Scion is DEAD

[nickstewartroc]

I do agree that the FiST will be a limited run vehicle, at least in the US. My reasoning is that our car culture sucks ass compared to other countries. I'm not saying we're the only country that likes high HP and big speed, but we focus on it more than anyone else in my experience. In the UK, for example, people drive cars with 7 second 0-60 times and call them "proper quick", but in the US we see that as "OMG SO SLOW!!!!!111!!!1".

Just look at the car comparison comments on various sites... "Why would you buy a BRZ when you can have a V6 Mustang for the same price". Our car culture doesn't care as much about chassis refinement, handling FEEL, a car's spirit, the concept of 'driver's car', etc, as we do about raw power and speed and that sucks. It sucks because in the end it's why car companies can't afford to give us long runs of unique and fun cars like The FiST, the BRZ/FR-S, etc. We just don't buy them enough on the whole because the non-enthusiast is going to go to Ford and see the fully load FiST with a $25.6k sticker and then see the comparably equipped V6 Mustang with the same $25.6 sticker, or close enough, and choose the Mustang every time because Mustang and because both can be haggled under MSRP/sticker.

We are our own worst enemy when it comes to the cars available to us. Hell, the BRZ/FR-S is the perfect example of this. Enthusiasts begged for a competent handling, fun to drive, inexpensive RWD car for years and they got it. At first it was the second coming, then after a very short time all the "it's too slow" complaints started coming and year over year the sales dropped. Yes, the sales dropped partly because of those who wanted one already having one, but they also dropped because word got out that they were "dogs" and here in 'Murica we can't drive a car that can get beaten in a sprint by a V6 Camry/Accord/Minivan!

Fun fact - when both are professionally driven the twins match the FiST in 0-60 and 1/4 times, but the FiST is never really referred to as "slow" yet that's all you ever hear about the twins.

Why? The torque feel that is lacking on the twins? Or is it because we're a lazy culture and hate the idea of working for our speed by downshifting and reving the hell out of it? Could the twins have been faster off the shelf, sure, but considering they are purpose built and not just a re-working of an existing platform that is used to recoup the cost, it would have cost a helluva lot more than $25k to buy and then you're right back in the same boat, only this time it's "why buy the BRZ at $35k when I can get an STi, or Mustang GT w/ performance pack at the same price!".

Anyway, I'm ranting and going off base on the topic here, but in the end, we want these small, unique, quirky, fun, good handling cars for $25k or less, but we don't buy them enough when we get them and we complain too much about what else should have been included in that $25k so they don't last and it sucks.

I know first hand what you mean. Up until the FiST, I was all about trying to get a powerful engine in my cars. I bought a 2010 Fusion Sport with the 3.5l and coming from a 2.0 Focus, it was a big step up in "power" but still enjoyed tossing around the Focus from time to time. After a while of the Fusion, I set my sights on a Taurus SHO, ended up with a 2011 SHO. While it had twin turbos, and after mods pushing somewhere past 400awhp, I still wasn't happy. I always thought to have fun you needed "Power" and lots of it, but here I was with "power" and traded it in on a FiST. I cannot begin to say how much better the driving is with the FiST over the SHO. But the whole time growing up all I would ever here was power, power, power. I had to learn for myself that power really is not everything!

 

[Wimp Lo]

Car companies need halo vehicles, the car everyone thinks is cool right up to the point when they buy a more economical base model. That is why you see limited production ST, RS and GT models.

For the Fiesta ST, it's upgraded brakes, a stiffened rear axle, different springs and struts/shocks, different engine (but sharing many things with the non EcoBoost base 1.6l engine), different transmission, different wheels and a slightly different interior.

From a manufacturing perspective, once you get above a certain volume it's no more expensive to produce the ST parts than base model except for the rear brakes, engine, transmission and interior.

Looking at the Focus ST, it seems like that car got a whole lot more ST specific upgrades than the Fiesta ST and it's just a hair more expensive. If there is one car that doesn't have a profit margin, it's probably that one.

