More downforce, any experience with this wing extension?

[RAAMaudio]

Posted here because this is at least 90% about making my car faster and only about 10% about how it looks.

It seems a bit tall, most wicker bills are about 1/2" but like my last race car I could slide in one from 1/4 up to 1" if needed. Since this is more vertical than the MT extensions, which I was informed where for looks, not downforce, why I would not use them.....it will have far more effect but could be to agresive as well.

I have the triple R splitter on the way and will tweak it a bit to ensure doing what I need including a good sized under tray most likely.

My car will be quite fast on track so I am looking for the right mods to help it stick more in the corners and this is the only other option I have seen so far. I am not into adding a giant wing, this is a street track car and barely fits into my toyhauler trailer, I would never run a big wing on a car on the street (I had one once but it was on the street to events only a few times a year, there and back, usually on a trailer though)

My other option it is make a jig and use my plunge router to cut a slot in the rear top of the stock wing and insert an ABS lip, vertical, and glue it in place which is a pretty serious time consuming project to do a great job on but it would be subtle, effective, no cost as have the materials from other projects, barely any weight......

Any info would be greatly appreciated

 

[94Gt5.0]

I think any gain from that would be so negligible that you'd never notice it on the track. The majority of aero-gear doesn't have much benefit under 100mph, which I can't see the FiST doing as an average speed on most tracks anyway.

Just my .02

 

[onederer]

I think any gain from that would be so negligible that you'd never notice it on the track. The majority of aero-gear doesn't have much benefit under 100mph, which I can't see the FiST doing as an average speed on most tracks anyway.

Just my .02

pretty much what this dude said.

Unless the company that makes this or any other off the shelf aero parts can show CFD models and wind tunnel data proving when and where the DF is made, I'd say these things are purely for looks.

That said, I like the way that it looks.

 

[RAAMaudio]

I do plan to be over 100 on some corners but not many, the DF is only needed on corners but the majority are going to be well under that obviously.

Another option would be to have a removable wing with some flat but permanent plates to mount it to and put on a serious wing for the track only.

No offense meant in the least but is your observation from actual race work, aero study, or just something you have heard?

I have used quite a bit of aero gear and have found improvements at much lower speeds but much bigger elements.

This is not a wing, it is more of a wicker bill and those can be very effective on wing and might help on what we have which is not a wing as not open on the bottom side, more of a body extension to help high speed stability and reduce drag.

I think the car just needs something there to tie the styling together, if can aid the downforce and make it look better, in my opinion, at the same time, then great.

When I bring the car back down off the lift I am going to look again at my idea to cut the slot and make an ABS wicker bill as it would be just as effective, if any real gain, not show up much but look nice done right and weight practically nothing.

 

[RAAMaudio]

I actually like it enough to want it even if very little gain but I hardly ever do such things.....hmmmmmm.......

I fully understand about doing the aero work and the first thing I asked about this and the MT units was about such info and neither had any, said they were for style and I like this much better. It is pretty obvious the MT will do nothing or such a tiny amount it would be hard to measure but this is far more aggressive and it will have an effect but it could also be purely or mostly to induce drag, totally opposite of real performance.

 

[RAAMaudio]

I am going to have to do some thinking, digging, etc....on one of the cars I built I was fortunate enough to converse with an F1 aero engineer into the cars we had and he did some free design work for some custom stuff a few members were doing, I had not gotten that far when I decided I did not need a 600HP, 2300lb, $100k M3 build in my retirement years.

(I have mentioned more than once my high dollar builds, that is history, money all gone, retired, I am totally happy with a very well modded and sorted FiST though, absolutely and probably more so looking at the bigger picture of life on the road soon. I just sold a forged LS I could of easily put into the 318ti I was building and make a monster out of it but I drove the FiST and fell in love with it and glad I did

 

[94Gt5.0]

I have no experience in in anything automotive related, I'll just keep moving.

 

[MKVIIST]

Rick, Ford already did the research for you. Here's the spoiler you need lol.

 

[onederer]

I do plan to be over 100 on some corners but not many, the DF is only needed on corners but the majority are going to be well under that obviously.

Another option would be to have a removable wing with some flat but permanent plates to mount it to and put on a serious wing for the track only.

No offense meant in the least but is your observation from actual race work, aero study, or just something you have heard?

I have used quite a bit of aero gear and have found improvements at much lower speeds but much bigger elements.

This is not a wing, it is more of a wicker bill and those can be very effective on wing and might help on what we have which is not a wing as not open on the bottom side, more of a body extension to help high speed stability and reduce drag.

I think the car just needs something there to tie the styling together, if can aid the downforce and make it look better, in my opinion, at the same time, then great.

When I bring the car back down off the lift I am going to look again at my idea to cut the slot and make an ABS wicker bill as it would be just as effective, if any real gain, not show up much but look nice done right and weight practically nothing.

Not sure if the questions were directed to my post, but here goes...
My observation is based on all of the above, the something that I heard is from a former Aerodynamicist for Lola, Reynard and Swift racing respectively. And was directed towards the original question of down force and the image of the Wicker shown. That lil guy might do something but at the speeds that these cars see on most (not all) tracks it is likely to me nil. As for the aero guy, when I was looking for aero bits for my Subaru he said that most off the shelf aero is good for making a car look "good", and usually even better at creating lift rather than the more sought after DF.

Lotus did loads of work on the Exige to create about 100lbs of DF with a flat underbody, functional splitter and a revised rear wing profile.
A much larger splitter and under tray are just the beginning for this little car. And it can be done for cheap too! It just won't look that good.
Best of luck to ya!

