• Sign Up! To view all forums and unlock additional cool features

    Welcome to the #1 Fiesta ST Forum and Fiesta ST community dedicated to Fiesta ST owners and enthusiasts. Register for an account, it's free and it's easy, so don't hesitate to join the Fiesta ST Forum today!


Self-Tuning to ease the boredom.

dyn085

2000 Post Club
Messages
2,434
Likes
820
Location
Vancouver
#1
This is a cut/paste from other forums, but I have friends in this community that I think would be interested in following my learning curve so I decided to post one here. A lot of the specifics won't make sense to those that don't have an ST and the Cobb AP3, but I'll be as clear as possible when I post data just in case you ever fall into that category in the future...

Brief intro-I'm a satisfied owner of FreekTune'd FiST/FoST's, but the other week I took the FoST on a road-trip to pick up my gf from the airport and was getting substantial (an exaggeration) knock while simply cruising on the interstate. The FiST is rock-solid in all driving conditions that I've noticed, but the FoST has always been...finicky. I realized that the only solution would be to order ATR and tune the car myself!

To clear that up, I know that I could contact Justin and have him correct my issues and he's been awesome to work with on both platforms-I simply needed a reason (however small) to do something to re-engage my interest in the cars. I stay at a perpetual state of unhappiness with every car I own unless I'm relatively active doing something to it. I've always left tuning to the experts simply because I was intimidated by it, but after datalogging and datamining for the last six months my comfort level has grown substantially. Now that my comfort level has grown in collecting/analyzing data, I simply felt that the next logical decision was to order ATR and see if this was something I was actually interested in and/or possibly could even be decent at.

Tl;dr-It's cheaper for me to buy ATR and tinker on the cars a while longer than it is to have Justin address my issues in a faster manner and then ultimately trade my car off for something else to do new bolt-on modifications to (because that has been the 'max' level of my abilities to this point).

In the most abbreviated way possible, I loaded the Cobb Stage 3 OTS v312 tune as my base and ultimately found that the problems I was having were in the borderline tables of 6 and 7 between .4 and 1.0 load, between 2000 and 2500 rpm. It took me more logs than I would care to admit to find and address the issue efficiently, but again-it's a learning curve and a way for me to establish learning 'the process' in the future. I'll comb my data and turn it into a presentable format to post it here so that others can look at it and criticize/analyze, and I'll be spending some time reading other members' threads to try and get a better grasp of what I'm doing and where I'm going. In short, I found the problem and fixed it so now it's just about learning.

This thread won't be about getting maximum power (at least, initially)-it will be more about me learning what is going on through reading, trial-and-error, observation, advice, etc. So far it's been relatively painful (literally) in trying to get up to speed to get where I'm at right now (which, admittedly, isn't very far), but now that I've fixed my only complaint I can throttle-down and go about it in a more manageable and thorough manner. Expect many more parenthesis in the future.
 


OP
dyn085

dyn085

2000 Post Club
Messages
2,434
Likes
820
Location
Vancouver
Thread Starter #2
This was where I started on the 27th. The FoST was in the shop until Friday so I powered through them relatively quickly just to pick up some basics. In no way would I say that I understand these currently, but it was a start-
 


ryst

Member
Messages
295
Likes
29
Location
Grand Rapids
#3
In ATR, live tracing is AMAZING, even though it's only really useful if you're on a dyno or someone else is driving your car. But for tuning it's one of my favorite unique Cobb features, especially for tuning partial throttle.

Also ecoboost is a really tough platform to learn on. I messed with ATR before I totaled my ST, and now I own a 2004 WRX, and all the tuning strategies are much much simpler. I have a better handle on the subaru ECU after a short time than i ever did on the ecoboost.
 


RAAMaudio

5000 Post Club
Messages
5,268
Likes
925
Location
Carson City
#4
I am going to watch this thread like a hawk and might even have something useful to offer over time as I am getting a pro tune for the EFR but will have access to it so I can learn and tweak little, or major perhaps, things that may come up and I just want to learn more about this, not to become a tuner as I am retired and just want to have fun and know more about all this.

