Oil information: NOACK and SAPS

[Natedogg]

Just want to add Royal Purple synthetic (not hps) does meet Ford WSS-M2C945-A. With a noack of about 10

Actually, the one I posted is the API licensed "High Performance" oil. I will change it. They use "High Performance" too much in their names.

 

[Natedogg]

I've run Mobil 1 Extended in all three of my VW's (two 1.8Ts and one 2.0T TSI) and never had any issues with carbon buildup. Am I just missing something here? I've never heard of oil causing issues so long as its replaced at the proper mileage and not with Wal-Mart Special.

The 1.8T isn't GDI, so it doesn't count. If you had good luck with M1, stick with it. But even BMW GDI and Audi FSI engines that have had their oil changed regularly at the dealer are very well known to have carbon buildup issues. The 2.0T and 4.2 FSI issues are very well documented as well as the VW FSI (same as Audi 2.0 FSI) and TSI issues.

Audi 2.0 FSI with Meth injection 7500 miles after a cleaning. I don't know what oil was used but you can clearly see the buildup of oil on the valve stem caused by the oil in the valve guides:

 

[jaynometry]

Wait, does this mean that the Redline 5w20 is not good to use with its 30ish mg TEOST? That means it leaves quite a bit of deposits?

 

[Natedogg]

When it gets hot, yes, it has a high chance of caking up.

By the way, the Walmart Supertech Synthetic is generally not that bad. It compares to some of the better oils. I will see if I can find the specs on it. Not sure I would run it in a GDI but it's really not bad.

 

[GreGGo]

I was just using an example. I'm trying to learn more, but these numbers are Greek to me. Haha...

So what are say the top 5 or so oils for GDI engines or are there too many variables?

 

[Natedogg]

Here's the specs on the Supertech 5w-30 Full Synthetic. I am rather impressed.

NOACK - 11.3%
SAPS - 0.92%
TBN - 8.5

The oils seem to be all over the place in different aspects. If I had to choose (and I will eventually):

Full Synthetic:
Amsoil Signature
Pennzoil Platinum (not ultra platinum)
Valvoline Maxlife
Valvoline Synpower, Castrol Edge, Pennzoil Platinum Ultra, Royal Purple, would be a tough call

Blends:
Valvoline durablend
Quaker State enhanced durability
Motorcraft blend

 

[GreGGo]

Okay. I've got 2250 miles right now. Changed at 1500 with Motorcraft Syn Blend. At 5k, I was planning on Mobil 1... But now I am questioning that.

 

[haste]

Okay. I've got 2250 miles right now. Changed at 1500 with Motorcraft Syn Blend. At 5k, I was planning on Mobil 1... But now I am questioning that.

According to Mobil it doesn't matter.

https://mobiloil.com/en/faq/product-faqs

Is it true that new engines need break-in periods using conventional motor oil?

That is a myth. In the past, engine break-in was necessary to remove metal flashing or any other abrasive material left inside the engine after machining, as well as to allow the valves and rings to "seat" properly. Today's engines are built with much tighter tolerances and much improved machining, and under much cleaner conditions compared to the engines of 10 or 20 years ago. Current engine manufacturing technology does not require a break-in period using petroleum-based motor oils.

Pennzoil says the same

http://www.pennzoil.com/learn-about-motor-oil/synthetic-oil/

Myth: You should break in your engine with conventional oil before you start using synthetic oil. Again, there’s no manufacturer we’re aware of that makes this recommendation. Mercedes, Porsche, Corvette, some Cadillacs, Volkswagen, Hyundai and many other manufacturers’ cars come from the factory with synthetic oil.

I changed to full synthetic just after the 5k mile mark. I also went 5w-30 because that is the European spec and I don't much care about saving .2mpg per fill-up.

 

[Natedogg]

While most engines have the primary break-in done at the factory, UOAs of engines that have been switched to synthetic early consistently show a prolonged period of higher than normal iron, copper, brass, aluminum, and other materials that indicate the engine isn't fully broken in for a few thousand miles. Does it matter? Probably not since the most important part of the break-in, seating the rings, is already done for us.

5k to me is a good number to switch. I have switched engines I have built to synthetic at 1500 with no ill effects.

I too have thought about switching to 5w-30 (the 2.0 and 3.5 Ecoboost's use this) but I think during the warranty period, I will stick with 5w-20.

 

[koozy]

I'm still on factory fill. I plan on changing to Pennzoil Platinum 5w-20 with a Motorcraft filter at 5k miles. I will be sending Blackstone a sample of the factory fill for analysis and I will also be cutting open the factory installed filter to see how much the filter has captured. I will share the info/photos when I have them.

 

[Natedogg]

Just updated the Royal Purple SAPS figure since they got back to me. I expected zero response like I have gotten in the past. It's not really bad oil, but for the price there are some other OTS oils that are better.

 

[CanadianGuy]

Just updated the Royal Purple SAPS figure since they got back to me. I expected zero response like I have gotten in the past. It's not really bad oil, but for the price there are some other OTS oils that are better.

Hey great job in persevering for the rest of us.

 

[KKaWing]

Hm... according to this link, Mobil 1 5w20 meets 945-A?

 

[Natedogg]

Oops. I missed that part of the sheet. I only only saw the M2c930 portion. This is why an extra set of eyes is good. Updated the first post.

 

[BrokenSVT]

Thanks for this info. I purchased enough Amsoil product for my first at-home oil change. Went with Amsoil Select 5w20.

 

[BeansNCornbread]

Amsoil is very high SAPS fwiw. That said I've used it for 20kmls in another DI app.

Still from my reading and reasoning higher NOAK might serve DI better.

 

[iso100]

I'm going to make a shared Google Spreadsheet with this information tomorrow. I think it will be easier to compare that way.

 

[Natedogg]

One of the links you posted in the sticky (http://fuelsandlubes.com/digital/fli...ml/page43.html) is referring to volatility in relation to LSPI (low-speed pre-ignition). It states that volatility is not a factor in LSPI, but additives are. Therefore, if the additives are more volatile, they are more likely to cause a precognition event. However, the vapor droplets of oil in the combustion chamber increase the chance of LSPI because they create hot spots, whether it's a low or high NOACK oil. This neither proves or disproves what the industry has been saying about DI and low volatility oils and in fact.

The other article (http://archiwum.inig.pl/INST/nafta-gaz/nafta-gaz/Nafta-Gaz-2014-04-04.pdf) uses examples of port injected engines, with very little data pointing toward GDI engines. While it says "Increasing the high molecular weight and low volatility content of the oil increases deposit formation" it makes no mention of lower molecular weight and low volatility. What is their definition of a "high molecular weight" oil? Using a low molecular weight and high volatility oil sounds good in theory because it creates a fine vapor, but the fact is that oil vapor coming from the PCV runs a high chance of condensing on the walls of the intake manifold and intake ports. The higher the volatility, the more evaporation, the more vapor enters the intake system. This is one research paper and counters what the rest of the industry documents say in regards to oil volatility in GDI engines.

That said I think there is something to be said for a super low volatility oil causing deposits that can't be simply burnt off under higher temperature engine operating conditions (Italian cleaning).

 

[BeansNCornbread]

Keep in mind NOAK is only relevant to what gets past the rings. Not the pcv. My papers stand on their own.

 

[Natedogg]

The NOACK test covers evaporation loss in general, not just past the rings. The point of the PCV is to evacuate oil vapor, fuel vapor, water vapor, and combustion gasses that get past the rings.

http://www.astm.org/Standards/D5800.htm