REVIEW: Pierce Motorsports 2pt lower chassis brace + rear torsion bar = A+ mods

[jeff]

I have the TB traction bar, and it doesn't prevent wheel spin, you can easily still light up the tires especially if you're running an AP. It does however pretty much eliminate wheel hop, which is always a good thing.

The two point brace helped my car with wheel hop (not 100%, but a noticeable improvement)

My federal 595 rsr tires helped with traction.

Don't confuse the name "traction bar" with wheel spin. It helps with hop when launching.

Ill tell you how, The chassis on this car is very flexible. it moves a lot. You can see it when you put it on lift and try to open a back door. You CANT. I went with the 6 point and everything about the car handling characteristics changed for the better in lateral acceleration, off the line acceleration, and hard cornering. Anything you can do to any car to stiffen the chassis, to help prevent flexing on hard accelerations, and hard cornering makes for a more compliant car.

There is hundreds of thousands of pages of research available in your library or internet on improving handing of a car how to's. And no its not a weight thing. Weight actually makes it worse. Have you ever noticed a road course car build? The suspension is all Aluminum with Aluminum or Magnesium chassis cradle. This would the include the uprights, and knuckles.

Both cars are great, they're just great in different ways. I like each one better than the other in different aspects because they both do different things better. Going much further than that does nothing but piss-off both communities because both communities seem to have a need to feel dominant over the other and that's just not realistic.

As for whether I've driven one with the brace installed, what happens when I say I have? Nothing I say can qualify any statements about it and nothing I say will be objective. I can say it spins just like my un-braced car, but unless our mods were exactly comparable then how do I draw an accurate conclusion? The absolute only way that I could post anything objective would be to buy the bar and do datalogs with/without it because we both know that you're not going to gather data to share with the community. Other traction bar owners in this thread have already stated exactly what I have already said and you couldn't bother with acknowledging those posts, but the second I say anything you blow it out into a huge ordeal and then try to blame me for starting it.

Data > Theory > Opinion. That's the order of precedence and you never seem to be able to be any further left than the farthest right. Do some research into fwd traction bars. Even Piercemotorsports doesn't advertise them as a 'traction bar', and you would think that that would be pretty high on the sales-pitch.

Good man,

1, "other owners" who stated what you have in this thread = ONE PERSON. Above your quote there are THREE that agree with me in terms of benefits in hop/traction. 1<3. Not to mention other reviews all over the forums that say the same. Is it a Focus RS now? No. But it helped with traction. In order for you to be right and therefore me saying I have more traction being simply placebo, it must mean that I am just completely and intentionally lying when I say that I have significantly better traction in before...so you must believe that, but I can assure you I'm not lying and this is not placebo.

2, you have yet to admit it but you keep dodging my question which makes it pretty obvious that you have never driven one of our cars with these mods. For someone who places such an emphasis on data over opinion, you are swinging FAR right in giving the latter without even driving a car with these mods....if that is true, you simply have no idea what you are talking about.

3, assuming the above is true, I will revise your diagram, placing you at the far right:

Data > Theory > Opinion > total BS statements

Again if I am wrong and you have driven one of our cars with these mods installed, forgive me, then my third point here is meaningless. But even if I am right and you are basing your opinion here on ignorance, as I continue to say here and in other threads, we can agree to disagree and it does not make me think less of you or disregard you as a person, because I know that you are very knowledgeable in many aspects of these things and have helped many including myself, and I am grateful for that, being new to the FiST platform and having learned so much from this wonderful community in 5 short months of ownership.

4, you are correct, they do not advertise it as a traction bar nor mention that benefit in their product description. That however does not mean that it does not improve traction. No, wonder woman was not part of the title of the new Superman movie, but she was in the movie. Get it?

5, another thought that relates to my first and fourth points above is this: consider that it is very possible that some people have different mods or more torque than me to not get the benefit of traction from these bars that I am reviewing. it may be that I am getting the benefit because I am at a power level that is just right for the traction gains that these bars provide. Maybe I'm in the "sweet spot". That could even be the reason that the manufacturer did not mention traction as being a benefit, they may have tested it on a car was stock or big turbo power which would make the need for traction either unnecessary (stock) or beyond what these bars can offer (big turbo). So one person could add the bars and say "meh" while another could add them and say "wow!" as I did.

