x37-47 / 2554-60 / C39 / ST280 - Small Turbo Comparison Thread

[WeTheNorth]

Some say it's the tuning. I'm not totally sure, I'm not a turbine engineer. Just take a look here. [MENTION=688]Sourskittle[/MENTION] is no tuner by any means, but he pushed his car right up to 290+ whp on v dyno. He is right. Nobody wants to take an interest in a turbo they don't produce/sell/make. The cyborg IS capable of x37 numbers. You need to find that somebody to tune it to its potential. Read this whole page

http://www.fiestastforum.com/forum/threads/2857-Cyborg-Upgraded-Stock-Turbocharger-System/page93

Sucks that Russ or Alex can't chime in for the cyborgs Defense, clarify what they think it can make etc on pump 93? We can't have just one tuner , when it comes to cyborgs

 

[BronxBomber]

I don't think it's a matter of hey can't, probably more like they don't have he time to be reading through various threads to comment on a turbo neither of them sell. If you PM Russ, I'm sure he'll respond.

 

[BoostBumps]

A Compressor map would help, then you could see efficiency and flow ratings .

View attachment 10597

thanks for posting Sekred....

And here is link to a thread started awhile back which discusses and shows results (towards end of thread) from some members that installed these turbos which might be helpful for some to review...

Turbo Upgrade - GT2554R or GT2560R? Expectations?

 

[BoostBumps]

X-37 Hybrid, ATP 2554, 2560, Cyborg Questions

Thought it might be helpful to list these threads (below) in one post...Not sure if all of these links have been posted throughout this thread but here's a few Turbo threads per topic listed below with results and further discussions....

Official Pumaspeed X-37 Hybrid Turbo Thread

Turbo Upgrade - GT2554R or GT2560R? Expectations?

Cyborg Upgraded Stock Turbocharger System

 

[WeTheNorth]

X37 seems like the most convienent choice, no long wait times and Adam sells and tunes them

Cyborg has a long build time and I will need to find someone to tune it.

Just thinking out loud here (for myself) thing with SS is it's a whole package, better inlet pipe, porting headers etc

It's not simple a anymore ...

 

[Joszer]

Best was somewhere between 230whp and 240whp on E30 in vDyno. It's been a very long time and I can't remember clearly... I didn't have a very dedicated tuner at the time; Panda was going through a rough transition.


Scent from Glade Air Freshener

With my Cyborg, E30 + 45 Degree ambient temps, the most I saw was 238-240

 

[WeTheNorth]

With my Cyborg, E30 + 45 Degree ambient temps, the most I saw was 238-240

I would be only limited to pump gas , so that means the SS cyborg won't do anything for me, if I base it on your e30.

 

[localbacon]

Because it mentions ATP in the title of the post, I'll throw in my two cents and success I had with ATP in regard to cost/power. With a new house with a baby on the way, my funds were limited to my overtime pay. It also helped that I have a reputable shop in the area that I work that help me out tons . I feel that too many people rely on vdynos that can be manipulated via road grade, entered weight and tire size. Those wouldn't be so bad, but there are not too many BEFORE and AFTER runs with aftermarket turbos, just AFTERs. I can easily make my vdyno read 300whp by Dynojet correction factor and having a less-than-accurate weight entered. That being said, if I had the $$$ and no physical dyno-tuner in the area, I would have gone the DHM route. I am loving this thread because it is challenging the status quo of the aftermarket turbos! An educated buyer is a smart buyer. If you find yourself on the side of majority, take a step back and look around. Any questions are welcome; I'm all about full disclosure for the betterment of the community. I'm still learning everday. Posted this in the ATP BT thread many moons ago:

I have the ATP 2554 kit. Other power mods are 2jr DP (no cat) to Cobb CBE with cutout, Levels intercooler, Injen intake. The shop that I go to have a 'heartbreaker dyno', it is true wheel HP with no corrections, hence lower numbers. They actually pride themselves on having a low reading dyno; no number-jockeys there!

With the intake and factory tune, it put down 165WHP. With the intake and stage 1 OTS tune, it put down 171WHP with a bump in low end torque. Factory tires, 205/40/17s.

