More downforce, any experience with this wing extension?

[Dr. Apex]

Rick, where do I find this Wicker? I want bad!! Not concerned with downforce, it just looks great!!

 

[RAAMaudio]

Modbargains sells them

 

[Dr. Apex]

Thanks!! $300......ouch.

 

[RAAMaudio]

And it may hurt more than help, I had a great talk about it today with a very experienced race shop owner. I would need to do some major surgery to the stock "wing" before using it.


I am going to see what the S2000 rally wing costs but will test before I do anything as I have already made alignment changes in the rear that might induce understeer a bit so I might not want or need more downforce.

 

[meFiSTo]

Personally, I don't think that any of the spoiler setups do much beyond reducing drag (at best). I do think that a proper wing can have real aero effects (potentially good and bad). I put a mild APR wing and custom splitter combination on my old SVT Focus after adding a Powerworks supercharger. We did not do any real aero tuning and both were relatively mild devices (splitter went back about 14 inches), but I do think that combination had a stabilizing effect in high speed sweepers and in one off camber downhill WOT turn/short straight at Pacific Raceways. The car would get a little light and tend to squirm heading down into a stout braking zone before the changes. After adding these bits, the car certainly seemed more stable in the same sequence and seemed to hold more speed in long high-speed turns. Really, we're talking about a few seconds overall tops on any given lap (and that's with unofficial in-car cam timing as it was all HPDE stuff), but I did like the improved sense of stability.

Here's a photo of the setup:

 

[-Callum-]

Sitech Racing over here in the U.k have a very large wing on the back of their st, not sure how effective this is and if it would make any noticible difference, however theirs is running 385bhp if I remember correctly and is used for the time attack series racing.

 

[stuntdoogie]

Sitech Racing over here in the U.k have a very large wing on the back of their st, not sure how effective this is and if it would make any noticible difference, however theirs is running 385bhp if I remember correctly and is used for the time attack series racing.

That is so ugly but if it works it works i guess.

 

[RAAMaudio]

I now have the Triple R splitter but modded it and have a full undertray going back to the crossmember and a bit of a Guerney Flap/mount for it. I talked to the race shop manager at the track that takes care of all the school and many other race cars, big race shop, he loved the work I did on that but looked at the stock wing and with the multiple lips and openings said it would probably cause more harm than good adding anything to it and I might not need a wing at all but if I do detached, taller, wing would be needed. He also got to drive my car around a bit and loved it as he loves the stock Fiesta cars as well

So, no wing for me for now at least.

 

[razorlab]

That looks like a side ladder from a camper van.

 

[RAAMaudio]

It looks to be about 3-4 times more massive than that wing needs, it is rather a small wing, I had a GT500 for one of my track cars, GT300 on another, that one looks smaller than the GT200 almost. I also had an even more serious wing for the last track car I was building, custom element, none had that much structure, not even close, to carry all the load needed and on much faster cars.

 

[D1JL]

How about building an under car rear airfoil diffuser? (I want one)



Dave

 

[RAAMaudio]

I am considering it, at the minium I will open up the rear grill like I did the front one sand off the back then then trim them all by hand, it would let trapped air out, not a bad thing to do

If I build a diffuser I will probably cut out the bottom, rearward, part of the tire well at an angle and make the new bottom the top of the diffuser, I have done something similar but far more intense before.

 

[Pete]

Ive had the spoiler on my car for 4 months now and side by side comparisons to stock and the 3d carbon is way more aggresive. It isnt just a little lip but the whole rake of the spoiler is a different angle. Made the car slide less on 40+ mph turns I love it, and I painted it black using rattle cans and it came out as a nice contrast to my green envy fiesta

 

[meFiSTo]

I now have the Triple R splitter but modded it and have a full undertray going back to the crossmember and a bit of a Guerney Flap/mount for it. I talked to the race shop manager at the track that takes care of all the school and many other race cars, big race shop, he loved the work I did on that but looked at the stock wing and with the multiple lips and openings said it would probably cause more harm than good adding anything to it and I might not need a wing at all but if I do detached, taller, wing would be needed. He also got to drive my car around a bit and loved it as he loves the stock Fiesta cars as well

So, no wing for me for now at least.

My splitter was basically just a kind of "D" shaped piece of very stout aluminum that was secured with little "L" brackets to a cannibalized donor RoadRace Gear air dam and then bolted to the radiator support. It was pretty stout, otherwise plain; just a dam and a plate with some lip. We took out the fog lamps to help with ventilation to an added oil cooler and a power steering cooler frankensteined from a automatic Focus tranny cooler setup. Anyway, sure seems like when you go down this path more adjustments just keep popping up. We did the splitter first. The wing came about 18 months later.

