Running FiST with E85 Blends - Discussion Thread

[danbfree]

Shell, Exxon, BP for example all put more additives in the premium fuel. I'm still not the biggest fan of ethanol especially after having to take apart carburetors on lawn equipment because of it. I have read the owner's manuals on flex fuel vehicles, and it says if you run e85 follow the severe operations maintenance schedule. I don't care if y'all put cat piss in your gas tank your car your choice.

You're missing a key fact, storage time... Yes for boats and lawn mowers that sit around and storing cars you want e0, period. Otherwise, along as you use it up within a few weeks it doesn't have time to attract the damaging water, and most people do go use it up quickly with their cars. Ethanol is God's Fuel, the potential for so much power from both the actual fuel octane and how it runs cooler is amazing. Also, Top Tier is Top Tier, it's a pretty stringent requirement that the Germans demanded and yes, while Arco may meet it and bigger brands put even more cleaners in but ethanol is a cleaner itself that more than makes up for it and the extra power will literally blast away deposits through more airflow and more intense combustion.

 

[danbfree]

Danbfree..its like a couple buck meng! You know your FiST deserves the best! So be nice and pony up!

Best how? Do you put an extra pound of frosting on a cake that is just gonna get scrapped off anyway? That's exactly the discussion I'm trying to have with actual tuners, nothing personal. Too many people just assume it's "better" when it's mainly just the octane difference that won't be used past a certain and as far as detergents, just use Top Tier, but even then ethanol is a cleaner in itself... see where I'm going now?

 

[Ford ST]

You're missing a key fact, storage time... Yes for boats and lawn mowers that sit around and storing cars you want e0, period. Otherwise, along as you use it up within a few weeks it doesn't have time to attract the damaging water, and most people do go use it up quickly with their cars. Ethanol is God's Fuel, the potential for so much power from both the actual fuel octane and how it runs cooler is amazing. Also, Top Tier is Top Tier, it's a pretty stringent requirement that the Germans demanded and yes, while Arco may meet it and bigger brands put even more cleaners in but ethanol is a cleaner itself that more than makes up for it and the extra power will literally blast away deposits through more airflow and more intense combustion.

it's not my daily driver I've only put 7000 miles on it in 2 years, and I don't drive it once the temperatures go below 40 degrees. It's your car man I don't care what you do it's just not for me.

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[danbfree]

it's not my daily driver I've only put 7000 miles on it in 2 years, and I don't drive it once the temperatures go below 40 degrees. It's your car man I don't care what you do it's just not for me.

No, absolutely fair enough, definitely not for you with that little use for sure... that said definitely not the right thread for you too since it simply doesn't apply, LOL.

 

[Brickell FIST]

Why would full E85 yield worse performance vs E50? Just curious.

 

[danbfree]

Why would full E85 yield worse performance vs E50? Just curious.

It wouldn't but the fuel system without injector and fuel pump upgrades can only handle e50 at the very most safely before start to lean out.... and, not replying to you here, but just to reiterate, we pretty much all know that e30 will max out the stock turbo but e50 offers the convenience of no math to simply mix half and half. On another thread, I also gave my personal observation of using 87 as the mixer is fine too, the difference between 87 and 91/93 is mainly some additional detergents and octane boosters, both unneeded when you already have more octane, more charge cooling AND more cleaning power that you'll ever need with so much ethanol. Some people will just want to use premium regardless, and I made a case why I think that's a waste on a stock turbo, but to each their own. I'm not gonna bash anyone for it, I was just making my case "scientifically" for discussion purposes for those who wish to engage.

 

[Brickell FIST]

It wouldn't but the fuel system without injector and fuel pump upgrades can only handle e50 at the very most safely before start to lean out.... and, not replying to you here, but just to reiterate, we pretty much all know that e30 will max out the stock turbo but e50 offers the convenience of no math to simply mix half and half. On another thread, I also gave my personal observation of using 87 as the mixer is fine too, the difference between 87 and 91/93 is mainly some additional detergents and octane boosters, both unneeded when you already have more octane, more charge cooling AND more cleaning power that you'll ever need with so much ethanol. Some people will just want to use premium regardless, and I made a case why I think that's a waste on a stock turbo, but to each their own. I'm not gonna bash anyone for it, I was just making my case "scientifically" for discussion purposes for those who wish to engage.