After running around stage 3 with a e-tune, I wanted more power. Ended up going with a full recirc system b/c I'm tired out PSSSHHHTTTT every shift around town. The 2554 put out 179WHP on the stage 3 e-tune, no graph though. This was done on RE71s, 205/45/17.

The two dynoruns are a year apart, but the air temp and humidity were within 4F/% of each other. If factory numbers are correct, 165whp/197crankhp=0.837 for drive train loss of 16.3%. If those numbers stay correct, 241.9WHP x 1.163= 281 crank HP. In the interest of full disclosure, the factory dyno pull was on the standard 205/40/17, the big(ger) turbo tires were 205/45/17 RE 71s. I like to think it is a solid 270 crank HP performer.

It was dyno tuned and tops out 17-18.5 PSI depending on the day. The Levels intercooler keeps up with new turbo without a hitch despite what others might say; a 1-3 pull yielded 12F increase (84F to 96F). This is MUCH better than what I would run with the factory turbo tuned at 24PSI+. At that PSI and with that turbo being way outside its efficiency, it was just heating up air and overloading the FMIC.

Use the drop down top left to switch datalogs.

http://www.datazap.me/u/localbacon/log-1462989288?log=1&data=3-4-5-9-12-24

For my car and altitude (14.4psi), it would have done no good for me too run 20-plus pounds of boost and go outside the efficiency range of this turbo. My tuner said he could get close to 255WHP by going 10/10s and adding MOARRR BOOOOSTA and approach max fuel duty cycle, but that is his reputation on the line; we both value reliability over 10-15 more WHP. It a nut shell, less power below 3K, but it comes alive above 3K. The 2554 will spool to about 10PSI below 3k and goes up rapidly from there. The air lb/min reads about 25 most days, but as Adam said before that figure is inferred; not a true measurement #. This is mainly an autocross car and I have not problem with the lower power below 3K. It actually helps that I'm not spinning the tires with a buttload of low end torque like the factory turbo on both the street and track, my tires aren't shredding as much lol. Highway brake boosting at 4K is awesomeeeeeeee. I have yet to take it to the 1/4, but it pulls on my friends factory Focus ST very well. To 80MPH from a stoplight roll, it puts ~3 car lengths on a bolt on FiST. Again, any questions are welcome; I'm all about full disclosure.

And my favorite shoot for the 2015 autox season:

 

[15performanceblue]

I would be only limited to pump gas , so that means the SS cyborg won't do anything for me, if I base it on your e30.

I am removing my cyborg kit, external waste gate and all, ported manifold, heat wrap and turbo blanket for it. I made 230 on 93 from russell. My car has issues that need to be worked out so I could not get it pushed. I know Russell can make more on the cyborg on 93 then he did on mine. how much more? Not sure. but I can tell, the car felt great for the little time I was on 93. It is currently being removed and I will be selling it, so if you you want it PM me and we will talk. if you want more specifics about the cyborg I will tell you anything you want as I experienced it for myself.

 

[Hijinx]

I feel that too many people rely on vdynos that can be manipulated via road grade, entered weight and tire size. Those wouldn't be so bad, but there are not too many BEFORE and AFTER runs with aftermarket turbos, just AFTERs. I can easily make my vdyno read 300whp by Dynojet correction factor and having a less-than-accurate weight entered.

In the interest of "full-disclosure" why do you feel this way about vdyno? I'm curious as to if this is what you were told, or if it is a conclusion you've come into on your own. To frame this side conversation: If a person has entered the correct values, datalogs on the same road for before and after, are they not utilizing a tool? Furthermore, what's to stop someone from only having an AFTER real dyno? Would an AFTER dyno be more legitmate than a BEFORE/AFTER vdyno? Last question, if someone could show you a real dyno and a vdyno of the same car, showing results within 5whp, on the same tune what would you think of vdyno?