Any way, a smart manufacturer would develop a product line that has options that are attractive in all market segments and a few special cars with lesser sales expectations to give the lineup that halo. Fiesta ST seems like a very cheap car for that halo effect and with the growing popularity of WRC and X-games style GRC, it has race pedigree that few real sports cars have these days.

I would love to see what the bottom line is if you compare the Focus ST business to the Fiesta ST business.

I like the Scion FRS, I would drive one but it is slow. It also doesn't have as much space in the rear seat or trunk, it's just not terribly practical compared to a Fiesta ST and it doesn't have the Fiesta ST instant torque power delivery, it makes you work for it. I think Toyota desperately needs cars like the FRS even if they don't sell particularly well. They would sell a lot better if they had a WRX STI engine in them.

 

[scotman]

I do agree that the FiST will be a limited run vehicle, at least in the US. My reasoning is that our car culture sucks ass compared to other countries. I'm not saying we're the only country that likes high HP and big speed, but we focus on it more than anyone else in my experience. In the UK, for example, people drive cars with 7 second 0-60 times and call them "proper quick", but in the US we see that as "OMG SO SLOW!!!!!111!!!1".

Just look at the car comparison comments on various sites... "Why would you buy a BRZ when you can have a V6 Mustang for the same price". Our car culture doesn't care as much about chassis refinement, handling FEEL, a car's spirit, the concept of 'driver's car', etc, as we do about raw power and speed and that sucks. It sucks because in the end it's why car companies can't afford to give us long runs of unique and fun cars like The FiST, the BRZ/FR-S, etc. We just don't buy them enough on the whole because the non-enthusiast is going to go to Ford and see the fully load FiST with a $25.6k sticker and then see the comparably equipped V6 Mustang with the same $25.6 sticker, or close enough, and choose the Mustang every time because Mustang and because both can be haggled under MSRP/sticker.

We are our own worst enemy when it comes to the cars available to us. Hell, the BRZ/FR-S is the perfect example of this. Enthusiasts begged for a competent handling, fun to drive, inexpensive RWD car for years and they got it. At first it was the second coming, then after a very short time all the "it's too slow" complaints started coming and year over year the sales dropped. Yes, the sales dropped partly because of those who wanted one already having one, but they also dropped because word got out that they were "dogs" and here in 'Murica we can't drive a car that can get beaten in a sprint by a V6 Camry/Accord/Minivan!

Fun fact - when both are professionally driven the twins match the FiST in 0-60 and 1/4 times, but the FiST is never really referred to as "slow" yet that's all you ever hear about the twins.

Why? The torque feel that is lacking on the twins? Or is it because we're a lazy culture and hate the idea of working for our speed by downshifting and reving the hell out of it? Could the twins have been faster off the shelf, sure, but considering they are purpose built and not just a re-working of an existing platform that is used to recoup the cost, it would have cost a helluva lot more than $25k to buy and then you're right back in the same boat, only this time it's "why buy the BRZ at $35k when I can get an STi, or Mustang GT w/ performance pack at the same price!".

Anyway, I'm ranting and going off base on the topic here, but in the end, we want these small, unique, quirky, fun, good handling cars for $25k or less, but we don't buy them enough when we get them and we complain too much about what else should have been included in that $25k so they don't last and it sucks.

There are lots of small cars of the type enthusiasts like, they just exist under the radar of traditional marketing reach. These cars are far easier to find at track events and autocrosses. The U.S. market has a flood of choices. There are no losers here in that respect. But, people who favor smallish hot hatches need to purchase them when they are made available! In just a few months the Fist will not be available to order. and used will have to do.

 

[Sil3nt611]

Other than the FR-S I thought most of Scions cars were pretty ugly. But then I was saying the same thing about a lot of Toyota's lineup anyway. A lot of car manufacturers make a few spinoff brands that share the same basic vehicles to designate luxury vs normal vs basic and so on. Seemed Scion was making cars that seemed a bit different than most Toyotas though.

 

[JasonHaven]

Regarding the FR-S power output. I was always totally fine with the peak numbers. In a way it kind of reminded me of some high strung Hondas. What I was not ok with was the giant dip in power in an often used range of rpm. I put this together when in my very early stages of car shopping, Edmunds dyno'd both, so that was handy.