ST 0-60 with turbo upgrade discussion

[jeff]

This came up earlier today on the Veloster thread and I was having the same discussion on YouTube with some keyboard warriors, so I thought it might be interesting to have a focused discussion on this.

First let me say that I don't think 0-60 is the best measure of speed/desirability for a car. Sometime back when dinosaurs ruled the earth someone somewhere popularized the 0-60 measurement and it's held firm. It does help but it doesn't tell the whole story. In my opinion the "street start" 5-60 is a better measure, and another great measurement of car's real-world performance is a 20-80 run. That's when we'll be using the power most. Streetlight racing is illegal anyway. And to get a good 0-60 measurement you need a good driver and a perfect launch, not to mention a clutch dump which is not good for the car.

Both 0-60 and 1/4 mile measurements are used for performance testing but another variable, if you get the car to a track, is that often the road surface is prepared, the cars have weight reduction, and they are on slicks or special tires. I say that to say, again, that 0-60 and 1/4 measurements (especially on a track) are not realistic comparisons for real-world performance.

The problem is that folks see a modded ST do 0-60 in 4.03 seconds and a 1/4 mile in 12.06 as in the video below and think that if they spend a few thousand bucks they can do the same. That of course is not true for the reasons above. But people think it.

Now:

Stock ST will do 0-60 in around 6.8 seconds (car magazines).
Modded ST on stock turbo will do around 6.1 seconds (that's the lowest I've seen folks post here using the Cobb AP measurement).
ST with turbo upgrade ?????

As we see in the video below, and it's not the best comparison due to track conditions/abuse of car/tires/perfect driver, but Laird Performance sent a Puma X47R Fiesta to 60 in 4.03 seconds and 1/4 miled in 12.06 sec. Just a few thousand bucks in mods. Get a good trap speed and you're on your way to a 12-second 1/4 mile.

Look at 1:21 and 1:28.

[video=youtube;bY-28sq8O5k]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bY-28sq8O5k[/video]

My assumption is that the Laird car has all the right stuff on it - good tires, good driver, race gas mix, maybe aux fuel. The 4.03 seconds to 60 is probably with the car at 320ish HP which is about the max for the X47R in any situation, if it has ALL the upgrades and best fuel (catless DP, aux fuel, slicks, etc.).

Still in the real word that 4.03 is deceiving. I'd say in the real world a 300whp Fiesta like mine could do 0-60 in around 5 seconds flat on the street, but again that's assuming the perfect driver is beating the clutch/transmission to get that sort of time. I can get to 60 in 2nd gear somewhere in the 5s myself, but I have no desire to beat the car in order to see just how low I can get it.

That said, the 0-60 is confusing and as stated above not the best measure of how fast/good a car is. That's why they started the whole 5-60 "street start" measurement, so that a clutch dump isn't necessary. But honestly a better measurement IMHO for real world driving is the 10-20mph "I'm in 2nd gear and I hammer it" test. Yesterday I pulled on a newer (and loud/modded) Mustang GT from about 20mph onward. Same with an STi. So the car is fast. I think the rolling start is the way to get the feel. If an STi or Mustang GT can do 0-60 in under 5 seconds and my car at 304whp can pull on them in 2nd/3rd gear, that tells me I'm pretty quick no matter what my "official" 0-60 time might be.



Would love to hear other thoughts on this. What would be totally epic is if anyone with a turbo swap has some verifiable numbers of 0-60 times in street conditions (not track, on slicks, etc.), maybe using the Cobb AP or another measurement. I've never done this nor do I plan to because I don't beat on my car in that way. But if you have, enlighten us!!!

 

[Truth in Ruin]

Good points. I think 0-60 is a measurement better suited for RWD, and AWD. With FWD, it’s all driver. Not to mention a lot of times FWD drive cars look slower than RWD and AWD when it comes to 0-60, but in reality- they’re actually faster than RWD & AWD when they’re not moving from a dead stop.

 

[TyphoonFiST]

One thing I have NEVER done is a burnout with my FiST.....I see no reason to Shock my drivetrain hardcore. Roll racing I think Is a good gauge of how quick a car really is. The look on peoples faces when the FiST gets up and moves away is priceless. I love the FiST for this reason alone.... plus not many people know what they are....they just think they are Fiestas...nothing special. I'm constantly asked when are you going to Track/Drag it...I'm like NEVER. ...if I wanted a Drag car id buy a drag car.

