Motul dctf or 300?

[Business6]

Well as someone who goes from single to triple digits what should work well? RSD is local to me and I can pick these up at a good discount right now with the DCTF being just $17 a quart and the 300 just a few dollars more.

Though I suppose it doesn't really matter and it's more about just getting a better fluid in there than OEM.

 

[M-Sport fan]

There is a whole discussion in the motul 300 thread why so many people have chosen motul 300 over stock fluid (which is also certified btw). The 300 comes highly recommended also from "bob the oil guy" site which do very thorough analysis of these lubricants for their purposes.

At the time of the previous thread, motul DCTF was not certified either (it is now), however having worked with machinery and knowing from personal experience the symptoms of lubricants not performing effectively for long term use, I do not feel comfortable with the oem fluid in my transmission. This is what prompted me to look for a substitute, regardless of whether it's certified or not. The 300 has exceeded my expectations and again it comes highly recommended by those who know their stuff and have no financial ties to the automotive industry.

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FULLY AGREED!

I was just bringing up the certification for those who are worried about Ford turning down a transaxle warranty due to totally un-certified fluid being in there, 100x better than factory or not.
You can bet your life that Ford will do EVERYTHING in their power (as will ALL manufacturers) to deny handing you a $5500.00 assembly, or a $3500.00 rebuild if they can, up to and including doing even trace oil analysis of whatever fluid they find in the defective unit, and then of course have an easy time 'proving' (to satisfy the Magnuson Moss Act in THEIR favor) it 'caused' the failure due to being out of spec.

I was on bitog for almost 10 years, so yes, I know ALL about Gear 300, and it's phenomenal, shear-proof, POE base stock, and GREAT, crazy sky high viscosity index, the very reasons it's in my gearbox as we speak.
I also heard, and took to heart, big 'head honcho' tribologist on that site, MolaKule's stern 'edict' that an ATF, or even an ATF-like fluid such as a DCT, has NO PLACE in a manual gearbox whatsoever, EVER.
(WHY I want to go to an MTF, yes, even one which is HALF the viscosity of the Gear 300.)

I even used the Gear 300 non-limited slip in my limited slip equipped Z28's rear axle, and added the Motorcraft XL-3 friction modifier since this high VI version of Gear 300 we use does not have that already in it.

And YES, it IS great shifting once fully warm in my climate, but I DO worry about the above since this is my ONLY car, and I absolutely CANNOT AFFORD to replace a transaxle on MY dime!

The Ravenol MTF-2 is NO 'slouch' fluid either, with a stout PAO/POE base stock, and the proper friction modifiers to ensure great syncro/blocker ring engagement, and is STILL MUCH MORE shear proof (BOTH mechanical AND heat caused) than any of the DCT fluids out there.

I also will NOT have to ever even think about changing this fluid out for even the most FRIGID, steadily below 10*F winter there could ever be around here, due to clunky, or 'balky' shifting.

 

[neeqness]

FULLY AGREED!

I was just bringing up the certification for those who are worried about Ford turning down a transaxle warranty due to totally un-certified fluid being in there, better or not.
You can bet your life that they will do EVERYTHING in their power (as will ALL manufacturers) to deny handing you a $5500.00 assembly, or a $3500.00 rebuild if they can, up to and including doing even trace oil analysis of whatever fluid they find in the defective unit, and then of course have an easy time 'proving' (to satisfy the Moss-Mag Act in THEIR favor) it 'caused' the failure due to being 'out of spec'.

I was on bitog for almost 10 years, so yes, I know ALL about Gear 300, and it's phenomenal, shear-proof, POE base stock, and GREAT, crazy sky high viscosity index, the very reasons it's in my gearbox as we speak.
I also heard, and took to heart, big honcho tribologist MolaKule's 'edict' that an ATF, or even an ATF-like fluid such as a DCT, has NO PLACE in a manual gearbox whatsoever, EVER, on that site. (WHY I want to go to an MTF, yes, even one which is HALF the viscosity of the Gear 300.)
I even used the Gear 300 non-limited slip in my limited slip equipped Z28's rear axle, and added the Motorcraft XL-3 friction modifier since this high VI version of Gear 300 we use does not have that in it.

And YES, it IS great shifting once fully warm in my climate, but I DO worry about the above, since this is my ONLY car, and I absolutely CANNOT AFFORD to replace a transaxle on MY dime!

The Ravenol MTF-2 is NO 'slouch' fluid either, with a stout PAO/POE base stock, and the proper friction modifiers to ensure great syncro/blocker ring engagement, and is STILL MUCH MORE shear proof (BOTH mechanical AND heat caused) than any of the DCT fluids out there.

I also will NOT have to even think about changing this fluid out for even the most FRIGID, steady below 10*F winter there could ever be around here, due to clunky, 'balky', or recalcitrant shifting.

