less grippy tire would break traction faster and the sudden loss of traction sends torque into the suspension to set-off the bushings. That would lead to more wheel hop for sure. Could that be more torque steer as well? Not sure, this one really has me thinking. I haven't driven a ST on all-season tires nor tried hard acceleration on my winter tires in the dry to see how they react.

Here are some bushings for the front http://www.pumaspeed.com/product-Su...trol-Arm-Lower-Inner-Front-Bush-Kit_17136.jsp

 

[BRGT350]

You gave me your opinion about braces a year, or two ago. Something along the lines of they won’t do much, but make your car heavier, and pocket book lighter. I respect your opinion, and I’m sure there’s some truth to it. That said, I’m claiming that my 2-point does make a difference. Whether or not it’s worth the $90 is up to the individual. For me, it is. I do notice a slight difference in turn in, but it’s something you have to pay attention to to notice, so it’s really not that big of a difference there, but it’s definitely a noticeable difference in traction.

That is good, I don't have any real world experience to back up my opinion. Looking at where the braces connect and the forces involved, I just don't see a lot of them on the market working. Mostly it is the shock tower brace that I don't see working. All I have is a theoretical hypothesis based upon the design and placement of the products.

 

[danbfree]

I never really thought about the affect of the all seasons on torque steer or wheel hop. When I am running my winter tires, I am pretty gentle on them since I know they have poor dry weather traction. Usually the TC light comes on before any wheel hop. The amount of torque steer is more pronounced on ice and snow, so perhaps tire traction plays a role differently than I had thought of before. A harder compound or less grippy tire would break traction faster and the sudden loss of traction sends torque into the suspension to set-off the bushings. That would lead to more wheel hop for sure. Could that be more torque steer as well? Not sure, this one really has me thinking. I haven't driven a ST on all-season tires nor tried hard acceleration on my winter tires in the dry to see how they react.

Here are some bushings for the front http://www.pumaspeed.com/product-Su...trol-Arm-Lower-Inner-Front-Bush-Kit_17136.jsp

Thanks for your thoughts and the link, the "front lower inner" is what I was thinking, thanks...

 

[danbfree]

That is good, I don't have any real world experience to back up my opinion. Looking at where the braces connect and the forces involved, I just don't see a lot of them on the market working. Mostly it is the shock tower brace that I don't see working. All I have is a theoretical hypothesis based upon the design and placement of the products.

Yeah, definitely not looking at shock tower, I'm looking at those lower ones that literally just brace those 2 points of the subframe right below the axles... to me it makes sense that with a higher power FWD car that there could be decent amount of flex going on there under power.

 

[Truth in Ruin]

That is good, I don't have any real world experience to back up my opinion. Looking at where the braces connect and the forces involved, I just don't see a lot of them on the market working. Mostly it is the shock tower brace that I don't see working. All I have is a theoretical hypothesis based upon the design and placement of the products.

Funny you mention the shock tower brace not working. [MENTION=3995]jeff[/MENTION] installed one, and said it made no noticeable difference as well.

 

[jeff]

I started a few threads on this issue with detailed reviews of products but to abbreviate:

TRACTION
1. Better tires - my +1 size upgrade to a super sticky tire helped more than anything.

2. Front bar - the upper bars do very little, maybe they would make a difference on the track but for street driving I noticed no difference with either the upper strut bar or the rear trunk brace. A lower bar does wonders though. The two point made a very noticeable difference and the six point, which I recently installed in its place, is absolutely fantastic and helps the car feel more together in every day driving over road imperfections and expansion joints and such as well.

3. RMM - it’s all true, I have tried several and I found a part flexible and part solid hybrid to be perfect for my needs.

4. Rear torsion bar - makes a noticeable difference but not as much is the first two things I mentioned, more in handling but not with traction.

5. Tune with traction control dialed in - you can get traction control added to a stratified tune pretty cheap, and if you get a custom tune you can have the default selection customized to your exact desire in terms of how much interference you do or don’t want. Obviously this will have a significant impact on traction as that is the purpose of traction control. And it’s way better than the Ford factory TC already on the car, way better for sure!

TORQUE STEER
1. The 6 point brace mentioned above drastically reduced my torque steer problems, much more so than the two point, though the two point did help.

2. Upgraded mounts all over or mount inserts - again already discussed but I think the part of torque steer that affects the car itself less and the way the driver feels more is helped by upgrading all three motor mount or at least adding a mount insert. At least the perception of torque steer is lessened that’s for sure.

3. Dialing in traction control also as mentioned above is going to help control the car better which I think will also have an effect on lessening torque steer.

Hope that helps. These things definitely make the car more enjoyable. PM me your number if you want to chat further and we’ll talk on the phone.

 

[danbfree]

I started a few threads on this issue with detailed reviews of products but to abbreviate:

TRACTION
1. Better tires - my +1 size upgrade to a super sticky tire helped more than anything.

2. Front bar - the upper bars do very little, maybe they would make a difference on the track but for street driving I noticed no difference with either the upper strut bar or the rear trunk brace. A lower bar does wonders though. The two point made a very noticeable difference and the six point, which I recently installed in its place, is absolutely fantastic and helps the car feel more together in every day driving over road imperfections and expansion joints and such as well.

3. RMM - it’s all true, I have tried several and I found a part flexible and part solid hybrid to be perfect for my needs.

4. Rear torsion bar - makes a noticeable difference but not as much is the first two things I mentioned, more in handling but not with traction.

5. Tune with traction control dialed in - you can get traction control added to a stratified tune pretty cheap, and if you get a custom tune you can have the default selection customized to your exact desire in terms of how much interference you do or don’t want. Obviously this will have a significant impact on traction as that is the purpose of traction control. And it’s way better than the Ford factory TC already on the car, way better for sure!

