The merits of stopping at a stage 2+ setup

[Alex@Stratified]

I'm lost, so your saying go with Strat for stage 1 but look else where once you mod past that? R u making a recommendation On your findings or their tune or? Like what were you expecting from a stage 2 tune that u didn't get from stratified

We do have custom tuning that goes beyond our flash tune as well. This is usually best suited for big turbo builds, more "exotic" setups (getting the most from WMI for example) or for someone that wants to eek the last bit of performance from their setup.

 

[dyn085]

We do have custom tuning that goes beyond our flash tune as well. This is usually best suited for big turbo builds, more "exotic" setups (getting the most from WMI for example) or for someone that wants to eek the last bit of performance from their setup.

Do you tune the FiST to 27+ psi of boost?

 

[WeTheNorth]

So then the conclusion being the flash tune for stage 2 parts is not the best route? Go with a more custom tune? Like Jeff is with Tune+ or your custom tune? Because Jeff stated that he did not feel much after the flash tune for stage 2 parts. Just trying to get an understanding of which route to take to not waste money and time.

 

[twolf]

[MENTION=4300]Alex@Stratified[/MENTION]

Pumaspeed recently released a "map" which dumps a ton of fuel on decel, giving a lot of pops/crackles.

How did they do this? I read somewhere that the ECU doesn't allow this kind of behavior.

 

[Hijinx]

Wrote an article a little while back regarding intakes and how they affect performance. Keep in mind that the pressure drop across the intake will be affected by the airflow coming through the tubing. On a smaller turbo where not as much airflow is coming through you will see less pressure drop across the intake.

http://stratifiedauto.com/blog/a-technical-discussion-of-intakes-and-turbocharging/

The small turbo on the Fiesta favours low to mid RPM torque. Flow modifications allow you to flatten the torque curve somewhat and high octane fuel helps the top end as well via timing. Also keep in mind that the more flow modifications, the faster you need to spin the turbo to achieve the same boost pressure until you reach the choke point or can't maintain a needed pressure ratio in the turbine. So you may actually see that a fully bolted car, although faster than stock car, will see less boost especially up top.

This is why the 2JR actually makes a difference; less bends, shorter track. Our compressor inlet is only a little bigger than a quarter so slapping a 3" intake that has the same amount of bends and length won't do much.

 

[dyn085]

This is why the 2JR actually makes a difference; less bends, shorter track. Our compressor inlet is only a little bigger than a quarter so slapping a 3" intake that has the same amount of bends and length won't do much.

Exactly. Just like I've been saying, the theory is definitely there to support it-it just doesn't pan out in practice. That's not a fault of the theory; it's the fault of the baby turbo.

 

[dyn085]

[MENTION=4300]Alex@Stratified[/MENTION]

Pumaspeed recently released a "map" which dumps a ton of fuel on decel, giving a lot of pops/crackles.

How did they do this? I read somewhere that the ECU doesn't allow this kind of behavior.

DFSO settings.

 

[twolf]

DFSO settings.

Neat. So what would be the negatives of this? Slightly worse fuel economy?

 

[dyn085]

Neat. So what would be the negatives of this? Slightly worse fuel economy?

That, and your turbo doesn't exactly like having unburned fuel spat at it when it's hot. Definitely sounds cool though, I set off an afterfire at work that made a couple of people duck.

 

[twolf]

It's nice when it happens, I usually find when I downshift after cruising on the highway for a bit it'll shoot a nice little flame/bang.

 

[WeTheNorth]

That, and your turbo doesn't exactly like having unburned fuel spat at it when it's hot. Definitely sounds cool though, I set off an afterfire at work that made a couple of people duck.

It's nice when it happens, I usually find when I downshift after cruising on the highway for a bit it'll shoot a nice little flame/bang.

Won't having a Catless dp do the same for pops and burbles?

 

[twolf]

I have a catless DP and MBRP exhaust.

I do get pops and burbles, but not like some other people on the forum. Couldn't say why. Perhaps my tuner has the decel fuel cut set up differently, or my tune runs more lean than others = less unburnt fuel making it to the exhaust.. /shrug

 

[dyn085]

I have a catless DP and MBRP exhaust.

