The merits of stopping at a stage 2+ setup

[M-Sport fan]

^^^I'm guessing that aftermarket limited slip diffs are strictly verboten in H Street class, and probably even all the way up to (and beyond) the Street Prepared classes??

 

[commonplatypus]

^^^I'm guessing that aftermarket limited slip diffs are strictly verboten in H Street class, and probably even all the way up to (and beyond) the Street Prepared classes??

I think you end up in SMF with that. The ST cars aren't competitive beyond their street classes for the most part outside of small and local clubs. You'll have more luck there, but in CSP you'll just get dominated by miatas and SMF will have you running against dedicated race cars with ass loads of money dumped into them.

The only mods you can do in street class are tires, wheels that are one inch smaller or larger in diameter; but no change in width and only +5 or -5 offset from stock, one swaybar in the front or rear; not both, adjustable shocks like Koni Yellows, a cat back exhaust, an aftermarket filter, and any shift knob you want. Nothing else really. You can check the rule book online, but if it isn't listed, you should treat it as not allowed as a mod.

 

[M-Sport fan]

^^^So essentially, it is the same as the old SCCA '/Stock' classes, except that now you cannot run dedicated, fully R compound tires, like they allowed in the past?

(They also did not allow any REAR swaybars to be changed, ONLY the fronts, in the past.)

 

[re-rx7]

I'm increasingly of the opinion that heat management becomes a more immediately concern only when tuned after increasing timing and boost on an engine that already runs hot. On the stock tune it appears fine and exhibited no issues. There was no noticeable change in pace or power delivery during my sessions on the track. It was quite literally fine. A more immediate concern would be braking performance. While the stock brakes performed admirably, they began to get spongey towards the tail end of each 20-minute session and needed roughly thirty minutes to cool off before going out again. This was expected and probably assisted by the better ATE fluid I had put into the system. My experience is that I had no glaring issues.

I'm admittedly enjoying my tune free life after de-modding and detuning. No longer bound by concerns for performance metrics and logging, less concern for gas quality, and I don't have to constantly monitor anything anymore. Worst that happens is limp mode if it does start developing issues, but so far I haven't experienced any. It's been a very liberating experience. I'm in the market for something else anyways, so this is fine.

I'm not casting doubt on your input as you've been a huge source of information for me in the past when researching on my own. This is just where I'm at with the car now. There isn't much left for me to get out of it and the investment doesn't have a big enough return for me with regards to modding it. I'm just going to stick with brakes, tires, and fluids until I get rid of it.



There is data out there from sources such as D Sport magazine that suggests that a stock Fiesta is roughly only just under two seconds slower than a "stage 3" Fiesta and it is one of the observations that spurred me into my revision to stock in addition to my need to comply with autocross classing regulations. Most of that time gained was actually from shedding 160lbs of weight from the car, however. Tracking the car is more often a driver's game and the wheel spin coming out of tight corners on autocross was enough of an inhibition that it actually showed that a tuned version of the car was actually slower than stock due to the skinny wheel base and tire limitations on the car not being able to apply the power properly without excessive throttle modulation. Traction is one of the biggest limitations this car faces; not power as much.

If all you care about is highway pulls and street light racing, tuned works fine. If competition driving is your game, that might be another story entirely.

We must be feeling different things. I frequent a local
Mtn pass and can say without a doubt power loss was abundant. I also frequent a local track. Track times are dependent on layout. 2sec is an eternity.

 

[BronxBomber]

I'm increasingly of the opinion that heat management becomes a more immediately concern only when tuned after increasing timing and boost on an engine that already runs hot. On the stock tune it appears fine and exhibited no issues. There was no noticeable change in pace or power delivery during my sessions on the track. It was quite literally fine. A more immediate concern would be braking performance. While the stock brakes performed admirably, they began to get spongey towards the tail end of each 20-minute session and needed roughly thirty minutes to cool off before going out again. This was expected and probably assisted by the better ATE fluid I had put into the system. My experience is that I had no glaring issues.

I'm admittedly enjoying my tune free life after de-modding and detuning. No longer bound by concerns for performance metrics and logging, less concern for gas quality, and I don't have to constantly monitor anything anymore. Worst that happens is limp mode if it does start developing issues, but so far I haven't experienced any. It's been a very liberating experience. I'm in the market for something else anyways, so this is fine.

I'm not casting doubt on your input as you've been a huge source of information for me in the past when researching on my own. This is just where I'm at with the car now. There isn't much left for me to get out of it and the investment doesn't have a big enough return for me with regards to modding it. I'm just going to stick with brakes, tires, and fluids until I get rid of it.



There is data out there from sources such as D Sport magazine that suggests that a stock Fiesta is roughly only just under two seconds slower than a "stage 3" Fiesta and it is one of the observations that spurred me into my revision to stock in addition to my need to comply with autocross classing regulations. Most of that time gained was actually from shedding 160lbs of weight from the car, however. Tracking the car is more often a driver's game and the wheel spin coming out of tight corners on autocross was enough of an inhibition that it actually showed that a tuned version of the car was actually slower than stock due to the skinny wheel base and tire limitations on the car not being able to apply the power properly without excessive throttle modulation. Traction is one of the biggest limitations this car faces; not power as much.