 

[dyn085]

In the interest of full-disclosure, I love V-Dyno. If it's used correctly, as a tool to measure delta, it's a very cheap (read: free) way to accurately measure gains of modifications or tune changes. I can take millions of runs on V-Dyno for the cost of one single run on a dynamometer.

Can it be altered to read something incorrect? Absolutely. Have I seen plenty of incorrect 'real' dyno charts done by tuners and manufacturers that are interested in getting your money or by incompetent dyno operators? Absolutely.

Just like any tool, it's only as effective as the operator.

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk

 

[localbacon]

In the interest of "full-disclosure" why do you feel this way about vdyno? I'm curious as to if this is what you were told, or if it is a conclusion you've come into on your own. To frame this side conversation: If a person has entered the correct values, datalogs on the same road for before and after, are they not utilizing a tool? Furthermore, what's to stop someone from only having an AFTER real dyno? Would an AFTER dyno be more legitmate than a BEFORE/AFTER vdyno? Last question, if someone could show you a real dyno and a vdyno of the same car, showing results within 5whp, on the same tune what would you think of vdyno?

IF if if if, if a person entered the correct values and has a flat piece of road. This is the internet, people lie to make themselves feel good about running big numbers to strangers on the internet. It is even worst when $$$ is involved. I had a local ST'er tell me I was lying about my #'s because I wasn't running X amount of boost. 1) Why should I drive the turbo outside its efficiency zone just to have X amount of boost because that is what everyone else has. So my tuner made power with less PSI, good on him. I just want to put my true graphs, datalogs and numbers out there for other users so they can make a well informed decision instead of the "flavor of the month turbo".

I've read the threads and even w/ the vdynos there are only a handful before/after that are worth their salt. An AFTER dyno sheet doesn't hold much weight if there is no BEFORE dyno sheet; again it is just a number, virtual or rollers. One plot point with no reference is of no use to any of us, it just turns into an appendage waving competition. I can adjust my vdyno values to match my real-life dyno sheet very easily just as anyone can. I view a vdyno as a tool just as any other, but I don't believe it is one to be flaunted as 100% truth with single plot point. I have a 2JR intake coming in. I'm going to do 5 vdyno runs with my Injen, install and then 5 vdyno runs with the 2JR. Average them out and then I can see if it did anything or if it still just varies within the margin of error. That is what vdyno is superb for. Someone earlier mention, trap speed is a good comparison for cars. I had a SRT8 that dynoed 383WHP but ran 12.4@112 with a race weight of 4450lbs; others running the same trap speed +-2mph claimed 440WHP+ with similar mods. Again, it was a appendage waving competition on those forums, even worse so than in the ST community.

There are many people dropping stacks but don't spend the drop in the bucket to see a before plot point. If you are dumping 2-6k into a car, I sure as hell would want it done as scientifically as possible AKA on a controlled dyno, the same dyno both times. OP asked for only real dynos numbers and I provided mine.

OP, antarctica24 , said it best:

When you are doing a virtual dyno there is no standard for replicating the test. The gear your in, the temp, the location, the altitude, fuel, the person conducting the test, etc. Running your car using the virual dyno is useless if the tests are not consistent between those who are testing to use for any meaningful comparison. I am sure there are those out here that are VD experts. But there are others that are not, and each of you is not within 10% consistent of each other, not to mention location and conditions.

TL;DR - Single plot points are of no use to anyone. If there are 2+ plot points, consistency must be paramount. Bigger numbers are just that, big numbers. Boost isn't everything.

 

[Hijinx]

IF if if if, if a person entered the correct values and has a flat piece of road. This is the internet, people lie to make themselves feel good about running big numbers to strangers on the internet. It is even worst when $$$ is involved. I had a local ST'er tell me I was lying about my #'s because I wasn't running X amount of boost. 1) Why should I drive the turbo outside its efficiency zone just to have X amount of boost because that is what everyone else has. So my tuner made power with less PSI, good on him. I just want to put my true graphs, datalogs and numbers out there for other users so they can make a well informed decision instead of the "flavor of the month turbo".