I do get pops and burbles, but not like some other people on the forum. Couldn't say why. Perhaps my tuner has the decel fuel cut set up differently, or my tune runs more lean than others = less unburnt fuel making it to the exhaust.. /shrug

I'm running 1.06 lambda and leaner from .2 to .7 load; I'm pretty sure you're not leaner than I. I doubt anyone is, actually. I'm just extra rich at WOT due to a new tune I'm messing around with. You can log your AFR Actual to see where you stand. Most likely it's just in your DFSO settings, which are probably unchanged from the OTS maps which, iirc, are unchanged from OEM. I could be wrong on the last part, I haven't really looked at that folder in a while.

Don't be surprised if some of the others on the forum either have new exhausts or are possibly exaggerating. I get virtually no pops unless I have come straight out of WOT and shifted up without further accelerator input.

 

[twolf]

I'm running 1.06 lambda and leaner from .2 to .7 load; I'm pretty sure you're not leaner than I. I doubt anyone is, actually. I'm just extra rich at WOT due to a new tune I'm messing around with. You can log your AFR Actual to see where you stand. Most likely it's just in your DFSO settings, which are probably unchanged from the OTS maps which, iirc, are unchanged from OEM. I could be wrong on the last part, I haven't really looked at that folder in a while.

Don't be surprised if some of the others on the forum either have new exhausts or are possibly exaggerating. I get virtually no pops unless I have come straight out of WOT and shifted up without further accelerator input.

What do you mean by new exhausts?

People exaggerating would make sense... though I've seen videos of people revving and they've had more pops than me. Boohoo.

 

[WeTheNorth]

I have a catless DP and MBRP exhaust.

I do get pops and burbles, but not like some other people on the forum. Couldn't say why. Perhaps my tuner has the decel fuel cut set up differently, or my tune runs more lean than others = less unburnt fuel making it to the exhaust.. /shrug

Don't be surprised if some of the others on the forum either have new exhausts or are possibly exaggerating. I get virtually no pops unless I have come straight out of WOT and shifted up without further accelerator input.

Oh man, I was hoping for that when I got my Catless dp on

 

[jeff]

I'm lost, so your saying go with Strat for stage 1 but look else where once you mod past that? R u making a recommendation On your findings or their tune or? Like what were you expecting from a stage 2 tune that u didn't get from stratified

The stage 1 Strat flash tune for $50 is fantastic. If you were to stay at stage one and didn't want to pay for a custom tune, I think it's the best off the shelf tune. For $150 or more you can get a custom tune.

In my case, "stage 2" (FMIC) was my goal, and once there hardware-wise I experimented with different tunes. A custom tune was something I was planning on doing, it was only a matter of time. Since the Strat stage 1 tune was so much better than the Cobb, I wanted to see how their stage 2 compared, it was only a $25 charge to "upgrade". Call it curiosity....but obviously I quickly went with a custom tune. I am sure there are many great options, and Stratified does custom e-tunes as well. The reason I picked Tune+ is because I called him several months ago when I had a few questions and he answered the phone and talked to me for awhile. Great customer service, earned my business.

On that note, I'm on my 3rd revision of my Tune+ tune and am quite happy. Once it's all said and done I'll share more. May be a few weeks as I'm about to go out of town.

 

[dyn085]

What do you mean by new exhausts?

People exaggerating would make sense... though I've seen videos of people revving and they've had more pops than me. Boohoo.

When I first installed my exhaust and loaded the stage 3 tune my car popped and burbled all the time. Now, not so much-even with the same tune loaded. It's not a huge deal to me and I'm not willing to sacrifice fuel mileage or turbo longevity for it, even though losses in both would probably be relatively miniscule in the broader sense.

 

[Alex@Stratified]

Do you tune the FiST to 27+ psi of boost?

There are many variables that go into the tune. These include what the customer is looking for and how the car is used. It includes experience, and it includes data from the vehicle. So this is a very open ended question. It is more about finding the correct solution for the customer. I maximum peak torque (for a short region of the RPM band) is the requirement and fueling and octane are there so support it, high boost can be the solution.

So then the conclusion being the flash tune for stage 2 parts is not the best route? Go with a more custom tune? Like Jeff is with Tune+ or your custom tune? Because Jeff stated that he did not feel much after the flash tune for stage 2 parts. Just trying to get an understanding of which route to take to not waste money and time.