I do agree it is quite a complex system to tune but that also means it can be tuned to a much finer degree in many ways.

Thanks for starting this!
Rick
 


Siestarider

Senior Member
Messages
988
Likes
294
Location
Stuart
#5
I have ATR and have not generated a single map change with it, but its fun learning, and the more I learn the more I understand some of the more expert opinions here. Great to have a member doing this and sharing it. Thanks Dyno, looking forward to following this.
 


rexdriver85

Active member
Messages
598
Likes
144
Location
Allentown
#6
In for this. There's so much to learn, especially if you care to do things the right way.

Thanks for all you've been doing in the community Duane. [emoji106][emoji106]
 


OP
dyn085

dyn085

2000 Post Club
Messages
2,434
Likes
820
Location
Vancouver
Thread Starter #7
Thanks guys, I appreciate it! Hopefully I can get some decent information posted that might help others through the process. I'll outline individual steps that I've done once I can isolate them individually, and I would imagine that it will be similar or the same for the FiST.

So while I'm pruning logs, I thought I would outline my process and state of mind/thought process. I'm starting with the Stage 3 OTS map as my baseline.

-Address the negative corrections that I was seeing during steady-state travel with increasing load
-Optimize my fueling/timing for the 93 octane at the one gas station that I primarily use
-Lean burn cruise
-Rinse and repeat for 91 and then 87 octane for my gf and our upcoming cross-country move, for states that don't have 93
-Create reduced timing switchable maps for all three, for the stations that don't carry decent fuel of those grades
-Teach my gf how to not only swap between tunes but within individual maps to always have the car operating at the safest but most optimal map
-Teach my gf how to datalog

That is the short-term plan. I need to get a better feel for how to enhance resolution and how that affects the process, and would like to address VE shortly as well (especially considering how that is generally referred to as being the 'first' thing that should be done when tuning) but it's not very high on the list and I have no problem with postponing it until later. Once all of that is done then I will consider playing around with boost settings, but my main concern is getting the move put behind me with cylinder 4 intact.

All of my adjustments currently are coarse and 'just good enough' at best, but will improve in time. It took me a while to understand the relationship between the HDFX table, load, and rpm, but once I did it definitely sped things up a bit and kept me from making the same change on multiple maps when it only needed to be made on one or two. I know I'll have to make further adjustments once I adjust for VE, but I need to be able to walk away from everything relatively quickly which is why I placed it on the list where it's at.

A current V-Dyno taken from a not-so-perfect road nearby because my 'good' road is 45 minutes away and I can't sit on it doing high-speed runs all day. My spread from smoothing 1 to 6 was 7 hp which isn't the absolute worst, but it's going to be close enough for government work. This road gives me the benefit of being located just off a road that puts my car through conditions where I was seeing knock and has a safe place to pull off and make changes to the tunes, so it's an all-around decent compromise, especially with the lack of people traveling it-


My general process has been to make an extended run down and back the long road to log the discrepancies (about 10 miles-ish), then turn off onto the WOT road and begin my pull at 2k rpm in third (about 28 mph) to get the car closer to being able to peg safely at a lower rpm range. At the end of the road I pull over and park, then spend an hour combing through the data figuring out exactly what changes I want to make. I haven't made any changes to my timing ceiling, but I'm maxing out against it at 14 degrees BTDC at 6600 rpm. I'm not sure I'm comfortable raising the ceiling yet, though. Here's the log of the V-Dyno-
datazap.me | dyn085 | 513.4

At this point I have reduced my max corrections down to 1 degree to walk it in the last little bit. I'm nearly out of fuel and will be filling up with 91 in the next day or two to begin that tune.
 


iso100

1000 Post Club
Messages
1,500
Likes
135
#8
With help from [MENTION=1333]BoostBumps[/MENTION] I now have a custom tune via ATR that performs better than the protune I paid $150 for and is safer.

I have tested it in 97 degree air temps and 100 degree charge temps as well as 60/60.

No negative corrections beyond -0.6. 24.5psi boost tapering to 16 or so. Positive corrections as high as 5.25.