 

[RAAMaudio]

Thanks, quantifiable info is more valuable than hearsay and that is what I was after so I guess if I do it the looks would be the only real reason but I do like it and it seems to just need something there.

The Rally one is a bit much for me and my wife, I showed it to her yesterday and she about gagged and likes car mods

I am well aware that most aftermarket parts are there to make money more than anything else, not all, just most, many hurt far more than help.

I spent a great deal of time planning the aero on my Ducted underbody, custom wing with uprights out of the fenders, wing high and far back, flushed everything possible, E46 CSL nose on an E36 as longer and more rounded, tucked mirrors, trunk floor removed and dual element adjustable massive diffuser designed.....

I know that little element would not do much but perhaps when really hauling arse, I think this car is going to be a bit faster than some may realize, it just might be enough to save my arse if going just a bit to fast but other than that, may as well be a go fast sticker or an air brake, which it may.

But, it might aid in letting air release from the wing and increase top speed a bit, such things can be made for that but I sure would not know.

I guess I could tape on some long yarn and use a camera to see what is going on back there.

I will just have the Triple R splitter and working on undertray ideas, including a ducted one like the C6 World Challenge body I had made used that had 50 hours of wind tunnel testing on just the undertray. I have it in my head, dimensions and all.

I use Alumalite for race splitters as cheap and easy to work with. I have a full sheet on hand to play with if I wish to do so and might make a quick disconnect one to go on the bottom of the T/R.

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GT, I do not know your history, not into race cars, aero, etc, as stated no offense meant, I would and have asked many including the guy on the forum I found out after asking that he was an active F1 engineer and he was not offended that I asked.

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The net is full of experts but most are more a smuckspert and I have fallen into that a bit myself by being so passionate abut this stuff I got a bit carried away.

I have also been severely misled but pros even with a proven history.

 

[RAAMaudio]

What I am saying about the aero stuff I have worked on is I have a good understanding of it but not all by any means, I learn from others and always ask, research, use prior knowledge, etc....I was hoping somebody had some real world experience on this particular car with that particular mod or something quite similar.

Maybe I just wanted to hear what I knew is not really going to happen, I just like the part and always talk about performance first......so want to justify a part that might not give much, if any....

One thing for certain, if it reduced performance in one way more than it enhanced it in another, I would never use it!

I better get back to welding the rear axle flanges.

 

[iso100]

I'm thinking it would be more of a lift killer (spoiler) than something that actually generates any kind of downforce. The shape of the car in profile actually generates a bit of lift so the factory spoiler serves to spoil the flow and destroy a bit of the lift generated. The extensions you posted the photo of are likely just cosmetic.

 

[RAAMaudio]

That makes perfect sense, the profile is an inverted wing so it would generate lift.

I need to consider what vortex generators would do instead......I need to order a bunch for my toyhauler trailer so I might get few extra to play with.....

Not awake enough to contemplate the effects right now, long hard day yesterday and did not sleep well, dogs kept waking me up.

 

[iso100]

It's a fine line between the intended downforce/lift killing effect and increased drag.

 

[RAAMaudio]

I agree, just not well studied in this, why I have to ask

 

[re-rx7]

That makes perfect sense, the profile is an inverted wing so it would generate lift.

I need to consider what vortex generators would do instead......I need to order a bunch for my toyhauler trailer so I might get few extra to play with.....

Not awake enough to contemplate the effects right now, long hard day yesterday and did not sleep well, dogs kept waking me up.

Hell of an idea. A vortex Generator would help with the roof to spoiler transition.

 

[BRGT350]

I wish 3dCarbon made the Gurney flap as a seperate piece that could be added to our existing spoilers instead of having to buy a complete new spoiler and have it painted to match. If was a seperate part, I would have it by now. I don't see it doing much, but don't see it hurting either. I like it way more than the spoiler extensions that I have seen from other companies.

For real downforce, I would go with the S2000 rear wing that ACP/Team O'Neil uses on the Rally America ST. It isn't nearly as gastly looking on a stock bodied Fiesta. The GRC/WRC wing is just too massive for a non wide body race/rally car. Couple that with a splitter, under tray, and diffuser for some serious downforce with minimal drag.

 

[RAAMaudio]

I thought the 3D did mount directly to our existing wing.

I would only get it if it did, I will check that out, thanks

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Is the wing shown on the back of this car the S2000 wing you are referring to?

I found a few more pictures, I will look into it, I could make it fit out stock wing and be a quick release as not needed on the street, etc.....

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Not much room to build a real diffuser unless cut off some of the spare tire well, which I have done on other cars but I need it for the audio system(quick release), battery, etc....if I had more time I could cut out the whole rear floor and make a new one with space for the battery, washer bottle, audio, tools, etc....and make a really good diffuser.

For now I am thinking of just sanding off the back of the rear grill to let trapped air out.

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If I do add an undertray I will make it ducted to the wheel wells.

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Thanks,
Rick

 

[RAAMaudio]

I searched a bunch and no luck finding the S2000 wing for sale, any help would be greatly appreciated

 

[BRGT350]

Yep, that is the MSport S2000 rear wing that is used on the Rally America ST. I have a bad feeling it is crazy expensive. Team O'Neil is your best bet since they sell and prep MSport Fiestas.

I could be wrong about 3dCarbon, but when I was looking on their site, the spoiler with gurney flap is all one piece and not a seperate part. It was earlier this year when I looked at it.

A good undertray, splitter, and diffuser is never easy to get right. I was playing around a few designs on my Mustang for a splitter and diffuser, but there is always something in the way.