Track Day Brake Mishap :( Brake duct ideas?

[justinsane]

After cooking ATE Super Blue on my Wilwood BBK yesterday, brake ducts are definitely in order. Pedal went to the ground and I suspect ESC/Brake Torque vectoring has something to do with it as it was mainly my driver's front corner that was cooked. Speaking of which do you guys track with traction control/ESC fully off on the track?

[video=youtube;Z5bFpRBwdmw]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z5bFpRBwdmw&feature=youtu.be[/video]

For the record my setup was ATE Super blue brake fluid, DTC-30 pads front, Ferodo DS2500 rear, SS lines all around.

What are the odds that the mechanic who initially bled these brakes did not torque down the bleeder enough so that at extreme heats the fluid started seeping/leaking? I generally DIY a lot of work but I get mechanics that I know to do stuff like brakes as I'm iffy with my understanding of hydraulics and don't want my pedal to go to the floor which is what happened here.

I will be upgrading to a different brake fluid perhaps Ferodo Super Formula or Motul RBF600 but I definitely want to look into better cooling. My plan is to remove the fog lights as they are pretty damn useless and also run a less aggressive front pad (something closer to the level of Ferodo DS2500) as the track I go to is not too hard on brakes. I've seen some on the forum who have cut a hole in the chin curtain under the bumper but I don't want to lose that ground clearance. I might get my local speed shop to fab me some backing plates with a spot for hoses too.

Has anyone figured out a way to disable torque vectoring without losing ABS etc.?

P.S. Anyone happen to know the torque spec for the little 1/4" bleeder screws on the Wilwood Dynapro 6?

 

[meFiSTo]

Hey. Maybe I'll see you at The Ridge some time.

I'm running the stock brake hardware with CarboTech XP8 pads front and back, Torque RT700 fluid, with StopTech brake lines. One day so far at Portland, which I suspect is easier on brakes that The Ridge. I'm targeting July 3 as my first event at The Ridge. The pads came home with lots of material left. Never boiled the fluids. I ran with the ESC off, but eTVC was of course operating. I have a quaife LSD, so there is some interplay going on there; plus I run on NT01s. But I had zero fade. The brakes did smoke a little during one a.m. session when when I came to a sudden red flag stop -- because I forgot to disable the ESC, but other than that, brakes ended the day happy. You might be pushing the braking and handling limits more than I do, which will challenge these little braking systems (Wilwood BBK, stock, whatever).

 

[Chuckable]

Super blue has a dry boiling point of 536F and a wet of 392F. The Motul is 593F dry and 420F wet. So, better fluid will help somewhat. Here's Wilwood's recommendations for brake ducting: http://www.wilwood.com/Pdf/DataSheets/ds254.pdf

My OEM brakes faded at an HPDE by about the 3rd session, but recovered. I'm installing the Wilwood kit this weekend with Carbotech pads (1521 street and XP8 track), but won't be out for another HPDE for a few months, so won't be able to tell you how the Carbotechs do until then.

Please let us know what you decide to do!

 

[Siestarider]

I believe ESC should be turned fully off when tracking, I found it very brake-abusive as I went faster. Plus it lends a false sense of confidence by correcting your mistakes until brakes cook.

No problems with stock brakes otherwise, Motul 600, now into destroying aftermarket pads while FoMoCo diddles around with OEM front pad supply. Still on street tires, I suspect going to R compounds will be the real test of stock brakes.

 

[justinsane]

Hey. Maybe I'll see you at The Ridge some time.

I'm running the stock brake hardware with CarboTech XP8 pads front and back, Torque RT700 fluid, with StopTech brake lines. One day so far at Portland, which I suspect is easier on brakes that The Ridge. I'm targeting July 3 as my first event at The Ridge. The pads came home with lots of material left. Never boiled the fluids. I ran with the ESC off, but eTVC was of course operating. I have a quaife LSD, so there is some interplay going on there; plus I run on NT01s. But I had zero fade. The brakes did smoke a little during one a.m. session when when I came to a sudden red flag stop -- because I forgot to disable the ESC, but other than that, brakes ended the day happy. You might be pushing the braking and handling limits more than I do, which will challenge these little braking systems (Wilwood BBK, stock, whatever).