Understood. We are in agreement here. [emoji106]

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[KnockOff]

FULLY AGREED!

I was just bringing up the certification for those who are worried about Ford turning down a transaxle warranty due to totally un-certified fluid being in there, 100x better than factory or not.
You can bet your life that Ford will do EVERYTHING in their power (as will ALL manufacturers) to deny handing you a $5500.00 assembly, or a $3500.00 rebuild if they can, up to and including doing even trace oil analysis of whatever fluid they find in the defective unit, and then of course have an easy time 'proving' (to satisfy the Magnuson Moss Act in THEIR favor) it 'caused' the failure due to being out of spec.

I was on bitog for almost 10 years, so yes, I know ALL about Gear 300, and it's phenomenal, shear-proof, POE base stock, and GREAT, crazy sky high viscosity index, the very reasons it's in my gearbox as we speak.
I also heard, and took to heart, big 'head honcho' tribologist on that site, MolaKule's stern 'edict' that an ATF, or even an ATF-like fluid such as a DCT, has NO PLACE in a manual gearbox whatsoever, EVER.
(WHY I want to go to an MTF, yes, even one which is HALF the viscosity of the Gear 300.)

I even used the Gear 300 non-limited slip in my limited slip equipped Z28's rear axle, and added the Motorcraft XL-3 friction modifier since this high VI version of Gear 300 we use does not have that already in it.

And YES, it IS great shifting once fully warm in my climate, but I DO worry about the above since this is my ONLY car, and I absolutely CANNOT AFFORD to replace a transaxle on MY dime!

The Ravenol MTF-2 is NO 'slouch' fluid either, with a stout PAO/POE base stock, and the proper friction modifiers to ensure great syncro/blocker ring engagement, and is STILL MUCH MORE shear proof (BOTH mechanical AND heat caused) than any of the DCT fluids out there.

I also will NOT have to ever even think about changing this fluid out for even the most FRIGID, steadily below 10*F winter there could ever be around here, due to clunky, or 'balky' shifting.

Could an oil that was a lil thick really cause a transmission failure?

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[M-Sport fan]

^^^Possibly, if it did not allow the synchros or blocker rings to engage properly, or at the correct speeds according to engineering design, because it had the wrong type of friction modifier to facilitate this engagement, or was way too viscous to let these components react quickly enough for good engagement.

Or if it contained the wrong type of additives, like too much of the extreme pressure (EP) additives used in all GL-5 rated gear oils.

75W-90 gear oils are not just a "lil" thicker than the (thinner) MTFs or DCTs, they are fully TWICE the viscosity @100*C (~6.8 to 7.5 cST @100*C vs. ~14.5 to 16.5 cST @100*C).

 

[neeqness]

^^^Possibly, if it did not allow the synchros or blocker rings to engage properly, or at the correct speeds according to engineering design, because it had the wrong type of friction modifier to facilitate this engagement, or was way too viscous to let these components react quickly enough for good engagement.

Or if it contained the wrong type of additives, like too much of the extreme pressure (EP) additives used in all GL-5 rated gear oils.

75W-90 gear oils are not just a "lil" thicker than the (thinner) MTFs or DCTs, they are fully TWICE the viscosity @100*C (~6.8 to 7.5 cST @100*C vs. ~14.5 to 16.5 cST #100*C).

You make it seem like the 300 could cause a transmission failure when it seems more likely (especially judging by the earlier FiSTs that have had transmission troubles) that the oem fluid will cause transmission problems.

First of all, 75w90 is fairly standard as far as gear oils go. Technically, it is not that the 300 is thicker than normal but really that the oem fluid, and it's specs, are thinner than normal. Secondly, one of the main reasons for the thin oem fluid is not because they are "so awesome" (yes I'm being sarcastic here) at lubricating but because thinner transmission fluids help increase fuel economy. Understandable as this helps to keep their economy car competitive with the competition. To be fair, I doubt Ford is the only manufacturer heading in this direction.

As long as the fluid does it's job effectively, I'm all for increased fuel economy. Unfortunately, it seems the oem fluid really pushes that boundary between increased fuel economy and proper lubrication for the long term of the transmission. The manufacturer is only obligated to fulfill their warranties to our vehicles within a limited time. It is not so surprising then to me when I hear about people having troubles with their vehicles after the warranty has ended and having seen first hand the lubricating properties of the oem fluid, I would rather not have this issue either. Especially since I do not drive my FiST "like a grandma".

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[Xaendeau]

I am swapping the stock fluid for Motul Multi DCTF. I did a few weekends of research, and this was the best choice for me. The fluid has good properties and the guys at bobistheoilguy seemed to like it as well. I love the way my transmission shifts. I'd like to keep it this way.