If all you care about is highway pulls and street light racing, tuned works fine. If competition driving is your game, that might be another story entirely.

I'm not an autocross guy, but do dabble in HPDE and canyon carving and the extra power always makes me want to drive my car even if it's a quick blast to the grocery store. The car is lots of fun stock, but waaaay better in my opinion when it's modded correctly. Now "correctly" is all a matter of taste, but it should not detract from the cars inherent strengths.

 

[commonplatypus]

We must be feeling different things. I frequent a local
Mtn pass and can say without a doubt power loss was abundant. I also frequent a local track. Track times are dependent on layout. 2sec is an eternity.

I think I am more likely to pick up more time on better R compound, better braking (EBC yellowstuff en route), and seat time than I am through increasing power. Engine performance was pretty consistent with no obvious changes in power delivery. The only place I could see it being helpful is in the 1/3 mile straight section on the back of the course, but I feel like the torque dump would hurt me coming out of corners or trying to get through them to begin with. I was already holding my own at stock against other cars fairly well, so I've got that going for me, which is nice. /BillMurray.

How do you do on engine temps? Mine seemed fine with no complaints.

^^^So essentially, it is the same as the old SCCA '/Stock' classes, except that now you cannot run dedicated, fully R compound tires, like they allowed in the past?

(They also did not allow any REAR swaybars to be changed, ONLY the fronts, in the past.)

Yeah, you've got the gist there. You can change either sway bar now, but not both. Just one or the other and street tires must be at least 200TW and no less.

 

[Silo]

The harsh summers where I live make an upgraded intercooler a necessity insofar as maintaining power. Before buying an Airtec IC I was seeing charge temperatures consistently in the 140+F range while moving. Moving away from a stoplight during the day made the car outright anemic in power output and a single 3rd gear pull could push charge temperatures into the 160+F range. I'd say that for people living in hot climates with no inclination towards HPDEs, an intercooler is the best modification for consistent power delivery. I'd also argue in favor of the stock intake being the best intake on the market for consistent power with low temperatures. The combination of the stock intake and Airtec IC keep my charge air and intake air temperatures almost equal.

 

[re-rx7]

I think I am more likely to pick up more time on better R compound, better braking (EBC yellowstuff en route), and seat time than I am through increasing power. Engine performance was pretty consistent with no obvious changes in power delivery. The only place I could see it being helpful is in the 1/3 mile straight section on the back of the course, but I feel like the torque dump would hurt me coming out of corners or trying to get through them to begin with. I was already holding my own at stock against other cars fairly well, so I've got that going for me, which is nice.

You aren't feeling a difference in power because the car is already producing less than it could from heat.

 

[commonplatypus]

You aren't feeling a difference in power because the car is already producing less than it could from heat.

Do you have back-to-back data logs to prove that on the same track in similar conditions with and without an upgraded intercooler for comparison purposes? We can feed them into vDyno from there and see what comes of it.

or maybe you've got lap times around the track from a before and after scenario? Anecdotal evidence without data doesn't really do much for me and doesn't solve my class restriction issues for autocross, either.

 

[M-Sport fan]

Do you have back-to-back data logs to prove that on the same track in similar conditions with and without an upgraded intercooler for comparison purposes? We can feed them into vDyno from there and see what comes of it.

or maybe you've got lap times around the track from a before and after scenario? Anecdotal evidence without data doesn't really do much for me and doesn't solve my class restriction issues for autocross, either.

They don't forbid you from spraying down the stock IC with cold water/hitting with blasts of CO2, or NOX in between runs in the street classes do they?

(Of course ANY 'on board' type of IC sprayer would be forbidden.)

 

[commonplatypus]

They don't forbid you from spraying down the stock IC with cold water/hitting with blasts of CO2, or NOX in between runs in the street classes do they?

(Of course ANY 'on board' type of IC sprayer would be forbidden.)

Lots of people (Myself included) use an insecticide sprayer full of water to wet down the tires and intercooler. The intercooler grill is easily removable for better access when spraying, too. Just pops right off and right back on again.

No auxiliary cooling systems like what you described allowed. Not sure what the rules would be on NOX/C02, but I would hazard a guess that it might get some weird looks.

 

[Joker328]

Not really sure what point you are trying to make in the past couple pages of this thread.

Is it that the stock intercooler is sufficient for a completely stock car with the stock tune? I don't think most would argue that. The benefit of the intercooler is allowing you to run more aggressive boost/timing without heat soak. You don't need dyno charts to show you that it makes it a difference (though they do). The laws of thermodynamics say it does.

Or is it that modding/tuning for more power are not as important to you as stickier tires, or improved suspension, brakes, or whatever else? To that I would say a) to each his own and b) why not both? Some people want to feel it more in the butt dyno, some want to feel it carving canyons, and some want both. Just mod/tune your car for what you want.

 

[OffTheWall503]

It mostly sounds like an autocross class issue here. I don't think anyone is necessarily denying the benefits of an intercooler, but rather the performance margins you gain while raising up in classes?