 

[antarctica24]

Good man,

1, "other owners" who stated what you have in this thread = ONE PERSON. Above your quote there are THREE that agree with me in terms of benefits in hop/traction. 1<3. Not to mention other reviews all over the forums that say the same. Is it a Focus RS now? No. But it helped with traction. In order for you to be right and therefore me saying I have more traction being simply placebo, it must mean that I am just completely and intentionally lying when I say that I have significantly better traction in before...so you must believe that, but I can assure you I'm not lying and this is not placebo.

2, you have yet to admit it but you keep dodging my question which makes it pretty obvious that you have never driven one of our cars with these mods. For someone who places such an emphasis on data over opinion, you are swinging FAR right in giving the latter without even driving a car with these mods....if that is true, you simply have no idea what you are talking about.

3, assuming the above is true, I will revise your diagram, placing you at the far right:

Data > Theory > Opinion > total BS statements

Again if I am wrong and you have driven one of our cars with these mods installed, forgive me, then my third point here is meaningless. But even if I am right and you are basing your opinion here on ignorance, as I continue to say here and in other threads, we can agree to disagree and it does not make me think less of you or disregard you as a person, because I know that you are very knowledgeable in many aspects of these things and have helped many including myself, and I am grateful for that, being new to the FiST platform and having learned so much from this wonderful community in 5 short months of ownership.

4, you are correct, they do not advertise it as a traction bar nor mention that benefit in their product description. That however does not mean that it does not improve traction. No, wonder woman was not part of the title of the new Superman movie, but she was in the movie. Get it?

5, another thought that relates to my first and fourth points above is this: consider that it is very possible that some people have different mods or more torque than me to not get the benefit of traction from these bars that I am reviewing. it may be that I am getting the benefit because I am at a power level that is just right for the traction gains that these bars provide. Maybe I'm in the "sweet spot". That could even be the reason that the manufacturer did not mention traction as being a benefit, they may have tested it on a car was stock or big turbo power which would make the need for traction either unnecessary (stock) or beyond what these bars can offer (big turbo). So one person could add the bars and say "meh" while another could add them and say "wow!" as I did.

Jeff
Don't forget dyn085 has to be able to data log using the brace for him to understand it.

 

[dyn085]

Good man,

1, "other owners" who stated what you have in this thread = ONE PERSON. Above your quote there are THREE that agree with me in terms of benefits in hop/traction. 1<3. Not to mention other reviews all over the forums that say the same. Is it a Focus RS now? No. But it helped with traction. In order for you to be right and therefore me saying I have more traction being simply placebo, it must mean that I am just completely and intentionally lying when I say that I have significantly better traction in before...so you must believe that, but I can assure you I'm not lying and this is not placebo.

2, you have yet to admit it but you keep dodging my question which makes it pretty obvious that you have never driven one of our cars with these mods. For someone who places such an emphasis on data over opinion, you are swinging FAR right in giving the latter without even driving a car with these mods....if that is true, you simply have no idea what you are talking about.

3, assuming the above is true, I will revise your diagram, placing you at the far right:

Data > Theory > Opinion > total BS statements

Again if I am wrong and you have driven one of our cars with these mods installed, forgive me, then my third point here is meaningless. But even if I am right and you are basing your opinion here on ignorance, as I continue to say here and in other threads, we can agree to disagree and it does not make me think less of you or disregard you as a person, because I know that you are very knowledgeable in many aspects of these things and have helped many including myself, and I am grateful for that, being new to the FiST platform and having learned so much from this wonderful community in 5 short months of ownership.

4, you are correct, they do not advertise it as a traction bar nor mention that benefit in their product description. That however does not mean that it does not improve traction. No, wonder woman was not part of the title of the new Superman movie, but she was in the movie. Get it?

5, another thought that relates to my first and fourth points above is this: consider that it is very possible that some people have different mods or more torque than me to not get the benefit of traction from these bars that I am reviewing. it may be that I am getting the benefit because I am at a power level that is just right for the traction gains that these bars provide. Maybe I'm in the "sweet spot". That could even be the reason that the manufacturer did not mention traction as being a benefit, they may have tested it on a car was stock or big turbo power which would make the need for traction either unnecessary (stock) or beyond what these bars can offer (big turbo). So one person could add the bars and say "meh" while another could add them and say "wow!" as I did.