I've read the threads and even w/ the vdynos there are only a handful before/after that are worth their salt. An AFTER dyno sheet doesn't hold much weight if there is no BEFORE dyno sheet; again it is just a number, virtual or rollers. One plot point with no reference is of no use to any of us, it just turns into an appendage waving competition. I can adjust my vdyno values to match my real-life dyno sheet very easily just as anyone can. I view a vdyno as a tool just as any other, but I don't believe it is one to be flaunted as 100% truth with single plot point. I have a 2JR intake coming in. I'm going to do 5 vdyno runs with my Injen, install and then 5 vdyno runs with the 2JR. Average them out and then I can see if it did anything or if it still just varies within the margin of error. That is what vdyno is superb for. Someone earlier mention, trap speed is a good comparison for cars. I had a SRT8 that dynoed 383WHP but ran 12.4@112 with a race weight of 4450lbs; others running the same trap speed +-2mph claimed 440WHP+ with similar mods. Again, it was a appendage waving competition on those forums, even worse so than in the ST community.

There are many people dropping stacks but don't spend the drop in the bucket to see a before plot point. If you are dumping 2-6k into a car, I sure as hell would want it done as scientifically as possible AKA on a controlled dyno, the same dyno both times. OP asked for only real dynos numbers and I provided mine.

OP, antarctica24 , said it best:



TL;DR - Single plot points are of no use to anyone. If there are 2+ plot points, consistency must be paramount. Bigger numbers are just that, big numbers. Boost isn't everything.

The only thing here that I disagree with is the notion that vdynos and dynos are to be compared between two different cars. I'm not saying that's what you're implying, but simply the notion I've ascertained from reading your post. I believe vdyno/dyno is a tool to measure your car against your own car. Regrettable if not done on a stock car, but not the end of the world as you can still see changes between tune revisions and parts changes. Anyway, ultimately the real test between two cars is on the track, and I think we unequivocally agree on that if that comparison is desired. Dyno sheets can't race.

 

[RAAMaudio]

I could not give a rats ass as to what my car made stock. I only drove it 5 miles putting around before tearing it apart and trying different turbos and used Vdyno the whole time as it is a great tool for such things. Though I had peak power numbers in mind to be on par with a couple of very fast cars on road race tracks a nice fairly wide and reliable power band is far more important to me so Vdyno numbers will serve me more than well enough compared to an actual dyno which I have no plans on ever putting the car on, there is no point in it for my needs.

There are many that use Vdyno appropriately and do not stretch the numbers and also may choose to not ever get on a real dyno.

I have had issues with real dyno tuners like a blown engine and a burned out clutch on the dyno that was absolutely operator error then I found out he blew two expensive BMW race engines the day before on the same dyno. Another time $1100 spent on a famous name company dyno tune only to blow 5 holes in the block the next day and could not figure out why but I found the error they made which they refused to do anything about.

In these days of super cheap aftermarket power, hugely overpowered cars straight from the manf, there are far to many with more power than brains or skills to use safely and cars with skinny tires with nuts power nobody can use correctly...I have kicked butt on hundreds of such cars and drivers over the years so I build the car to do all the things well I want it to do, which is most everything, then dial up the power until it is a well balanced package. This is the only one I will have a bit more power to weight ratio than really needed for most all things but I want to hang with or not fall to far behind a couple of what are considered super cars on road race tracks, might not happen, no worries, I can make it up in the turns as long as they are not out of site at the end of the straights

 

[Tune+]

Sucks that Russ or Alex can't chime in for the cyborgs Defense, clarify what they think it can make etc on pump 93? We can't have just one tuner , when it comes to cyborgs

I have tuned 6-7 cyborgs and tuning another one here shortly with a built block. So that will be a good test to see how far the Cyborg can be pushed. Unfortunately only a few that I have tuned hit an actual dyno, and the results were much better than stock but I have yet to get a Cyborg to the power levels of the X-37. Having a larger compressor wheel doesn't always result in better performance. In some cases if you don't have a matching turbine wheel to support the wheel speed needed for the compressor wheel to be in its efficiency range, you will actually hinder the output of the turbo.