Ford swapped to thicker fluids to hide gear whine in the MT-82s on the early 5.0 mustangs. The thicker fluid caused way more issues than they solved. Getrag called for the thinner fluid, and the TSB fix was to put the Ford DCTF in the 6 speed MT-82s. Thinner fluids do also have much better cooling properties, due to higher flow rate, on the surfaces they cover.

Folks use this Motul stuff to replace the fluid in tracked GTR/R35s, Porsche PDKs, and Lambos. Those guys can easily burn up the stock fluid on the track. I think I'll be alright with my little 1.6 and MRX turbo with the Motul Multi DCTF. It is frankly over-engineered for our purposes, good news everyone!

I see most manual transmissions going the way modern engines have, better oil delivery and flow with a thinner fluid. Technically a dual-clutch is just two computer controller 3-speed manual transmissions. Lot of things have changed over the years for manuals. Old school American manual transmissions took extremely heavy gear oil...up until the 80s or so? Someone would have to chime in that knows more. Hell, F1 has been using extremely thin oils for years, it just depends on the specific application. If Getrag calls for it, I'll happily oblige.

 

[Volumetrik]

FULLY AGREED!

I was just bringing up the certification for those who are worried about Ford turning down a transaxle warranty due to totally un-certified fluid being in there, 100x better than factory or not.
You can bet your life that Ford will do EVERYTHING in their power (as will ALL manufacturers) to deny handing you a $5500.00 assembly, or a $3500.00 rebuild if they can, up to and including doing even trace oil analysis of whatever fluid they find in the defective unit, and then of course have an easy time 'proving' (to satisfy the Magnuson Moss Act in THEIR favor) it 'caused' the failure due to being out of spec.

I was on bitog for almost 10 years, so yes, I know ALL about Gear 300, and it's phenomenal, shear-proof, POE base stock, and GREAT, crazy sky high viscosity index, the very reasons it's in my gearbox as we speak.
I also heard, and took to heart, big 'head honcho' tribologist on that site, MolaKule's stern 'edict' that an ATF, or even an ATF-like fluid such as a DCT, has NO PLACE in a manual gearbox whatsoever, EVER.
(WHY I want to go to an MTF, yes, even one which is HALF the viscosity of the Gear 300.)

I even used the Gear 300 non-limited slip in my limited slip equipped Z28's rear axle, and added the Motorcraft XL-3 friction modifier since this high VI version of Gear 300 we use does not have that already in it.

And YES, it IS great shifting once fully warm in my climate, but I DO worry about the above since this is my ONLY car, and I absolutely CANNOT AFFORD to replace a transaxle on MY dime!

The Ravenol MTF-2 is NO 'slouch' fluid either, with a stout PAO/POE base stock, and the proper friction modifiers to ensure great syncro/blocker ring engagement, and is STILL MUCH MORE shear proof (BOTH mechanical AND heat caused) than any of the DCT fluids out there.

I also will NOT have to ever even think about changing this fluid out for even the most FRIGID, steadily below 10*F winter there could ever be around here, due to clunky, or 'balky' shifting.

Thanks for all the useful information you post !

I am indecisive between the Motul 300, Multi DCTF or the Ravenol MTF-3 you seemed to like in another thread. The thing is that in Montreal we have really cold winters. Having -20f winters is pretty common here, for example in early January, I had a -32c (-25.6f) cold start morning which was quite frightening because the car Idled at almost 2k rpm for 2-3 minutes.

We also have the opposite ! It can get to 80-100f summers here, in fact 2 years ago there it was 40c for almost two weeks.

What would do you think would be best ? Thanks again

 

[M-Sport fan]

You make it seem like the 300 could cause a transmission failure when it seems more likely (especially judging by the earlier FiSTs that have had transmission troubles) that the oem fluid will cause transmission problems.

First of all, 75w90 is fairly standard as far as gear oils go. Technically, it is not that the 300 is thicker than normal but really that the oem fluid, and it's specs, are thinner than normal. Secondly, one of the main reasons for the thin oem fluid is not because they are "so awesome" (yes I'm being sarcastic here) at lubricating but because thinner transmission fluids help increase fuel economy. Understandable as this helps to keep their economy car competitive with the competition. To be fair, I doubt Ford is the only manufacturer heading in this direction.

As long as the fluid does it's job effectively, I'm all for increased fuel economy. Unfortunately, it seems the oem fluid really pushes that boundary between increased fuel economy and proper lubrication for the long term of the transmission. The manufacturer is only obligated to fulfill their warranties to our vehicles within a limited time. It is not so surprising then to me when I hear about people having troubles with their vehicles after the warranty has ended and having seen first hand the lubricating properties of the oem fluid, I would rather not have this issue either. Especially since I do not drive my FiST "like a grandma".