1. I've already addressed why wheel hop is not the same as traction, and it's not just another 'version' of traction. It's the rapid change of toe settings due to the forces acted upon the suspension, and I've already stated why this mod would benefit that. Simply bolting it on, however, is not suddenly going to make your alignment good or your tires more sticky. This changes your math

2. I answered it in the response above. Yes, I've driven one. It doesn't make my opinion any less subjective than yours, though.

3. The Nazi's had opinions that they believed in as well but having them didn't make their opinions right.

4. Totally understood, but I would lean more towards them understanding the theories that support their decisions to make the parts.

5. In that case you're saying that you went from having more torque on stage 0 or stage 1 to having less torque on stage 2. Considering how that would affect your opinion of your power in your other thread, I can't imagine you legitimately feeling that way.

Jeff
Don't forget dyn085 has to be able to data log using the brace for him to understand it.

Still mad that it's not a MAF-based tune? Here's a good read by Braden from Cobb. It's on a FoST, but like I've said elsewhere-it's the exact same ECU framework as the FiST.

https://cobbtuning.zendesk.com/hc/en-us/articles/200026104-COBB-Initial-Focus-ST-R-D-Findings

Fwiw, you absolutely can datalog a lack of traction. Recently there have been too many people could care less about actual data collection and evaluation, though.

 

[antarctica24]

1. I've already addressed why wheel hop is not the same as traction, and it's not just another 'version' of traction. It's the rapid change of toe settings due to the forces acted upon the suspension, and I've already stated why this mod would benefit that. Simply bolting it on, however, is not suddenly going to make your alignment good or your tires more sticky. This changes your math

2. I answered it in the response above. Yes, I've driven one. It doesn't make my opinion any less subjective than yours, though.

3. The Nazi's had opinions that they believed in as well but having them didn't make their opinions right.

4. Totally understood, but I would lean more towards them understanding the theories that support their decisions to make the parts.

5. In that case you're saying that you went from having more torque on stage 0 or stage 1 to having less torque on stage 2. Considering how that would affect your opinion of your power in your other thread, I can't imagine you legitimately feeling that way.



Still mad that it's not a MAF-based tune? Here's a good read by Braden from Cobb. It's on a FoST, but like I've said elsewhere-it's the exact same ECU framework as the FiST.

https://cobbtuning.zendesk.com/hc/en-us/articles/200026104-COBB-Initial-Focus-ST-R-D-Findings

Fwiw, you absolutely can datalog a lack of traction. Recently there have been too many people could care less about actual data collection and evaluation, though.

You need to get a life

 

[D-resonant]

100% agree with OP. I rather like the factory suspension tuning. I installed the PM lower 2-point, PM "trunk" brace and mountune's upper brace, separately and in that order, over last seven months. Tested their cumulative effect on the same section of my favorite canyon road. Lower 2-point made the most notable difference. Eliminated the chassis "wiggle" on long sweepers. The other bracing comically causes tricycling more often, up and down driveways.

 

[jeff]

0

1. I've already addressed why wheel hop is not the same as traction, and it's not just another 'version' of traction. It's the rapid change of toe settings due to the forces acted upon the suspension, and I've already stated why this mod would benefit that. Simply bolting it on, however, is not suddenly going to make your alignment good or your tires more sticky. This changes your math

2. I answered it in the response above. Yes, I've driven one. It doesn't make my opinion any less subjective than yours, though.

3. The Nazi's had opinions that they believed in as well but having them didn't make their opinions right.

4. Totally understood, but I would lean more towards them understanding the theories that support their decisions to make the parts.

5. In that case you're saying that you went from having more torque on stage 0 or stage 1 to having less torque on stage 2. Considering how that would affect your opinion of your power in your other thread, I can't imagine you legitimately feeling that way.



Still mad that it's not a MAF-based tune? Here's a good read by Braden from Cobb. It's on a FoST, but like I've said elsewhere-it's the exact same ECU framework as the FiST.

https://cobbtuning.zendesk.com/hc/en-us/articles/200026104-COBB-Initial-Focus-ST-R-D-Findings

Fwiw, you absolutely can datalog a lack of traction. Recently there have been too many people could care less about actual data collection and evaluation, though.

It is nice to finally have a decent discussion with you. Now this is enjoyable.