I worked for a turbocharger manufacturer that did stock frame upgrades for 4 years, and we went through 10-15 difference wheel combinations to get a turbo just right for a certain vehicle. If you have a high speed turbine wheel, and a low speed compressor wheel you could possibly put the turbo in surgeline and it will actually slow the turbo down which will result in the turbo not holding boost even though the wheels are MUCH bigger than factory. You have to get the wheels paired correctly, if you don't you are sacrificing performance and reliability. A lot of bigger stock frame turbochargers blow out the thrust washer because the compressor wheel is producing more "pull" than the turbine wheel and it forces the turbine to load up against the thrust washer. You have a failure because you have too much heat generated on the thrust washer and the oil can't cool it fast enough so it welds itself together, or simply grenades. This is another reason why it is important to have the right wheels paired, you are looking for even pull from both wheels to keep load off the thrust washers.

 

[Rhinopolis]

I had my car corner balanced and weighed last month, and I live 15 miles slightly SW of Houston where the roads are nothing but flat. I've been datalogging since the car was 500 miles new, and I believe that my data entered in to V-Dyno is quality and accurate.

The car doesn't like heat (duh), and I datalogged this past Saturday at 7:30 am with 87F and 78% humidity. My best V-Dyno graph off that run was 210 hp 258 trq. This is E30. At the beginning of May with less heat and humidity, this same tune all else equal netted me close to 220 hp 272 trq.

I have since installed the X37 plus an MAP catted DP, and I will be datalogging and making V-dyno's in the increasing heat plus humidity of Houston summers. I'm looking forward to graphing out the performance of the X37 once the tuning is complete.

 

[Sourskittle]

X-37 Hybrid, ATP 2554, 2560, Cyborg Questions

I'm (edit) NOT going to get all up in this debate about tunes and V-dynos and all. I've just been through it all too many times. I appreciate the passion though.
I'll just say this, because no one has mentioned this...
I have a lot of options with the cyborg, and currently, one is for a cyborg with big inlet for $1000 shipped with a $300 core.
That's $1,000 for a turbo upgrade that is proven and durable.

Another side note to EVERYONE, and I think even Adam would agree with this... The common denominator with the guys making more power is meth injection. I think more guys should run it.

Just want to thank all people on the forum for letting me help you guys when you need it.

And both turbos are good options.

 

[alphanumeric]

I had my car corner balanced and weighed last month, and I live 15 miles slightly SW of Houston where the roads are nothing but flat. I've been datalogging since the car was 500 miles new, and I believe that my data entered in to V-Dyno is quality and accurate.

The car doesn't like heat (duh), and I datalogged this past Saturday at 7:30 am with 87F and 78% humidity. My best V-Dyno graph off that run was 210 hp 258 trq. This is E30. At the beginning of May with less heat and humidity, this same tune all else equal netted me close to 220 hp 272 trq.

I have since installed the X37 plus an MAP catted DP, and I will be datalogging and making V-dyno's in the increasing heat plus humidity of Houston summers. I'm looking forward to graphing out the performance of the X37 once the tuning is complete.

Let me know how this goes. I'll be doing some similar tests soon.

 

[GAbOS]

Another side note to EVERYONE, and I think even Adam would agree with this... The common denominator with the guys making more power is meth injection. I think more guys should run it.
And both turbos are good options.

Meh.. Most of the Forum want consistent power.
Injection of alternative fuel sources or adjusting intake temps is a minority.

Hybrids are low end alternatives. By Nature~!

Signed,
"Daily Driver"

 

[alphanumeric]

Meh.. Most of the Forum want consistent power.
Injection of alternative fuel sources or adjusting intake temps is a minority.

Hybrids are low end alternatives. By Nature~!

Signed,
"Daily Driver"

Yeah that's kind of how I feel. I see the huge number difference between E-30+meth and pump gas but I roadtrip a lot and my wife also drives the car. I can explain just put in premium but I'm too ignorant to explain how we need to mix our fuel etc. I just want consistent power on 93 or 95 (which is fairly easy to find here, even though you have to be aware German numbers aren't the same when it comes to fuel rating).