Forgot to add I have a four port and the injectors to handle it. E50 is the sweet spot for that and I was curious why not full E85 if you have all the support mods.

 

[TyphoonFiST]

I edited my post. 91 would be considered premium though correct? [emoji872][emoji872]

Really? C'mon brodiglio! Yes....it is silly!

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[danbfree]

Forgot to add I have a four port and the injectors to handle it. E50 is the sweet spot for that and I was curious why not full E85 if you have all the support mods.

Yeah, good point, but I think the research has been done and there wouldn't be any power benefit at all going past e50, so you'd be throwing money at it for literally nothing other than no mixing, which I've heard a couple of sponsored race cars were done that way. E85 itself was originally launched to help lower CO2 emissions, nothing more, and that fact is in question now, but enthusiasts have always known the benefits of ethanol for power potential. So with experimentation on different cars by their enthusiasts/tuning communities, it was found that indeed e50 is the top end, even past the sweet spot of e30, for gains for our engines.

 

[Hijinx]

Why would full E85 yield worse performance vs E50? Just curious.

You need X amount of fuel for X amount of power. The volume needed for 200whp on E85 is more than that of 91/93. As an example, imagine gallons of water and you only have the capability to carry one: 200whp would require two gallons of E85, while 91/93 would only require one. So, in keeping in line with this simple example, you end up only making 100whp on E85 because that’s all you can carry.

For real life, you’d use the Brake Specific Fuel Consumption (BFSC) of that fuel to determine your fuel needs. A rough estimate would be the HP * BFSC. The BFSC of E85 is .6-.8, while 91/93 is .4-.5. The product of that expression is the lbs of fuel per hour.

 

[MRX330]

Who cares about the stock engine/turbo? It’s ceiling is low and talking about tunes and fuel is ridiculously boring. Lambda this lambda that. You can only get so much out of it end of story. Stop trying to squeeze blood from the stone. More air and more fuel. Without those you’re just pulling your pud and wasting your money. I look back now and I would have never wasted money trying to make the stock turbo do more. Save up for a big turbo and accompanying mods. 😮

 

[Dpro]

Who cares about the stock engine/turbo? It’s ceiling is low and talking about tunes and fuel is ridiculously boring. Lambda this lambda that. You can only get so much out of it end of story. Stop trying to squeeze blood from the stone. More air and more fuel. Without those you’re just pulling your pud and wasting your money. I look back now and I would have never wasted money trying to make the stock turbo do more. Save up for a big turbo and accompanying mods. 😮

Interesting point. Most of my mods so far have all been stuff that will be needed or aid running a hybrid or BT. I know people say you can throw a bt with stock intake pipes and exhaust on but at the same time everything helps in the flow department. My crossover pipe , intaketube and ST200 Airbox are all things I would purchase while doinng a turbo upgrade. My AP and intercooler again are both needed as well. Got my tunes with my AP and for a good price.
Got my charge pipe and hoses for $80 it helps when you have friends,
Exhaust well just glad I got that cause it makes the car just sound sweeter.
So ya not really money wasted in my eyes . I guess it depends on how far down the rabbit hole one wants to go.
In my case it was the realization I would be wanting more power. I will most likely run the Tunes I have till move upward on the turbo scale but if I desire $75 for a Dizzy tune is really not wasting a lot of money.IMO

 

[TyphoonFiST]

Who cares about the stock engine/turbo? It’s ceiling is low and talking about tunes and fuel is ridiculously boring. Lambda this lambda that. You can only get so much out of it end of story. Stop trying to squeeze blood from the stone. More air and more fuel. Without those you’re just pulling your pud and wasting your money. I look back now and I would have never wasted money trying to make the stock turbo do more. Save up for a big turbo and accompanying mods. [emoji50]

Just drove back from SoDak....38.9 MPGs @ 70-75mph..A/c on 90° there and back ....BT/ Gen2 GTX2860r....hell yes....tuned by Jasom@dizzytuning!

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[danbfree]

You need X amount of fuel for X amount of power. The volume needed for 200whp on E85 is more than that of 91/93. As an example, imagine gallons of water and you only have the capability to carry one: 200whp would require two gallons of E85, while 91/93 would only require one. So, in keeping in line with this simple example, you end up only making 100whp on E85 because that’s all you can carry.