All points understood, and while we see a few things differently, I think you misunderstood my 5th point. I was saying that traction is not an issue at stock so the bar would theoretically make no noticed difference in that regard. At stage 1/2 it was, and in my case, when the bars were added, it was mostly resolved. Power and torque increased and traction decreased from stock to 1 to 2. Of course we all know this. Hope that clarifies. So when traction became an issue is when I added the bars and traction got better. Big turbo brings more traction issues without a tune to limit torque, so conceivably traction would be more of an issue than ever and the proposed benefit gained from the bars would not be enough to keep traction with all the big turbo power. Of course a tune would limit/resolve that but from what I've read many of the big turbo guys enjoy scorching their tires, and who spends thousands of dollars for power and then pays more for a tune to limit that power? They should be saving that money to pay for new tires. But that's another discussion.

As far as what Antarctica said, despite your unrelated argument about the whole MAF thing, you really are operating on a double standard. You're the one who brought back our intake debate to this thread, so you bringing his debate on the other up here and saying he's uncovering old wounds is exactly what you did. Another double standard, you have said five or six times that i need to prove my opinions with data, yet you completely discount mine and have no data to support it.

Now rabbit trailing myself, I am interested to see what antarcticas dyno results without tune are. I was surprised that someone with so much understanding of tuning as you (I am sincere here and do respect you) would say that hardware adds nothing and the tune brings the power. But as you keep saying data will help with that debate and in our case it is coming quickly.

 

[jeff]

100% agree with OP. I rather like the factory suspension tuning. I installed the PM lower 2-point, PM "trunk" brace and mountune's upper brace, separately and in that order, over last seven months. Tested their cumulative effect on the same section of my favorite canyon road. Lower 2-point made the most notable difference. Eliminated the chassis "wiggle" on long sweepers. The other bracing comically causes tricycling more often, up and down driveways.

Nice! Back on topic!

 

[dyn085]

I'll just comment in red again, le sigh.

0

It is nice to finally have a decent discussion with you. Now this is enjoyable.

All points understood, and while we see a few things differently, I think you misunderstood my 5th point. I was saying that traction is not an issue at stock so the bar would theoretically make no noticed difference in that regard. At stage 1/2 it was, and in my case, when the bars were added, it was mostly resolved. Power and torque increased and traction decreased from stock to 1 to 2. Of course we all know this. Hope that clarifies. So when traction became an issue is when I added the bars and traction got better. Big turbo brings more traction issues without a tune to limit torque, so conceivably traction would be more of an issue than ever and the proposed benefit gained from the bars would not be enough to keep traction with all the big turbo power. Of course a tune would limit/resolve that but from what I've read many of the big turbo guys enjoy scorching their tires, and who spends thousands of dollars for power and then pays more for a tune to limit that power? They should be saving that money to pay for new tires. But that's another discussion.

A big turbo brings less traction issues, at least down low where we currently have traction issues, by adding lag. With torque truncation we can already have as much or as little traction as we want, regardless of turbo installed. Even with the stock turbo I don't have traction issues on acceleration, but that's because I've tuned it that way.

As far as what Antarctica said, despite your unrelated argument about the whole MAF thing, you really are operating on a double standard. You're the one who brought back our intake debate to this thread, so you bringing his debate on the other up here and saying he's uncovering old wounds is exactly what you did. Another double standard, you have said five or six times that i need to prove my opinions with data, yet you completely discount mine and have no data to support it.

No, you are the one that brought the intake discussion into this thread. Again, go re-read post #30 and #32. In post #31 I only said one sentence regarding that thread, and it wasn't expounding on that thread in the slightest. And I knew you were going to go this route with the data, which is why I gave you the hypothetical 'yes' answer in post #59, fully acknowledging that I would not be able to give the objective response you would want to try and coax out. You're definitely a wordsmith, but there's no need to try and spin circles on everything that's already posted and can still be read. Feel free to re-read my posts about the brace; at no time did I tell you to collect a datalog on it. It can be done but you wouldn't know how, and it wouldn't be very easily controlled in order to be evaluated.

Now rabbit trailing myself, I am interested to see what antarcticas dyno results without tune are. I was surprised that someone with so much understanding of tuning as you (I am sincere here and do respect you) would say that hardware adds nothing and the tune brings the power. But as you keep saying data will help with that debate and in our case it is coming quickly.

I already posted a datalog of additional parts installed on the stage 0 (stock emulated) tune. It is becoming wildly clear that that was a waste of time in trying to help explain the way this ECU works because the only ones that want to talk about it have no idea what they're talking about. As negative as that sounds it's not a dig, it's just becoming a hard fact.