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Yes, given, but I am NOT advocating for the OEM (or ANY DCT fluids for that matter), nor against the Gear 300 (although I DO think that many of the other GL-5 gear oils do contain way too high a concentration of EP additives for a {modern, synchromesh/blocker ring engagement} gearbox, save for RACING 'dog ring' engagement boxes, or sequentials).

I am simply choosing something 'in between', which is just about as shear-proof, and 'protective' as Gear 300 despite being about half the actual viscosity, has the proper friction modifiers to enable great shifting, and contains little to no EP additives being a GL-4 rated fluid specifically made for modern manual gearboxes.

 

[M-Sport fan]

Thanks for all the useful information you post !

I am indecisive between the Motul 300, Multi DCTF or the Ravenol MTF-3 you seemed to like in another thread. The thing is that in Montreal we have really cold winters. Having -20f winters is pretty common here, for example in early January, I had a -32c (-25.6f) cold start morning which was quite frightening because the car Idled at almost 2k rpm for 2-3 minutes.

We also have the opposite ! It can get to 80-100f summers here, in fact 2 years ago there it was 40c for almost two weeks.

What would do you think would be best ? Thanks again

IF I lived inside the Arctic Circle, I would probably go with the MTF-3.

I personally am OCD enough to think about using the Ravenol MTF-3 for the late fall to early spring, and then changing it out for the MTF-2 for the late spring to early fall seasons.
As it is, I will probably just go with the MTF-2 YEAR 'ROUND, and I do believe it has enough of a viscosity index to be able to handle YOUR ambient temp ranges/swings there in 'Ville-Marie'.

 

[HardBoiledEgg]

I'm back to report that I swapped to Motul DCTF after 23k with Motul 300 and I should have done it sooner!


From first drive it was night and day. Did over 400 miles since I changed it last night and wow. It's like butter


I also have the boomba ultimate shift kit adjusted to full reduction and it smoothened it so much


I used to have the 2j racing solid mount and shifting was even more direct but it was way too rough as a daily. Once I get a new RMM my shift package will be complete

 

[chicagoslick]

Was there ever a consensus on which to get? I live in Indy and was planning on getting Motul DCTF, but after rereading this thread numerous times it becomes confusing on the best one to get.

thanks,

 

[XanRules]

What's everyone's fluid looking like when they drain it? A known issue on the early BRZs (my last car) was that the fluid was FULL of break-in metal from the factory and people routinely changed it at the same time as their first oil change.

 

[CGLENN27]

Was there ever a consensus on which to get? I live in Indy and was planning on getting Motul DCTF, but after rereading this thread numerous times it becomes confusing on the best one to get.

thanks,

I second this...

 

[M-Sport fan]

What's everyone's fluid looking like when they drain it? A known issue on the early BRZs (my last car) was that the fluid was FULL of break-in metal from the factory and people routinely changed it at the same time as their first oil change.

^^^This is EXACTLY WHY I dumped the factory fill @~2K miles, and installed the Gear 300.

IF I remember correctly, it was not all too metallic shiny, but I was still glad to get it out of the B6.

I am going to use the Ravenol MTF-2 next change this late spring (just waiting to order it along with their oil from Blauparts on one order to get the free shipping).

 

[XanRules]

^^^This is EXACTLY WHY I dumped the factory fill @~2K miles, and installed the Gear 300.

IF I remember correctly, it was not all too metallic shiny, but I was still glad to get it out of the B6.

I am going to use the Ravenol MTF-2 next change this late spring (just waiting to order it along with their oil from Blauparts on one order to get the free shipping).

Cool. I may switch the gear oil out at my next oil change, then.

 

[neeqness]

Was there ever a consensus on which to get? I live in Indy and was planning on getting Motul DCTF, but after rereading this thread numerous times it becomes confusing on the best one to get.

thanks,

If you are unsure which one to get, it seems to be a personal preference thing. The 300 is noticeably thicker than the oem/dctf. Generally, if you are happy with how the stock fluid feels overall then get the DCTF. Otherwise, if you feel the oem fluid is somewhat thin and/or the gear noise is a problem, then the 300 might work better for you.



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[chicagoslick]

I think the factory shifting is a little bit notchy in first and reverse. Sometimes it's difficult to get into gear. I would like a fluid that makes shifting easier. Dont get me wrong the transmission is pretty good, but if shifting can be improved by a fluid change I would welcome it.

Thanks

 

[chicagoslick]

I ended up ordering the Motul DCTF and will report back...

 

[CGLENN27]

I ended up ordering the Motul DCTF and will report back...

I will be interested to hear your results. We obviously live in the same place so it will be interesting to see how it performs when we inevitably have a 75 degree day and then a 35 degree day.