 

[Quickone]

Very good discussion. I use the 0-60 times posted in the magazines and tests for comparison to other cars only. To me it's a determination if the car can keep up with or get ahead of traffic if you need to- and edge out that minivan or SUV next to you. For the track drag racing they go by elapsed time- 1/8 or 1/4 mile. They have stats on the print out for how long it takes to go 50', 100', etc. You could have a higher trap speed than an opponent at the finish mark but slower elapsed time and will be the loser. I know a guy who drag races a very expensive high end Mercedes in the 1/8 mile- the times are incredible- and he usually loses to someone faster too, so hard to believe.

0-60 in 6.7-6.9 is average- some minivans and SUV's do this or are faster. Getting that down to say 5.1-5.5 or so to me is incredible in the FIST. And if it can be done with easy mods and tune, wow. I still don't believe it- wish I could try someone else's FIST this fast, compare it to mine before I invest 2-3K. To get it lower than that is a real achievement and seems to me would not be possible unless there is internal engine work, bigger turbo and big investment.

 

[Quickone]

One thing I have NEVER done is a burnout with my FiST.....I see no reason to Shock my drivetrain hardcore. Roll racing I think Is a good gauge of how quick a car really is. The look on peoples faces when the FiST gets up and moves away is priceless. I love the FiST for this reason alone.... plus not many people know what they are....they just think they are Fiestas...nothing special. I'm constantly asked when are you going to Track/Drag it...I'm like NEVER. ...if I wanted a Drag car id buy a drag car.

This is true when I get on my FIST too- and even more often when I start it up with the MBRP exhaust. I see people look all around in the parking lot to see which car is making that sound- and never once think it's a Fiesta.

My MazdaSpeed 3 was such a sleeper too- same exact thing. That's what I loved most about that car- looks like a family sedan but it's not.

 

[HardBoiledEgg]

But it is?

 

[jeff]

One thing I have NEVER done is a burnout with my FiST.....I see no reason to Shock my drivetrain hardcore. Roll racing I think Is a good gauge of how quick a car really is. The look on peoples faces when the FiST gets up and moves away is priceless. I love the FiST for this reason alone.... plus not many people know what they are....they just think they are Fiestas...nothing special. I'm constantly asked when are you going to Track/Drag it...I'm like NEVER. ...if I wanted a Drag car id buy a drag car.

Too true!!!!!!!!!!!!

One day we might disagree on something, and that day I will be sad.

Very good discussion. I use the 0-60 times posted in the magazines and tests for comparison to other cars only. To me it's a determination if the car can keep up with or get ahead of traffic if you need to- and edge out that minivan or SUV next to you. For the track drag racing they go by elapsed time- 1/8 or 1/4 mile. They have stats on the print out for how long it takes to go 50', 100', etc. You could have a higher trap speed than an opponent at the finish mark but slower elapsed time and will be the loser. I know a guy who drag races a very expensive high end Mercedes in the 1/8 mile- the times are incredible- and he usually loses to someone faster too, so hard to believe.

0-60 in 6.7-6.9 is average- some minivans and SUV's do this or are faster. Getting that down to say 5.1-5.5 or so to me is incredible in the FIST. And if it can be done with easy mods and tune, wow. I still don't believe it- wish I could try someone else's FIST this fast, compare it to mine before I invest 2-3K. To get it lower than that is a real achievement and seems to me would not be possible unless there is internal engine work, bigger turbo and big investment.

Good stuff here too...my stock Forester '05 XT did 0-60 in 5.2 and looked like a station wagon. A V6 Accord from a few years ago or a newer one with the turbo 4 will do it in the mid 5s. So truly a 5.5ish second time really isn't that fast anymore. I mean it is fast, but when an Accord will do the same it's not in the elite group of 'really fast' cars that will do it in the 3s and 4s, cars like an Audi S4 or Mustang GT and such. Interesting that back in the 80s a Corvette did it in 6 seconds and that was mind-blowing; exotics of that day did it in the 5s and that seemed incredulous. These days, a family sedan does what a supercar used to do. Of course now the supercars do it in the 2s.....will the Accord be running from 0 to 60 in the 2s in 20 years?

All that aside, YES 5.1-5.5 can be done with easy mods and a tune, for about $3000-$4000 bucks to be more realistic. It is quite an achievement. Beyond the 300ish whp number yes you are correct it's going to take a good bit more money and then the reliability becomes a concern - part A requires part B which requires part C, where do you stop? I know a few guys who have put >$20,000 into their Fiesta. As I've said before, and this is off topic, but I think that 300ish is the perfect balance...You need under $4000 to get there (doing the basics only) and the car is still manageable and reliability isn't compromised as long as you do things right. If there's any weak link in the FiST it's straight line acceleration, and 300whp fixes that issue. Of course this platform isn't about straight line acceleration, but it is a nice upgrade.