 

[Hijinx]

Fwiw, you absolutely can datalog a lack of traction. Recently there have been too many people could care less about actual data collection and evaluation, though.

He's right, you know? VSS can be datalogged. You can log all four wheels independently of you wish.

Proof

 

[jeff]

I'll just comment in red again, le sigh.

Yes we are in 100% agreement about the stock turbo/tuning out traction issues via limiting power/torque angle.

You did bring up the intake before me, as you said above "I only said one sentence regarding that thread" which you said first, and we both know you were dragging that up again.

As I keep saying, you have much to offer and yes some do not understand all you are saying, and that is just how it is. But consider that your opinion about these bars is incorrect. Again I keep saying I had very poor traction. Now I have great traction, I don't understand why you can't just be happy for me and suppose that yes wow they really did help his car and might be great mods for him, yeah maybe you drove a car with these bars a few miles but it had different mods and a different tune than mine, there is simply no way you can say that because you experienced it in a presumably temporary setting that the same mod has not made a significant difference for me who has a different car that the bars have changed for the better. Wow,that was a run on sentence but I'm not gonna fix it.

 

[dyn085]

Yes we are in 100% agreement about the stock turbo/tuning out traction issues via limiting power/torque angle.

You did bring up the intake before me, as you said above "I only said one sentence regarding that thread" which you said first, and we both know you were dragging that up again.

As I keep saying, you have much to offer and yes some do not understand all you are saying, and that is just how it is. But consider that your opinion about these bars is incorrect. Again I keep saying I had very poor traction. Now I have great traction, I don't understand why you can't just be happy for me and suppose that yes wow they really did help his car and might be great mods for him, yeah maybe you drove a car with these bars a few miles but it had different mods and a different tune than mine, there is simply no way you can say that because you experienced it in a presumably temporary setting that the same mod has not made a significant difference for me who has a different car that the bars have changed for the better. Wow,that was a run on sentence but I'm not gonna fix it.

Seems how you can't seem to read the order of the posts, I made a quick multi-quote to help clear it up for you-

You said the same thing on my "Stage 2" thread; I'm not sure why you appear on my threads repeatedly and say that my reviews or impressions of products are unrealistic. ...

Of course I said the same thing in your stage 2 thread....

...Concerning my stage 2 thread and our intake discussion there, I continue to simply point to the evidence. Based on one V-dyno you discount my belief that my CP-E intake brings gains (and that V-dyno even shows that it does bring gains under 6,200 rpms). In contrast, I base my belief in the intake on the following: (1) CP-E data via real dyno runs (2) independent reviewers data via real dyno runs (3) Stratified tuning chiming in and agreeing with me (4) Tune + agreeing with me during my tuning consultation (5) Mitch aka CP-E agreeing with me (or rather I with him) and providing a good bit of experienced and well-documented proof of his claims. #s 2,3,4 above are not manufacturers and do not sell intakes and have nothing to gain by telling me that I need an intake.
...

Oh look, more intake discussion. It doesn't happen very often, but every now and then someone pushes a product so hard that you wonder what kind of kickback they are getting for it. ...

I mean, seriously. None of my two singular posts prior to this said anything about your intake thread. You are the one that dragged it in here, not me. Feel free to go read again them if you would like.

Why are you so busy dragging threads off-topic when you've made so much of a fuss about threads being off-topic? Just like your need to assign blame to who dragged it off-topic, you're dragging it back off-topic in doing so. I'll gladly discuss whatever is posted because I'm not a moderator, but notice the fact that I don't complain that it's off-topic when I do.

If you want me to be happy for you having traction then fine, I'm happy for you. Does that make you feel better?

 

[jeff]

You referred to it when you spoke of people wanting to feel good about spending money on a mod that did nothing.

It seems hard not to believe that that's not what you were talking about after the way you have chased me around on this forum and keep arguing with me and using crude humor and trying to put me down at almost every opportunity. If I am wrong and you were not referring to that, then i am wrong and I accept that. But I would think that any thinking person can look at the tone of our conversations over the last few weeks and see that while I keep trying to build a bridge to you, you keep on in the same manner.

You don't have to be happy for me, that is unimportant. The better thing would be for you to not comment about parts you do not have on your car as if you know more about them than I do having them on my car.

As I keep saying, despite our differences I appreciate the dialog and know that you are a great part of this forum and helpful to many. I think we've said about all there is to be said so how about we get back to topic.

 

[rodmoe]

Looks like this one is done here