I tracked last year fully stock and the brakes were very worn out and squeaked on the streets after but the fluid was fine. I'd much rather have pads overheat than fluid though. Given the stock tires there's only so hard you can push the car so it's pretty safe on full stock unless you're a bona fide race driver.
This is me last year fully stock [video=youtube;ZsZEoos4a2Y]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZsZEoos4a2Y[/video]
This year with the bilsteins and federal RSR's I shaved about 3 seconds off despite not having great braking confidence.

I believe ESC should be turned fully off when tracking, I found it very brake-abusive as I went faster. Plus it lends a false sense of confidence by correcting your mistakes until brakes cook.

No problems with stock brakes otherwise, Motul 600, now into destroying aftermarket pads while FoMoCo diddles around with OEM front pad supply. Still on street tires, I suspect going to R compounds will be the real test of stock brakes.

Does ESC fully off disable TVC?

 

[RAAMaudio]

Castrol SRF brake fluid, lasts longer so actually a good value though expensive.

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Fog light location brake ducts, Parts-Express has these port tubes that slide right into the holes if you removed the lights and 3" duct hose fits right over it so a very clean fit and good flow and cheap. There is a bit of a tight fit/bend to work around the bottom of the washer resv but I am sure it can be done. I was going this route until I found a different way listed below as wanted to run LED fog lights.

http://www.parts-express.com/speaker-cabinet-port-tube-2-3-4-id-x-4-3-4-l--260-409

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Splitter center port for brake ducts.

I modified the TR splitter by adding a full length undertray and it created a channel from under the bumper cover out towards the front of the tires that is nearly completely sealed. I am going to seal it and add ports which will not be seen to hook up the duct hose. This will bring in plenty of air, costs nothing more to do besides two ports attached, little added weight.

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Willwood brakes, next time you get rotors get the GT slotted ones, they have thicker walls and better vains and will deal with the heat more effectively and they are machined to tighter tolerances.

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If the mechanic did not tighten the bleed screw properly you would of had plenty of fluid to show the leak.

Having the issue at one caliper could be from improper bleeding but this sounds like that particular brake was being used by the TVC, etc....

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I have GT Rotors in 11.75 front and 11 rear, 15x9 wheels, 225 RA1 tires no ducts yet and use my brakes hard and had zero fad but wore the XP12 pads significantly up front. I forgot to turn off the nannies more than once and am sure it caused added wear on the pads. MMP, 210 WHP, 130 MPH on the front straight at least 80 times in two days, 70 degree weather(of course that helped)

 

[justinsane]

I'm now remembering that when I first installed these calipers we used Prestone DOT 4 from a local hardware store. Much lower wet boiling point than super blue and I only bled the rears before the track day. What came out of the caliper when we bled it in the pits was pretty blue but I suspect bad/old fluid is the culprit.
Going to try again with fresh fluid and less aggressive front pads + full ESC off and see how it goes.

I don't know if there are slotted rotors in the 12.19" x 0.81" thick size but that would be nice. I don't really want to go with the drilled SRP variant though

 

[Chuckable]

I don't know if there are slotted rotors in the 12.19" x 0.81" thick size but that would be nice. I don't really want to go with the drilled SRP variant though

Not sure if this is the correct bolt circle, but Wilwood definitely sells what you're looking for. http://www.wilwood.com/Rotors/RotorProd.aspx?itemno=160-12291

 

[RAAMaudio]

That is the rotor you want

9.6 lbs versus the 8.9lbs of the regular rotor, not a great deal more mass but it will help and more so the curved vein design and slots, these are dang good rotors for the cost.

 

[meFiSTo]

On your question about cooling ducts, I did this:

Porsche 993 air deflectors; worked great with my SVT Focus; hoping for positive outcomes with Fiesta ST as well.

 

[justinsane]

On your question aout cooling ducts, I did this:

Porsche 993 air deflectors; worked great with my SVT Focus; hoping for positive outcomes with Fiesta ST as well.