On the topic of true cost of a turbo upgrade I offer this for your viewing pleasure:

[video=youtube;I3NtaeQZBRo]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I3NtaeQZBRo&t=19s[/video]

 

[Quickone]

Too true!!!!!!!!!!!!

One day we might disagree on something, and that day I will be sad.



Good stuff here too...my stock Forester '05 XT did 0-60 in 5.2 and looked like a station wagon. A V6 Accord from a few years ago or a newer one with the turbo 4 will do it in the mid 5s. So truly a 5.5ish second time really isn't that fast anymore. I mean it is fast, but when an Accord will do the same it's not in the elite group of 'really fast' cars that will do it in the 3s and 4s, cars like an Audi S4 or Mustang GT and such. Interesting that back in the 80s a Corvette did it in 6 seconds and that was mind-blowing; exotics of that day did it in the 5s and that seemed incredulous. These days, a family sedan does what a supercar used to do. Of course now the supercars do it in the 2s.....will the Accord be running from 0 to 60 in the 2s in 20 years?

All that aside, YES 5.1-5.5 can be done with easy mods and a tune, for about $3000-$4000 bucks to be more realistic. It is quite an achievement. Beyond the 300ish whp number yes you are correct it's going to take a good bit more money and then the reliability becomes a concern - part A requires part B which requires part C, where do you stop? I know a few guys who have put >$20,000 into their Fiesta. As I've said before, and this is off topic, but I think that 300ish is the perfect balance...You need under $4000 to get there (doing the basics only) and the car is still manageable and reliability isn't compromised as long as you do things right. If there's any weak link in the FiST it's straight line acceleration, and 300whp fixes that issue. Of course this platform isn't about straight line acceleration, but it is a nice upgrade.

On the topic of true cost of a turbo upgrade I offer this for your viewing pleasure:

[video=youtube;I3NtaeQZBRo]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I3NtaeQZBRo&t=19s[/video]

Even my Mustang GT, which supposedly does 0-60 in 4.4 (Manual trans) I don't consider "really fast" any more. Anything under 4.0 seconds I consider really fast. Now the GT will do 3.9 with the 10 speed automatic- that's blazing fast. The way people drive, at least here in FL I even have to push the throttle pretty good on the GT to keep up with traffic. Now when I lived in Western Massachusetts it was altogether different. Lots of back roads and twisties- where my 197 HP Civic SI was so awesome, as would be the FIST. I rarely felt a lack of power living there. Heck even my Jeep Wrangler was fine and fun there. My Wrangler here in FL just can't seem to get out of it's own way and unfortunately sits most of the time.

 

[Ford ST]

It kills me that people are so obsessed with 0 to 60 times, and quarter mile times with this car it's not what it was meant for at all.
If you are bothered by getting out ran by a 400 horsepower SUV, or truck in a straight line you got the wrong car end of story.
It's very easy to put a 300 horsepower engine in something and make it go straight. It's much more difficult to make something that can handle and brake.

Sent from my LG-LS997 using Tapatalk

 

[Quickone]

It kills me that people are so obsessed with 0 to 60 times, and quarter mile times with this car it's not what it was meant for at all.
If you are bothered by getting out ran by a 400 horsepower SUV, or truck in a straight line you got the wrong car end of story.
It's very easy to put a 300 horsepower engine in something and make it go straight. It's much more difficult to make something that can handle and brake.

Sent from my LG-LS997 using Tapatalk

Then why do so many do mods to the car? It would have been great if the car came from the factory with 250-275 HP. It then would have been "average" and able to keep pace with some SUV's and minivans. If they made a new Fiesta ST like this for say 25K I'd be first in line to snatch one up. I don't like modding cars if I don't have to. Most of us want more power no matter what. I laugh on the Mustang forums that the GT has 460 HP stock and it's not enough- people add intakes, super chargers, etc. I find that the my GT has way more than enough HP so I am not even remotely considering any mods. It could get by with a less 375 HP and be enough- for me at least. It's all about getting a fun, good handling car as cheap as I can that will keep up with traffic. (I actually had a 2017 Camaro RS V6 before the GT and it was perfect- 0-60 in 5.1 second range, enough to keep up or even ahead of traffic, over 30 MPG and regular gas. But bad tranny issues forced me to get rid of it).