We have discussed this previously as I have analysed a number of your datalogs. Your limit is fuel octane. Without better octane (WMI or E85) there is little that can be done to significantly increase performance via parts or tune. I recommend WMI in your case.

[MENTION=4300]Alex@Stratified[/MENTION]

Pumaspeed recently released a "map" which dumps a ton of fuel on decel, giving a lot of pops/crackles.

How did they do this? I read somewhere that the ECU doesn't allow this kind of behavior.

There are quite a few tables that affect DFCO and how the engine manages torque off throttle. It is not a single on-off switch You have to be careful here because while you can add some sound by enabling more over-run, you can also ruin shift quality and engine braking. We have worked with adding a bit more sound on decel and will be adding it as an option to our tunes in the near future. However, enabling that over-run to be continuous like you see in the video from my experience in developing this will detract too from the driving experience, shift and engine braking qualities. It is all about the right balance .

 

[commonplatypus]

A simple fact of life is that there just isn't much that goes on after "Stage 1" tuning.

You add an intercooler for more consistent performance by reducing charge air temperatures. I consider this a reliability and quality of life modification. Is there a perfomance bump? Sure. Is it drastic? No. Not in my experience. It doesn't translate directly into raw peak power the way that first tune does and even with tuning it just doesn't do that much. I feel like intercoolers (What is what often referred to as "Stage 2") People spend all this money on these little mods here and there with frankly very diminishing returns and the discussion about whether they do anything or who does it best never seems to end. Intakes, big mouth snorkels, downpipes, manifold spacers, etc all in the name of making it to a new "stage" (Marketing term), but the reality with that is that you're going to be chasing a high that you got going to stage one that just isn't there until you finally realize you need a better turbo to feel that again. Maxing out the stock turbo isn't hard and you can do it very quickly for very little money. It isn't that all these mods I mentioned do nothing, it's just that they don't do enough for the amount of money they cost and I'd argue most people would be better off taking that money and buying better tires instead because the re050a simply don't cut it for this car past stock.

Nobody gives the oem parts enough credit. The car is VERY well setup from the factory. You want the best intake? It came with the car. Best downpipe for the money? It came with the car. Charge pipes? Came with the car. I would argue the only hard part that NEEDS to be replaced is the intercooler because of it's inability to keep up with the car after tuning.

If you're curious what custom tuning on good fuel can do with Stratified, allow me to shed a little light on that, because that's me right now. This is on 93 octane fuel only. No ethanol. On top of that I'm very close to MBT I'm told. There's just not a lot left to gain by adding timing. I might get 20 whp from corn juice, but it's such a hassle to do for me since I drive the car less nowadays and just take the train. Knowing this, I find it hard to believe you're going to be doing anything more than splitting hairs trying to get more power from this car without changing the turbo somehow. Despite being this close to MBT the car isn't strung out and doesn't feel like that either to me. It feels very... normal?

Here's what my tune was doing on winter tires at 185/60/R15 (23.7" in diameter on 15" steel wheels) with the OEM intercooler. Looks pretty decent to me. It's almost punching "Stage 3" numbers and only had a green filter and Cobb RMM on it.

Now let's look at a more recent run. This is with an upgraded intercooler, but now I am runningn Michelin Pilot Super Sport tires (Fantastic, by the way) in 205/45/17 in size with a diameter of 24.3" on the OEM wheels. I lost a good chunk of peak power here because I increased unsprung weight and moved that weight out further from the hub, but the numbers are still impressive enough in spite of that.

The car is incredibly smooth and drivable. It's not a handful like my Mountune calibration was and doesn't just dump a ton of torque on me. It's incredibly refined and that's the difference. That's the trade you make with the Stratified tuning. You give up a bit of power (Not much honestly) in exchange for a car that feels like it just rolled out of Ford with more power under the hood. What's the point of power you can't use effectively? I can use all of this power all of the time and most of my performance improvements are going to come from driver mods, not car mods from here; big turbo aside.

This is not a tuner vs tuner type post. Everybody should go with who they like and if they have a good experience, that's the end of that story. You're going to see more difference from environmental variables than you will from tuner variables at any point aside from feature inclusions like the drivability calibrations that Stratified dials in. This is my experience with Strat after I saw some posts in here indicating they aren't very good after their "flash" tune, which just isn't true by any means.

 

[dyn085]

Well said.