Do you have any pics of how it's mounted? Funny I have a 1995 993 C2 garage queen, maybe I will "borrow" these ahha

Does anyone know how important the front air dam is? I've been scraping it on the track, not a lot but enough to want to take it off.
At the Ridge there are some elevation changes which is where the air dam scrapes.

 

[meFiSTo]

Wow, that's a lot of suspension travel there. I have not bumped into that problem with my car (BC coilovers; dialed up to be about stock ride height and now set to 8 off stiff). We'll see how things go at The Ridge in a couple of weeks.

Here's a somehat blurry iPhone photo:

Snapped this one when I was trying to see where the fin ends and whether some trimming would be needed if I ad a Pierce 4-point brace.

Shop bascially welded a couple of brackets to the LCA with bolts that secure the fin.

 

[Chuckable]

Happen to have part numbers for those ducts?

 

[meFiSTo]

Happen to have part numbers for those ducts?

You talking to me?

Google is my friend:

993 Brake Air Deflector - Right Front (993-341-084-00) -- http://www.5150motorsport.com/993-brake-air-deflector-right-front-993-341-084-00/
993 Brake Air Deflector - Left Front (993-341-083-00) -- http://www.5150motorsport.com/993-brake-air-deflector-left-front-993-341-083-00/

I suspect you can find these a little cheaper with a google search of your own, but I found the right front on my initial search page, then poked to find the mate.

 

[Chuckable]

You talking to me?

Thank you

 

[kevinatfms]

You can cut the lower air dam and rivet in flat duct with hose extending over toward the caliper/rotor/hub. Anyone have any hub temp measurements after a full session? I would be quite interested to see how hot those hub bearings get after a 15 minute session on a fast track.

You could also keep the dust shields and weld a 2-3" tube onto them and direct the airflow a bit better. Guys in the Mustang community were doing this with the GT500 Brembo calipers and dust shields.

Here are some 3" pieces you can bolt onto the stock dust shields(have to drill a 3" hole) to duct fresh air into the caliper, rotor and hub.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/like/131383450223?lpid=82&chn=ps

Some flanges of all sizes(3" would be ideal):
http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/appages/ductflanges.php

Small NACA duct for the lower air dam(3" size):
https://www.pegasusautoracing.com/productselection.asp?Product=3623

Scraping it will be an issue unless you remove the fog lights or drill holes into the bumper to mount them. When i get to this level ill probably just cut the $20 plastic air dam and rivet it into that. Better to replace something cheap than something expensive.

 

[RAAMaudio]

The lower aid dam is an aerodynamic aid so I would keep it and it is a wear item so no worries if it scraps, C5 and C6 Vettes, possibly C7 had them as well and where rules dictated stock parts instead of splitters, etc, the racers used them so they must be worth keeping.

Just a little correction The duct listed above is a generic type duct, NACA ducts start out narrow and shallow and widen and deepen with a curing side shape.

If you can find the room you can mount one face down, small end forward, onto the bottom of the trim under the bumper and hood up the hose to it. I have seen this done on the rear on some very high end race cars. It adds a bit of downforce and cools the brakes at the same time. I would put a screen over it.

 

[Chuckable]

The lower aid dam is an aerodynamic aid so I would keep it and it is a wear item so no worries if it scraps, C5 and C6 Vettes, possibly C7 had them as well and where rules dictated stock parts instead of splitters, etc, the racers used them so they must be worth keeping.

Just a little correction The duct listed above is a generic type duct, NACA ducts start out narrow and shallow and widen and deepen with a curing side shape.

If you can find the room you can mount one face down, small end forward, onto the bottom of the trim under the bumper and hood up the hose to it. I have seen this done on the rear on some very high end race cars. It adds a bit of downforce and cools the brakes at the same time. I would put a screen over it.

Think that duct would work placed horizontally, next to the fog light trim piece? Of course the trim piece would have to be drilled, but the duct looks like the right shape to fit into the confines of the bumper cover. Any thoughts?

 

[RAAMaudio]

It may be a bit of a tight fit and the outlet and what it runs into could be a serious issue as well as they are designed for mostly flat surfaces but still would flow pretty well.

Perhaps the one in kevin...post would work out easier to use.

 

[RAAMaudio]

Search for Alstar brake duct hose, lined, much better price than most hose for this use.