TORQUE STEER
1. The 6 point brace mentioned above drastically reduced my torque steer problems, much more so than the two point, though the two point did help.

2. Upgraded mounts all over or mount inserts - again already discussed but I think the part of torque steer that affects the car itself less and the way the driver feels more is helped by upgrading all three motor mount or at least adding a mount insert. At least the perception of torque steer is lessened that’s for sure.

3. Dialing in traction control also as mentioned above is going to help control the car better which I think will also have an effect on lessening torque steer.

Hope that helps. These things definitely make the car more enjoyable. PM me your number if you want to chat further and we’ll talk on the phone.

Thank you! Yes, I have the Stratified TC, enabled by default, sorry if you didn't notice me mentioning that if I rambled on too long in my post, I would like to see it not have to kick in as much... So ya, getting the RMM done tomorrow and from there do the TB performance traction bar, found lots of older posts from here and the other dead FiST board talking wonders about it... Is it better than the Pierce 2 point? Not sure but looks beefier and is only $130 with free shipping, sounds worth it to me!

 

[jeff]

Not sure about comparing Tb vs. Pierce, I have the Pierce never tried the other.

What I meant was you can get the traction control custom dialed in to be exactly what you want as the default instead of having it in a setting you don’t like each time you start the car.

Thank you! Yes, I have the Stratified TC, enabled by default, sorry if you didn't notice me mentioning that if I rambled on too long in my post, I would like to see it not have to kick in as much... So ya, getting the RMM done tomorrow and from there do the TB performance traction bar, found lots of older posts from here and the other dead FiST board talking wonders about it... Is it better than the Pierce 2 point? Not sure but looks beefier and is only $130 with free shipping, sounds worth it to me!

 

[danbfree]

I started a few threads on this issue with detailed reviews of products but to abbreviate:

TRACTION
1. Better tires - my +1 size upgrade to a super sticky tire helped more than anything.

2. Front bar - the upper bars do very little, maybe they would make a difference on the track but for street driving I noticed no difference with either the upper strut bar or the rear trunk brace. A lower bar does wonders though. The two point made a very noticeable difference and the six point, which I recently installed in its place, is absolutely fantastic and helps the car feel more together in every day driving over road imperfections and expansion joints and such as well.

3. RMM - it’s all true, I have tried several and I found a part flexible and part solid hybrid to be perfect for my needs.

4. Rear torsion bar - makes a noticeable difference but not as much is the first two things I mentioned, more in handling but not with traction.

5. Tune with traction control dialed in - you can get traction control added to a stratified tune pretty cheap, and if you get a custom tune you can have the default selection customized to your exact desire in terms of how much interference you do or don’t want. Obviously this will have a significant impact on traction as that is the purpose of traction control. And it’s way better than the Ford factory TC already on the car, way better for sure!

TORQUE STEER
1. The 6 point brace mentioned above drastically reduced my torque steer problems, much more so than the two point, though the two point did help.

2. Upgraded mounts all over or mount inserts - again already discussed but I think the part of torque steer that affects the car itself less and the way the driver feels more is helped by upgrading all three motor mount or at least adding a mount insert. At least the perception of torque steer is lessened that’s for sure.

3. Dialing in traction control also as mentioned above is going to help control the car better which I think will also have an effect on lessening torque steer.

Hope that helps. These things definitely make the car more enjoyable. PM me your number if you want to chat further and we’ll talk on the phone.

For tires, I hear 215/40/17 fit fine, but just need to wear through these very decent Pilot Sport A/S 3's first, then maybe a 215/40/17 in the Federal 595, or even some cheap sticky all seasons, we'll see, as I do need a decent cold rain tire too... I just wish the Ford system could be set to Sport Mode by default, I hate having to remember to push the button EVERY time I simply don't want the stock system to kick in before the Stratified... And the RMM is a 75a, a little stiffer than Cobb and if after a couple of weeks of settling it still has too much vibe for me I'll have Stratified modify my tune for 1000 RPM idle... But also, since I do have a '17 with the bigger front sway bar, stiffer/thicker rear torsion, hopefully won't have to mess with much else than the traction bar!

 

[TURBO BLACK]

i agree with you the shock tower bar does nothing

 

[danbfree]

Not sure about comparing Tb vs. Pierce, I have the Pierce never tried the other.

What I meant was you can get the traction control custom dialed in to be exactly what you want as the default instead of having it in a setting you don’t like each time you start the car.

The TC is already set to their optimal, apparently it was a change from previously? I don't want to be breaking the tires loose midway through a WOT pull, and now I see it kick in tiny amounts with no slipping so to me that's optimal, I just want a little more traction so it doesn't have to do that.

 

[HBEcoBeaST]

Good tires and a brace really help. The 2pt Pierce I've driven and torque steer and wheel hop is greatly reduced but not eliminated. If the wheel is turned even the slightest and you mash the throttle expect to still wrestle the wheel a bit. I'm looking into their 4pt for my needs.

And for what it's worth the rear torsion bar does keep the back planted better than stock. Very noticeable in auto-x or parking lot cone style events. Around town? Not so much.

I've only driven with the braces on my friend's stage 3 running 91oct. My own car makes quite a bit more torque (and possibly hp) since I'm E30. I would not feel adequate with the 2pt if eliminating torque steer was my main goal. I'm looking into a 4pt since I get a ton of wheel hop with my cheap 380AA all seasons.

I am not a fan of electronic TC at all. Faster? Maybe. But less fun (for me).


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