For real life, you’d use the Brake Specific Fuel Consumption (BFSC) of that fuel to determine your fuel needs. A rough estimate would be the HP * BFSC. The BFSC of E85 is .6-.8, while 91/93 is .4-.5. The product of that expression is the lbs of fuel per hour.

Well, the bottom line is you only get about 10% less mileage on e30 and so far not much worse trying an e50 tune that was provided to me for evaluation, but we'll see how it comes out for the whole tank. Ethanol blends can also be ran leaner with it's superior knock protection obviously, so that's why the mileage hit isn't so bad. Under WOT, I'll hit as rich as 10.2 AFR on pump and on e30/50 I see 12.05.

 

[danbfree]

Who cares about the stock engine/turbo? It’s ceiling is low and talking about tunes and fuel is ridiculously boring. Lambda this lambda that. You can only get so much out of it end of story. Stop trying to squeeze blood from the stone. More air and more fuel. Without those you’re just pulling your pud and wasting your money. I look back now and I would have never wasted money trying to make the stock turbo do more. Save up for a big turbo and accompanying mods. 😮

Because the stock turbo makes almost as much torque as a hybrid and for many of us that's all we need... Sure, the high pull of a hybrid is awesome, but some of us, you know, actually just want to help max out what's provided in the econobox our car is. There is no waste of money once you realize most bolt on's do very little and just stick to the basics and run ethanol tunes.

 

[Hijinx]

Well, the bottom line is you only get about 10% less mileage on e30 and so far not much worse trying an e50 tune that was provided to me for evaluation, but we'll see how it comes out for the whole tank. Ethanol blends can also be ran leaner with it's superior knock protection obviously, so that's why the mileage hit isn't so bad. Under WOT, I'll hit as rich as 10.2 AFR on pump and on e30/50 I see 12.05.

Ethanol blends are reported “leaner” because they have a different stoichometry than gasoline.

 

[MRX330]

Interesting point. Most of my mods so far have all been stuff that will be needed or aid running a hybrid or BT. I know people say you can throw a bt with stock intake pipes and exhaust on but at the same time everything helps in the flow department. My crossover pipe , intaketube and ST200 Airbox are all things I would purchase while doinng a turbo upgrade. My AP and intercooler again are both needed as well. Got my tunes with my AP and for a good price.
Got my charge pipe and hoses for $80 it helps when you have friends,
Exhaust well just glad I got that cause it makes the car just sound sweeter.
So ya not really money wasted in my eyes . I guess it depends on how far down the rabbit hole one wants to go.
In my case it was the realization I would be wanting more power. I will most likely run the Tunes I have till move upward on the turbo scale but if I desire $75 for a Dizzy tune is really not wasting a lot of money.IMO

Well that’s the point really. If you have a goal you can buy parts that can improve performance but will also be able to support a big turbo down the road. A tuned stock turbo is fun for a while but it will never make it a fast car. The sooner one is honest with oneself about that makes the mod path so much clearer. 👌🚀👋🇺🇸

 

[MRX330]

Really? C'mon brodiglio! Yes....it is silly!

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Hey I never even sniffed 91 my whole life until I was out here in the vast middle. But oh boy I will always have a 91 tune guaranteed you betcha! Unicorn shit will soon be banned so edit your gif you monster 👌

 

[Ford ST]

I'm not even going to do a Turbo upgrade and I agree that it would be better for some people to just bite the bullet and upgrade the turbo. The whole real high torque numbers without increasing your horsepower significantly I hate to tell anybody this but that's basically how a diesel engine acts. I will continue to do upgrades but I want to keep this car for a eternity. The upgraded intercooler will be going on next year in the spring for sure when I commit to something I commit.
But everyone has a right to do what they want to do with their car. If you want to put 5,000 octane fuel in go ahead, if you want to put unicorn blood in for oil go ahead. I love this car but I'm also honest with myself in the fact that I know high horsepower in my opinion is much more enjoyable than torque.

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[MRX330]

I will run an E50 tune btw because of how much ethanol content can vary station to station . Plus mpg will be better than straight E85 with very little left on the table. Also after running E50 I will give the car a flush with Chevron 93 with Techron because Corn 🌽🚀🇺🇸👋👋👋