Heavy use of temperature compensation tables for CAT to dynamically affect timing and boost I believe contribute to the well-rounded performance.

I went with ATR because I wasn't totally happy with my protune due to the negative corrections I was seeing sometimes. I wanted a tune that works no matter the temperature and knew it was possible.
 


OP
dyn085

dyn085

2000 Post Club
Messages
2,434
Likes
820
Location
Vancouver
Thread Starter #9
Yeah, I definitely want to look into the temperature modeling eventually. Right now I'm just trying to get the brunt of the work done without paying for dyno time, and whatever is left I can do from overseas once I've coached my gf on the overall process. I might even make her drive in a day or two to try out live tracing.

I'm not unhappy with my pro-tune for either car, I just needed a weak reason to buy ATR and tinker. My FiST is solid and I can't even remember the last time I saw a negative correction in it in any gear. The FoST has been really good in town, I just never realized/confirmed the issue until taking it on this last trip. I think I'll probably extract more power in both, but mainly because I have so much more time to devote to it than any pro-tuner could reasonably give me for their fee.

My end goal is just to have enough experience to feel comfortable tuning my RS straight out of the box, assuming one ends up in my driveway...

I've seen things said/done by tuners that give me serious pause, but that's about as far as I'll go with that subject. I've looked at a whole bunch of people's logs in this and other communities, so I definitely have opinions that have been formed.
 


MKVIIST

5000 Post Club
Staff Member
Premium Account
Messages
5,778
Likes
1,046
#10
Great post Dyno, if I can get your permission I'd be happy to sticky this.
 


koozy

3000 Post Club
Messages
3,212
Likes
1,899
Location
Los Angeles, CA, USA
#11
Question for those that have purchased Pro-tunes either by email or tuned on a dyno, are the tunes locked by the vendor or are you able to look at the tables?
 


OP
dyn085

dyn085

2000 Post Club
Messages
2,434
Likes
820
Location
Vancouver
Thread Starter #12
Great post Dyno, if I can get your permission I'd be happy to sticky this.
Sure, no problem!
Question for those that have purchased Pro-tunes either by email or tuned on a dyno, are the tunes locked by the vendor or are you able to look at the tables?
I'm pretty sure they are locked by the tuner and can't be opened, though in all fairness I haven't actually tried. Even with a pro-tune for both cars, I have only seen what shows up in a datalog-not what was changed to get it there. It would be a nice shortcut, but I only learn by screwing things up on my own.

I'll try tomorrow out of curiosity, but I would imagine that if it were that simple that there would be copies of all of the pro-tuners maps floating around everywhere.
 


koozy

3000 Post Club
Messages
3,212
Likes
1,899
Location
Los Angeles, CA, USA
#13
I'm pretty sure they are locked by the tuner and can't be opened, though in all fairness I haven't actually tried. Even with a pro-tune for both cars, I have only seen what shows up in a datalog-not what was changed to get it there. It would be a nice shortcut, but I only learn by screwing things up on my own.

I'll try tomorrow out of curiosity, but I would imagine that if it were that simple that there would be copies of all of the pro-tuners maps floating around everywhere.
blah... if someone's paying of a tune they should have access to the tables and to make adjustments if they so choose. I was just curious, because it would have been interesting to see the strategies being used. For example I have yet to see HDFX or 3D tables being used with the FiST.
 


JPGC

2000 Post Club
Messages
2,011
Likes
214
Location
Middleburg
#14
Question for those that have purchased Pro-tunes either by email or tuned on a dyno, are the tunes locked by the vendor or are you able to look at the tables?
If you try to open a locked tune with ATR, it will give you an error. Pro-tuners don't want you to see what adjustments they have made :).
 


JPGC

2000 Post Club
Messages
2,011
Likes
214
Location
Middleburg
#15
[MENTION=930]dyn085[/MENTION], I like where you are going with this thread as I'm in the same boat. I've been playing around with ATR for a little while now but didn't feel the need to get to serious with it....until last weekend when I went to the dragstrip. It was hot outside and I was getting mad corrections on a tune that I normally don't have negative corrections on. I will be watching this thread to see your progress.
 


