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X37 30% injectors stock fuel pump

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agangel
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Thread Starter #21
I hit 270 whp consistently on a few logs according to Vdyno, on 91. It’s definitely possible
I think he was just being conservative with his numbers as to not raise expectations to high. Probably using a average with boost weather and dead heat of summer numbers. But as far as what he is saying no matter the turbo x37, whoosh, s280 91 octane WHP numbers are approximately the same.
 


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#22
I’d love to hear @78kingcobra thoughts on this one. Adam is the only one I’ve seen say unequivocally “yes”
Sorry for the late response here as I'm not to active here on the forum. So, with the x37 there is really zero point to doing the 30% injectors without a hpfp. So, to kind of explain on larger like the gtx2860 where we can carry power all the way to redline at 7500rpm we tend to hit the limit on the stock injectors on pump 93 at around 25psi of boost. We can move the end of injection as far as possible to around 20 degrees btc and really widen the injection window but we will still be maxed out on injector around 6500 rpm as the window we can inject fuel Time wise shrinks the further we spin the engine out. These larger turbos can benefit to larger injectors due to this reason as well as there not making much boost before 4000rpm, so we aren't making the hpfp struggle as much at those lower rpms. Now on the flip side of the coin you have smaller turbos like the hybrids which make boost almost identical to a stock turbo. These play hell on the stock hpfp as we demand a lot of fuel where the pump physically cannot make pressure that's why we see pressure drop more so on these setups. The hybrids also aren't really pushing the airflow at high rpm so there is typically plenty of injection window left up there to max the turbo out being the hybrid is going to make peak hp around 6000rpm. There isn't a ton of reason to rev a hybrid to 7500 because of that. That's why you don't see tuners letting customers rev that high with them. There's no point it's done making power way before 7500 lol on a hybrid setup you would benefit more from a hpfp upgrade with stock injectors more than you would the 30% injectors alone. As far as them being safe yes if your tuner is competent then it doesn't matter the injectors alone will not cause any failures. I would personally recommend doing the Nostrum Hpfp first over the 30% injectors as you will gain much more throughout the powerband the turbo is capable of. I also want to mention I have been working with Nostrum on their pump data and we have fixed issues with the tuning data and completely tapped out the 30% injectors. The nostrum Hpfp Is capable of 400whp on Full e85 with the 30% injectors Granted this was done on my personal car but reaching nostrums rating of 375whp on e85 is not an issue. Nostrum is working on some larger then 30% injectors now as well after we maxed out the 30s so Stay tuned!! Dyno sheet attached!
 


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Dialcaliper

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#23
Sorry for the late response here as I'm not to active here on the forum. So, with the x37 there is really zero point to doing the 30% injectors without a hpfp. So, to kind of explain on larger like the gtx2860 where we can carry power all the way to redline at 7500rpm we tend to hit the limit on the stock injectors on pump 93 at around 25psi of boost. We can move the end of injection as far as possible to around 20 degrees btc and really widen the injection window but we will still be maxed out on injector around 6500 rpm as the window we can inject fuel Time wise shrinks the further we spin the engine out. These larger turbos can benefit to larger injectors due to this reason as well as there not making much boost before 4000rpm, so we aren't making the hpfp struggle as much at those lower rpms. Now on the flip side of the coin you have smaller turbos like the hybrids which make boost almost identical to a stock turbo. These play hell on the stock hpfp as we demand a lot of fuel where the pump physically cannot make pressure that's why we see pressure drop more so on these setups. The hybrids also aren't really pushing the airflow at high rpm so there is typically plenty of injection window left up there to max the turbo out being the hybrid is going to make peak hp around 6000rpm. There isn't a ton of reason to rev a hybrid to 7500 because of that. That's why you don't see tuners letting customers rev that high with them. There's no point it's done making power way before 7500 lol on a hybrid setup you would benefit more from a hpfp upgrade with stock injectors more than you would the 30% injectors alone. As far as them being safe yes if your tuner is competent then it doesn't matter the injectors alone will not cause any failures. I would personally recommend doing the Nostrum Hpfp first over the 30% injectors as you will gain much more throughout the powerband the turbo is capable of. I also want to mention I have been working with Nostrum on their pump data and we have fixed issues with the tuning data and completely tapped out the 30% injectors. The nostrum Hpfp Is capable of 400whp on Full e85 with the 30% injectors Granted this was done on my personal car but reaching nostrums rating of 375whp on e85 is not an issue. Nostrum is working on some larger then 30% injectors now as well after we maxed out the 30s so Stay tuned!! Dyno sheet attached!
This explanation makes a lot of sense - so if understand correctly, hybrids that make power down low where the fuel pump is running slow, but the injection window is long are pressure limited even on stock injectors, but bigger turbos that don’t make power till higher RPM are more limited by the flow volume of the injectors up high, where the HPFP is already running at higher speeds.
 