 

[jmrtsus]

It kills me that people are so obsessed with 0 to 60 times, and quarter mile times with this car it's not what it was meant for at all.
If you are bothered by getting out ran by a 400 horsepower SUV, or truck in a straight line you got the wrong car end of story.
It's very easy to put a 300 horsepower engine in something and make it go straight. It's much more difficult to make something that can handle and brake.

Sent from my LG-LS997 using Tapatalk

You seem to feel as I do, I personally find it absurd to buy a FiST and try to drag race it. On the other hand I have many people that cannot understand why I love to run my FiST MP-215 hard on the TOTD or even pay for the MP-215! My wife is getting grief for resto modding her '94 Dodge Stealth R/T and looking at a Mustang GT for a daily driver. We understand cars and our desire to drive a Hi-Po car. Our FiST is designed to carve canyon roads and is superb doing it, it is designed as a DD.....and superb at it. I get 37/32 Mpg, 28K on original tires and brakes. It is a small car for parking but large enough for a 2 person, 2 week camping/driving trip. I love my Fist! But if I could afford one I would trade for a Bullitt!

 

[Ford ST]

Then why do so many do mods to the car? It would have been great if the car came from the factory with 250-275 HP. It then would have been "average" and able to keep pace with some SUV's and minivans. If they made a new Fiesta ST like this for say 25K I'd be first in line to snatch one up. I don't like modding cars if I don't have to. Most of us want more power no matter what. I laugh on the Mustang forums that the GT has 460 HP stock and it's not enough- people add intakes, super chargers, etc. I find that the my GT has way more than enough HP so I am not even remotely considering any mods. It could get by with a less 375 HP and be enough- for me at least. It's all about getting a fun, good handling car as cheap as I can that will keep up with traffic. (I actually had a 2017 Camaro RS V6 before the GT and it was perfect- 0-60 in 5.1 second range, enough to keep up or even ahead of traffic, over 30 MPG and regular gas. But bad tranny issues forced me to get rid of it).

I enjoy doing mods to the car and I believe a lot of people do. Of course more power can be fun I'm not knocking it I'm just saying people shouldn't get frustrated that it's not fast in a straight line compared to something with more power.
I've never had an issue with keeping up with traffic I don't even get that. It's a 200 horsepower/ 2700 pound car it's not slow. You have brand new crossovers being made that are over 3,000 pounds, and have a 120 horsepower. That's slow.
I think you may live on a racetrack.

Sent from my LG-LS997 using Tapatalk

 

[jeff]

You guys are all echoing my same thoughts. Modding is fun and more power is nice on the ST but there comes a limit to what I'm willing to spend and how fast the car needs to get while still being reliable. This lends to why the whole drag race mod setup is a bid absurd IMHO.

Balance balance balance.

 

[GotVic]

Porsche, Penske, and Donohue quickly started the development of the 917-30, complete with a reworked aerodynamic "Paris" body and a 5.4-liter turbocharged flat-12 engine whose output could be adjusted from about 1,100 to 1,500 bhp by turning a boost knob in the cockpit. During the development of this motor, the German Porsche engineers often asked Donohue if the motor finally had enough power. He answered,

"It will never have enough power until I can spin the wheels at the end of the straightaway in high gear."​

Mark Neary Donohue Jr. (March 18, 1937 – August 19, 1975), nicknamed "Captain Nice," and later "Dark Monohue," was an American racecar driver known for his ability to set up his own race car as well as driving it to victories.

Donohue is probably best known as the driver of the 1500+ bhp "Can-Am Killer" Porsche 917-30 and as the winner of the Indianapolis 500 in 1972. Cars that Donohue raced include: AMC Javelin, AMC Matador, Chevrolet Camaro, Eagle-Offy, Elva Courier, Ford GT40 MK IV, Ferrari 250LM, Ferrari 512, Lola T70, Lola T330, Lotus 20, McLaren M16, Porsche 911, Porsche 917/10, Porsche 917/30, Shelby Cobra, and Shelby Mustang GT350R.

 

[BuiltforSin]

It kills me that people are so obsessed with 0 to 60 times, and quarter mile times with this car it's not what it was meant for at all.
If you are bothered by getting out ran by a 400 horsepower SUV, or truck in a straight line you got the wrong car end of story.
It's very easy to put a 300 horsepower engine in something and make it go straight. It's much more difficult to make something that can handle and brake.

Sent from my LG-LS997 using Tapatalk

I'm with you on this. This is not a straight line car. More power is always great, no one is going to deny that. However, this car was not setup from the factory with that in mind. It is a car that is meant to scream around the corners!