OP
dyn085

dyn085

2000 Post Club
Messages
2,434
Likes
820
Location
Vancouver
Thread Starter #16
blah... if someone's paying of a tune they should have access to the tables and to make adjustments if they so choose. I was just curious, because it would have been interesting to see the strategies being used. For example I have yet to see HDFX or 3D tables being used with the FiST.
I understand what you're saying. I don't think any/many of the tuners are making adjustments to the HDFX tables because volumetric efficiency doesn't change drastically with bolt ons. A big-turbo upgrade will definitely need HDFX tweaking, but fuel trims should be reasonable on the OEM turbo. I should probably look at some of my older FiST charts to see; I was in the middle of spark plug gap testing when I got ATR and I completely walked away from it.

ADHD.

[MENTION=930]dyn085[/MENTION], I like where you are going with this thread as I'm in the same boat. I've been playing around with ATR for a little while now but didn't feel the need to get to serious with it....until last weekend when I went to the dragstrip. It was hot outside and I was getting mad corrections on a tune that I normally don't have negative corrections on. I will be watching this thread to see your progress.
The thing that's been confusing for me has been the approach outlined in the users guide. Everything (admittedly not a *lot*) that I've read up to this has basically outlined the general tuning process like this-

Find VE
Adjust fuel based on VE to a slightly rich (read: safer) AFR
Adjust timing to optimal
Global timing reduction, increase boost

Rinse and repeat as required until boost targets are achieved, find MBT, global reduction of two degrees for safety. Over-simplified for discussion.

Tuning guide-

Decrease boost
Increase boost
Wastegate adjustments
Small fuel blurb
Small timing blurb
Confusing VE reference

Again, over-simplified for discussion, but that was my initial impression. I think I understand why (HDFX changes aren't going to be necessary for the majority of users), but it took me a while to understand. Timing changes became so much simpler (for my initial problem on the FoST) when I understood the relationship between the HDFX tables and the borderline tables. WOT is WOT and is relatively simple in the grand scheme of things (comparatively), but because my concern was daily driving and under-the-curve adjustments as opposed to just raising boost...

Though admittedly I kind of jumped in feet first to find out how deep the water was.

I'm about to write up a post for my threads outlining my first day's worth of tuning, what was done wrong and why, what was done right and why, and my overall lessons learned. I wasted a LOT of time that day, but it's ok because I was learning. Everything I learned that day will play into future tunes, but I think I reset back to the initial Stage 3 OTS map four or five times in the process. I'll be staying in a slightly different direction this time when I fuel up with 91, and I'll outline reasons why as well.

Edit: I went back to an old datalog on the FiST and LTFT/STFT are very reasonable for my setup. Maybe that's in part because I don't have an intake, but I could reasonably not make any changes there. I probably will though, in time.
 


OP
dyn085

dyn085

2000 Post Club
Messages
2,434
Likes
820
Location
Vancouver
Thread Starter #18
Cut/Paste (sorry if some of this gets redundant or repeated, it's hard managing this discussion in multiple communities simultaneously)-


The first thing that I did when I got the FoST home was pull the plugs and verify my gaps at .028", which they were because I only installed them a couple of months ago. I saw no need to do a pressure test because the car idles at around -9.5 to -10 psi when warmed up. Happy with my mechanical setup, I installed the base tune and headed out. I took the stage 3 base tune and enrichened the lambda to .8 in the Desired Fuel Target (Power Demand) in both the Fuel Tables and in Switchable Map 1 from 2k rpm and up, only in the 82C column because I avoid using full power at all costs when the engine isn't fully warmed up. I also decided early on to on run one map while learning to avoid trying to manage multiple maps and possibly introducing error.