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#24
This explanation makes a lot of sense - so if understand correctly, hybrids that make power down low where the fuel pump is running slow, but the injection window is long are pressure limited even on stock injectors, but bigger turbos that don’t make power till higher RPM are more limited by the flow volume of the injectors up high, where the HPFP is already running at higher speeds.
Yes correct! basically at around 7000rpm our injection window is about 7 milliseconds at lower rpm our window is wider as the engine is physically moving the piston slower.
 


OP
agangel
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Thread Starter #26
Sorry for the late response here as I'm not to active here on the forum. So, with the x37 there is really zero point to doing the 30% injectors without a hpfp. So, to kind of explain on larger like the gtx2860 where we can carry power all the way to redline at 7500rpm we tend to hit the limit on the stock injectors on pump 93 at around 25psi of boost. We can move the end of injection as far as possible to around 20 degrees btc and really widen the injection window but we will still be maxed out on injector around 6500 rpm as the window we can inject fuel Time wise shrinks the further we spin the engine out. These larger turbos can benefit to larger injectors due to this reason as well as there not making much boost before 4000rpm, so we aren't making the hpfp struggle as much at those lower rpms. Now on the flip side of the coin you have smaller turbos like the hybrids which make boost almost identical to a stock turbo. These play hell on the stock hpfp as we demand a lot of fuel where the pump physically cannot make pressure that's why we see pressure drop more so on these setups. The hybrids also aren't really pushing the airflow at high rpm so there is typically plenty of injection window left up there to max the turbo out being the hybrid is going to make peak hp around 6000rpm. There isn't a ton of reason to rev a hybrid to 7500 because of that. That's why you don't see tuners letting customers rev that high with them. There's no point it's done making power way before 7500 lol on a hybrid setup you would benefit more from a hpfp upgrade with stock injectors more than you would the 30% injectors alone. As far as them being safe yes if your tuner is competent then it doesn't matter the injectors alone will not cause any failures. I would personally recommend doing the Nostrum Hpfp first over the 30% injectors as you will gain much more throughout the powerband the turbo is capable of. I also want to mention I have been working with Nostrum on their pump data and we have fixed issues with the tuning data and completely tapped out the 30% injectors. The nostrum Hpfp Is capable of 400whp on Full e85 with the 30% injectors Granted this was done on my personal car but reaching nostrums rating of 375whp on e85 is not an issue. Nostrum is working on some larger then 30% injectors now as well after we maxed out the 30s so Stay tuned!! Dyno sheet attached!
I understand there is zero point to do 30% injectors with stock pump on 91 or 93 octane. As far as I was informed ethanol blends are where I could make the extra power. Are you saying that I would make zero extra power with my x37 30% injectors stock pump and a e40 blend?
 


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#27
I understand there is zero point to do 30% injectors with stock pump on 91 or 93 octane. As far as I was informed ethanol blends are where I could make the extra power. Are you saying that I would make zero extra power with my x37 30% injectors stock pump and a e40 blend?
you could make alittle more power but your talking minimal gains. Its not that there are zero gains its that the cost vs gain is small its not quite as much as some make it out to be. The main limiting factor is still the hpfp witch is going to be tapped out within the powerband your turbo is capable of. Like i mentioned the injector issue is mostly saw from 6k-7500 rpm where the injection window is tight. Where that turbo is capable of actually making power your more hpfp limited then anything. Upgrading to a nostrum or xdi pump, running the rail pressure higher as well rescaling the injector flow rate table for that higher pressure is going to gain you more then just doing injectors. Basically the injectors flow more at higher pressure. From my testing a set of 30% injectors flow roughly 8% more for every 400psi rail pressure. This trend will also work on stock injectors. Ive yet to test with the stock injectors but I will be swapping the hpfp our other fiesta to the Wor Fab car witch has similar modifications to my Og car to see how much further the stock injectors can be pushed with just a hpfp upgrade and higher rail pressure 🤘
 


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agangel
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Thread Starter #28
So I'm not going to get injectors. Really it came down to living in California. I'm pretty sure I'm going to have to SMOG next year and I don't want to deal with more modifications. My plan so far is to unmarry the accessport and drive it around keep her out of boost, get sensors to readiness state. My question is has anyone run a stock tune with a hybrid turbo? I've read a couple of post saying they ran a x37 for like 100miles on stock tune and multiple posts of people buying a fiesta with a stock tune that had a hybrid already installed unknown to them. I'm ready to get flamed for this post so say your worst!!!
 


