RMM and false knock?

[Sourskittle]

Really?! I thought you forgot to mail those, lol. I didn't know what those plates were
I just saw that driver mount while installing the bomaba shifter bracket bushings and we made fun of it for a couple minutes. It has a big gap to move around it.

I'm thinking we may be able to fill the passenger side mount with something stiffer but flexable.

 

[Chuckable]

Great discussion. Thanks for the input. Don't think we have a solid conclusion yet without multiple sets of data, though.

 

[RAAMaudio]

I have made my own mounts for front, rear and transaxle sides but not passenger side liquid filled mounts but I might look into it, I have some two part 80 durometer urethane and I have some windsheild stuff in a tube but it would not fully cure if injected all at one time but a bit at a time might work. The two part stuff takes a long time to fully cure though and I would probably want to have a spare mount to do it right so I can still use the car now that I finally can after 7 months on the lift.

The aluminum bits are so you can piece an insert together so you can figure out exactly how you would want to make it and then you can have them made to sell to others if you wish.

I think it is a mandatory part as the stock setup flexes so dramatically.

 

[dyn085]

Has anybody actually datalogged this to be a legitimate concern? I've seen a lot of posts lately where people are concerned about the possible issue, but I've never seen a datalog from someone that actually has had an issue. Seems like vaporware to me.

 

[Sourskittle]

No really drives around leaving the park in 1-2 gear dataloging to see it. On the track, its a big issue. You shift the next gear , the car hesitates and you lose time.

 

[razorlab]

No really drives around leaving the park in 1-2 gear dataloging to see it. On the track, its a big issue. You shift the next gear , the car hesitates and you lose time.

It has to be more than a single 1* timing pull to cause hesitation. Are you sure it's not the shift assist stuff and/or NLTS settings? Have you messed with that at all? Also are you only getting that on the 1-2 shift?

 

[Sourskittle]

At the track it was 2.00-2.5 and sometimes it was 1-2, 2-3, 3-4. It was random too. So it was like 1 step forward, 1step back on tuning the timing at the track.

But the 1* happened this morning. I have speed bumps and a good 60sec before I get out of 1-2 gear. And with zero psi I had 1* correction.

I reallize I do have the stiffest rmm ever though.:.

 

[dyn085]

No really drives around leaving the park in 1-2 gear dataloging to see it. On the track, its a big issue. You shift the next gear , the car hesitates and you lose time.

People that have the issue should datalog it to verify. I've yet to see anything factual about it as it's always just been word of mouth. If users are actually experiencing it then they should log it and show it along with stating what RMM they're using so that other users have actual data to rely on in their decision-making process. It's about members helping other members, not just regurgitating what is possibly hearsay or what may not apply to certain RMM options.

 

[Sourskittle]

Pretty hard to argue with a picture of the access port showing 1 full degree of retard leaving a children's park with less and 4psi and almost no mass air. Its a motor that sees 24psi+ on the norm without knock, but it had a real knock at 2100rpms in 1-2 gear? Lol. Hard to imagine that was actual knock and not driveline noise of some type.

 

[dyn085]

Pretty hard to argue with a picture of the access port showing 1 full degree of retard leaving a children's park with less and 4psi and almost no mass air. Its a motor that sees 24psi+ on the norm without knock, but it had a real knock at 2100rpms in 1-2 gear? Lol. Hard to imagine that was actual knock and not driveline noise of some type.

I had a meme and a thought-out post typed up, but there's no real need to post it because you're always hell-bent on people just taking your word on it instead of backing it up with data. Your picture means nothing unless you can swap your mount and take an identical picture showing no retarded timing.

That's the beauty of data-logging-someone can do a third-gear pull supposedly showing knock, go home and swap the mount in a few minutes, then go pull a nearly identical log for comparison. If it's a legitimate issue then they can actually show it and help other members with actual data. I would be more inclined to think your picture is a fueling/tune issue than a RMM, but that's just speculation because it's just a picture. Besides, what cars are showing 11.76 AFR 'at 3psi with barely any air moving'...?

I can go pull a picture of the AP3 on my FoST showing timing being pulled, so should I change the RMM in it as well? It is, after all, still stock...

 

[razorlab]

I have a boomba RMM sitting on my shelf in the garage that I still haven't installed. Honestly I haven't felt the need to as I don't really notice anything odd with the car but I also don't bang gears.

I could install and see if it does weird stuff....

 

[dyn085]

I have a boomba RMM sitting on my shelf in the garage that I still haven't installed. Honestly I haven't felt the need to as I don't really notice anything odd with the car but I also don't bang gears.

I could install and see if it does weird stuff....

That would be sweet as I'm curious to see whether real-world data confirms or denies it.