My first day was mostly a waste, outside of establishing the learning curve. I loaded up the stage3 OTS+fuel map and went to a long road relatively nearby that gave me constant elevation changes under cruise-control conditions, and at the end of it is a relatively smooth and unpopulated road for third-gear WOT runs. At the end of that road is a good area to pull off and evaluate my data/make corrections, so the overall situation was basically perfect for what I needed. My basic process was to leave the tuning area, travel back to the main road, set cruise control at 60 mph (5 mph over) and drive it for about 5 miles, turn around and cruise-control back, then perform a WOT run back to the tuning area to collect data to make those changes as well.

Initially, I was making timing adjustments at 1/2 of my max correction and applying them to all of the borderline tables. For the WOT runs it seemed like I kept adding and adding and adding...until I realized that the stoich rate was set at .96 lambda and I'm pretty confident that the 93 octane I get is E0. I reset back to the OTS+ map but with the fuel scalar set to 1, effectively leaning out the commanded fuel, and all of my corrections became much more manageable. I do need to get a fuel tester to make 100% sure that I'm running E0, but everything became much more manageable there so I left it alone for further changes and will revisit it once I have the tester and get back to using the 93 fuel.

With that change, I began fresh in collecting ordinary driving and WOT logs. This is where I ran into my next problem, which was making the timing changes that I felt were needed across every single borderline table. I had read somewhere that when a change was needed to be made on the borderline table that they should be copied into all of them, and the next thing I know I'm getting negative corrections while accelerating from a stop. My initial assumption was that I just made too aggressive of a compensation, so I would make my next load/rpm change across all maps...

And that's when I finally understood how the HDFX table works. I now see that WOT changes can be made to all 16 tables due to it's restricted rpm/load range, but my sweeping changes to all tables for .6-1 load/2-2.5k rpm was wreaking havoc. I dropped the majority of my monitors that I was collecting and added the HDFX weighted monitors and realized that my changes only needed to be isolated to tables 6 and 7. So again, I reset back to the OTS+ map and started fresh.

Then I realized that if I set cruise to 55 mph instead of 60 that I would be at almost exactly 2k rpm, further isolating the data that needed changing. Back to the OTS+ map.

Suddenly, everything fell in line and all of my negative corrections were gone in all of the driving that I was currently doing. My WOT ignition curve was now hitting the ceiling for about the last 500 rpm with positive corrections still occurring below that, so I set my max Knock Sensor Timing Max (Advance) to 1 with the intent of walking it in slower from there, and decided to give it a rest for some interstate testing. The following day I took it out on the interstate for a few hours and only ever saw one negative correction, and I think it was something ludicrous like -.04. I decided that that was a good enough point to stop for right now on that particular tune.

I dabbled during the process with some lean cruise in the 0-2 rows of the 93C column in the Closed Loop Fueling (Base), but I'm not pleased with it and need to work on it some more. I have been seeing an additional 2 mpg though, so it's not completely horrible. I seem to only be able to idle at 15.4 in order to cruise at 15.4, and then I'm not getting enough fuel when I'm lazily coming up to speed (though that's probably just over-thinking it, I should just accelerate a bit more aggressively).

I also realized in the last day of trying to prune and make my information presentable that I am the most disorganized person you know. Because of that, I've added a notepad to my arsenal and will record/document my progress with my 91E10 tune in a way that I can actually come back and present the information...
 


RAAMaudio

5000 Post Club
Messages
5,268
Likes
925
Location
Carson City
#19
I will have an unlocked pro tune for my EFR, should have the car up and running finally today:)

I had to get a few parts to finish up the install due to my highly modded car the normally bolt on DHM kit required me to make some changes to the parts I had built.

I am deffinately going to spend some time looking all this over and checking it out to make it better if needed:):)

I should have a very good offer on my house today and 4 weeks to finish up many projects and move into the trailer so will not have time for this fun stuff for awhile but will study it and learn all I can before diving in!
 


Messages
312
Likes
125
Location
Toronto
#20
Something strange I'm reading... Referring to "pro-tune" vs "ATR" tune...
It's the same thing. But, you are referring to an e-tune if you didn't have the tuner in your car. A protune would be when the car is tuned onsite.

One other thing you mentioned lean burn cruise. That's impossible in this car, you would have to develop an entirely different cylinder head.
 


Similar threads



Top