Dpro

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#29
So I'm not going to get injectors. Really it came down to living in California. I'm pretty sure I'm going to have to SMOG next year and I don't want to deal with more modifications. My plan so far is to unmarry the accessport and drive it around keep her out of boost, get sensors to readiness state. My question is has anyone run a stock tune with a hybrid turbo? I've read a couple of post saying they ran a x37 for like 100miles on stock tune and multiple posts of people buying a fiesta with a stock tune that had a hybrid already installed unknown to them. I'm ready to get flamed for this post so say your worst!!!
I don’t know anyone who ran a stock tune on an upgraded turbo it sounds like a bad idea. On the flip side my friend with S242 tuned passed smog . I am pretty sure I can do the same with my S280 though I am still a little over 2 years out before needing a smog. The trick is to fine someone who does not snoop around too much.
 


dhminer

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#30
So I'm not going to get injectors. Really it came down to living in California. I'm pretty sure I'm going to have to SMOG next year and I don't want to deal with more modifications. My plan so far is to unmarry the accessport and drive it around keep her out of boost, get sensors to readiness state. My question is has anyone run a stock tune with a hybrid turbo? I've read a couple of post saying they ran a x37 for like 100miles on stock tune and multiple posts of people buying a fiesta with a stock tune that had a hybrid already installed unknown to them. I'm ready to get flamed for this post so say your worst!!!
Zero evidence, but I’d think you’ll be ok if you stay totally out of boost.
 


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agangel
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Thread Starter #31
I don’t know anyone who ran a stock tune on an upgraded turbo it sounds like a bad idea. On the flip side my friend with S242 tuned passed smog . I am pretty sure I can do the same with my S280 though I am still a little over 2 years out before needing a smog. The trick is to fine someone who does not snoop around too much.
Your friend with the s242 did he live in California?
 


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agangel
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Thread Starter #32
Zero evidence, but I’d think you’ll be ok if you stay totally out of boost.
Right that's what I was thinking. I'll have to do the driving in the middle of the night(so I don't get the urge to pass someone) and really be careful but yeah if I stay out of boost why not?
 


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agangel
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Thread Starter #33
Also I was told by a well known fiesta tuner that an after market tune will change the ROM ID. I think that is how they flag tuned cars. I always felt the check sums was bs.
 


Dpro

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#34
Your friend with the s242 did he live in California?
yes

Also I was told by a well known fiesta tuner that an after market tune will change the ROM ID. I think that is how they flag tuned cars. I always felt the check sums was bs.
Hearsay is easy. Truth is not always hearsay. I have friends that also passed with Cobb stage 3 tunes( no longer available) that are not carb legal. Unless you are going to a referee who scrutinize the daylight out of everything if your IR Codes all read ready you will pass. The hard part is the visual and that is all up to the tech and how hard they want to inspect. some just glance over. I have a COBB CARB E.O.’d with sticker intake installed on my car specifically because it’s prominent and showing I am trying to be legal i.e. deterring the tech from looking harder . It’s also the highest flowing 3 inch throughout intake on the market,
Supposedly they can check for tunes but I have never heard of a RoM ID and from my knowledge of electronics you are not changing the Rom you are flashing it. . Now there is a flash counter…BUT everytime your battery is disconnected your Rom gets reflashed. There was talk about California accessing it as far as I have seen heard and know that is not happening, plus with the fact that your ECU does normally get reflashed on occasion it does not make a lot of sense . This is again something that was put out on the net not told by a smog tech Though if it’s a referee everything changes as they are there because the client has been cited and a lot of them are just by the book hard types.
 


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Dialcaliper

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#35
Also I was told by a well known fiesta tuner that an after market tune will change the ROM ID. I think that is how they flag tuned cars. I always felt the check sums was bs.
You may be a bit confused about what a checksum is and how it actually is used in the ECU. Checksums are a simple error correction method that at the most basic, is literally just a sum of all the hexadecimal character values in the file that gets loaded on the ECU, and it’s represented by a single “number” that also gets written to a field in the ECU tables. In that sense, it is kind of like an ID number.

The ECU uses this number as an error check to validate that none of the bits in the software are corrupted, both when writing a new flash to the ECU and also for self tests (often when first turned on). If a software or table bit gets flipped, or something is written wrong or corrupted, the checksum will add up to a different number. If it doesn’t add up, the ECU won’t attempt to load tables or start the car, essentially throwing an error.

The Smog Check machines are not scanning the whole ECU. They are simply checking the checksum value because it works like an ID. But it’s a bit more elegant than that, because it can’t simply be easily falsified or overwritten to a different value in a tune, as the ECU uses it for error checks.

Gotta hand it to them, as it’s a fairly simple way of checking a simple value that reflects the entire ECU flash tune pretty reliably.

Now, if someone like Cobb wanted to, they could probably rewrite the underlying Accessport software (not just the tune tables) to either use the value differently or relocate the actual checksum to a different area in the software, but it doesn’t seem like they’d be inclined to by policy these days, and it could be argued that the Accessport would then constitute an emissions defeat device, and nobody wants that.

From what I can tell, while the CARB checksum policy was announced several years ago, enforcement didn’t actually start until this January 2024, so it will be in effect going forward.

What you can probably safely do with a hybrid (arguably more safe than the stock tune but maybe not foolproof), is load a CARB legal Cobb stage 1 or 2 tune, and switch the tune to “Cobb Eco” mode, which will prevent the car from attempting to request more power than simple wastegate pressure, which will largely prevent higher boost levels where the hybrid behaves differently enough to not be “close enough” to match the tune.
 


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