 

[BoostBumps]

These past posts might be helpful....they were posted here on the forum roughly 5 months ago by Braden @ Cobb....

http://www.fiestastforum.com/forum/...l1-quot-AP-guage?p=23911&viewfull=1#post23911

....Ignition timing correction is an individual adder for each cylinder based on knock sensor feedback and will vary for each specific cylinder. When monitoring ignition timing correction, you will want to see positive values as this indicates low levels of noise. Negative values will occur, but should not sustain. Typically, values up to -2.0 are acceptable under light load or transient situations, but if they are sustained during high load (WOT) conditions the octane level may need to be increased or the calibration changed to that of something less aggressive.

-Braden @ COBB

....If you are referring to negative ignition timing corrections, these are not likely going to cause damage as the system is adjusting based on feedback. Over time, if these corrections remain it will make an adjustment to the OAR (Octane Adjust Ratio) which will globally lower the amount of timing that can be added to prevent knock. This OAR value will continually adjust itself as conditions change to give the most optimal combustion. Our calibrations are designed to take advantage of this dynamic system such that a fully learned OAR of -1.0 will deliver the maximum power we calibrate for.

-Braden @ COBB

[HR][/HR]
Also here is some further explanation / clarification regarding Ford's knock control strategy I received awhile back directly from Braden @ Cobb (I've highlighted some key points he makes)...


"The "Knock Count Cyl X" monitors are representing a count of perceived knock events by the knock control strategy for each individual cylinder. They may or may not be actual events based on the vehicle modifications, but the system will respond in the following way (Focus/Fiesta/Fusion).

If the KC# is <3 the "Fast" ignition correction rate will be used to ramp in ignition timing corrections (make power faster!). If the KC# is >= 3 the individual cylinder correction will switch to the "Slow" rate. This is done to try to achieve the most power in the fastest time when conditions are optimal. The system will reset after every throttle lift or if other conditions are met to reset the counters.

The counters will continue to rise even if going above 3, but that shouldn't be alarming. The system is adjusting on the fly and will ramp in or ramp out ignition timing at the needed rate. On some vehicles this strategy may need to be adjusted further for modifications such as engine mounts, exhaust systems, etc"

 

[Sourskittle]

Yes... Lol. I have tons of reasons to go through a crap load of trouble to take a screen shot showing correction,
With 3psi, lol. Why would I or ANYONE go through any amount of trouble to lie about this? Lol.

The guy I bought the mount from, posted on this thread before I did claiming the samething. But he's prob making it all up because he didn't drive around doing a 45min datalog to prove it happened, AFTER HE SOLD HIS CAR, lol.

 

[Sourskittle]

I just made this up too.... No boost with knock

 

[COBB Tuning1]

Pretty hard to argue with a picture of the access port showing 1 full degree of retard leaving a children's park with less and 4psi and almost no mass air. Its a motor that sees 24psi+ on the norm without knock, but it had a real knock at 2100rpms in 1-2 gear? Lol. Hard to imagine that was actual knock and not driveline noise of some type.

At low engine loads the engine will typically be running very close to MBT timing. I wouldn't be suprised to see small corrections in this area as it's going to be extremely tight regarding timing and stoichiometric operation. While there could be some noise coming from external sources, it's likely that the borderline tables are just a bit aggressive at those low load areas. A couple of small adjustments should clean everything up. Simply monitor your HDFX Table Weights and determine which tables are active during those timing corrections. Pull a degree or two out, and see if it persists.

Cheers,
-Braden @ COBB

 

[dyn085]

Yes... Lol. I have tons of reasons to go through a crap load of trouble to take a screen shot showing correction,
With 3psi, lol. Why would I or ANYONE go through any amount of trouble to lie about this? Lol.

The guy I bought the mount from, posted on this thread before I did claiming the samething. But he's prob making it all up because he didn't drive around doing a 45min datalog to prove it happened, AFTER HE SOLD HIS CAR, lol.

You're missing my point, but I can't seem to make it any simpler for you. Like I said above, someone can come to a false conclusion without the correct data.

If there's a legitimate issue, what proof do we have and what mounts are affected? Your screenshot of 11.76 AFR at 3 psi says absolutely zero about the motor mount because it's one single screenshot. I can stab the throttle for a negative correction with low boost in my FoST, but that doesn't mean my OEM RMM is too stiff.

 

[BoostBumps]

At low engine loads the engine will typically be running very close to MBT timing. I wouldn't be suprised to see small corrections in this area as it's going to be extremely tight regarding timing and stoichiometric operation. While there could be some noise coming from external sources, it's likely that the borderline tables are just a bit aggressive at those low load areas. A couple of small adjustments should clean everything up. Simply monitor your HDFX Table Weights and determine which tables are active during those timing corrections. Pull a degree or two out, and see if it persists.

Cheers,
-Braden @ COBB

thanks Braden...

 

[dyn085]

I just made this up too.... No boost with knock

Hey look, your 6-gauge changed one single data display.

 

[iso100]

Pull a degree or two out, and see if it persists.

Cheers,
-Braden @ COBB

Guys, seriously. How awesome is it that Braden participates on this forum and offers advice like this?