It looks to be about 3-4 times more massive than that wing needs, it is rather a small wing, I had a GT500 for one of my track cars, GT300 on another, that one looks smaller than the GT200 almost. I also had an even more serious wing for the last track car I was building, custom element, none had that much structure, not even close, to carry all the load needed and on much faster cars.

My APR wing (I think it was a GT200, but don't recall and can't find any paperwork) was attached with two little stock brackets. The main thing was to get it up into clear air. I think it was up high enough (barely), but I was not looking for huge downforce -- just enough to help stabilize the thing. These cars (my SVT Focus before and now the Fiesta) don't need (can't stand) that much force with anything close to stock power. I think that car posted above with the heavier mounting setup sounds like it was making a lot of HP (385 is a lot in my book for this car), but that does still look like overkill. When I was hunting for my wing before, I found some images of a Honda setup at the APR site that looked very similar.

A couple images from that posting:

Man, I'm just not going down that path again. I think I'll just dial back a little bit and enjoy the ride!

 

[D1JL]

I have an under car air foil defuse from another car that worked great and it could be adapted to the FiST.
I just wish I had a local fiberglass guy to do the work (free).




Dave

 

[BRGT350]

Ive had the spoiler on my car for 4 months now and side by side comparisons to stock and the 3d carbon is way more aggresive. It isnt just a little lip but the whole rake of the spoiler is a different angle. Made the car slide less on 40+ mph turns I love it, and I painted it black using rattle cans and it came out as a nice contrast to my green envy fiesta

You are going to need some serious speed to make the spoiler do anything, and I would doubt those speeds could be obtained on the street.

I played around with a few wing/spoiler options on my ZX3 and found they made no difference on the track. The cornering speeds weren't high enough on the tracks that I ran the car on. I had run the wing and spoiler with a front splitter to balance the car, but neither made any difference on the stop watch. It takes some serious aerodynamic parts to work on a car below 100mph. An undertray, splitter, diffuser, and wing all working together would surely make a difference at anything greater than 60mph. I just don't see the 3dCarbon spoiler making any significant difference on its own. That doesn't change the fact that I really like how it looks, I just question the ability of it to actually spoil any lift, which is what a spoiler is designed to do.

 

[RAAMaudio]

Thanks for the posts

I started this thread just to see if anybody had done any serious aero work on the car, not just bolting on stuff but actually based on proper engineering, real race experience, etc....much appreciated info here though I wish we had an aero expert on board like I had on my last car build, free advice from a real engineer that worked full time in racing....but still great to get help in anyway possible


I agree that it takes a lot of speed to need a rear wing, a spoiler extension on our stock "wing" might help a tiny bit at very high speeds but not many race tracks have corners that fast. Even a real wing needs some speed unless it is huge but the drag is not worth the penalty.

I found the GT200 worked great on my TC but the car was very well developed and very quick, I was able to come out of Witchcraft at MMP at 110 MPH but then had a hard getting lined back up properly for the Attitudes. After I stopped running that car and I watched a race on TV and noted the Grand Am cars were coming out of there at 105, I realized how capable the car had become but also I was simply going to fast. It was fun but a bit scary as well since my buddy totaled a very well build and fast Audi TT trying to keep up and he is a very good driver, better than me, that makes it one fast Scion! But, not many places have turns that fast.

APR has a 48" wide wing I could get the center mounts made to fit the ribs on the stock Fiesta ST "wing" and only have it on for fast tracks but I am just going to go wingless for now, I have had the car up to 120 and braking into a turn and it was quite stable though I was hard on the brakes. If I run into an issue where I feel I should have one I will probably go that route and strengthen the ribs as needed.

 

[RAAMaudio]

Not sure if I posted this, I do have a big diffuser now, just added a duct to direct air up into the DP area to help pull air out of the engine bay, my version based on advice from a real race shop manager....I will post picks later...it turned out nice

I was going to use the fog lights for brake ducts and have some rounded over port tubes I ordered that slide right in and are perfect for it, removed the washer bottle as well to put a small bottle in the tire well....

With the Triple R splitter shaved on the trailing edge, which they all should be, to flush fit the big Alumalite diffuser I now have a sealed slot accross the bottom that is ducted and comes out in front of the tires. I am going to tap into that for the brake ducts and keep the fogs, makes the car more stock looking which I prefer.

Nearly everything I have built is just lowered the right amount for optimal handling and ride, debadged, tinted, nice wheels and tires and not to loud, easier to have fun and get less tickets that way, I do not build to get looked at but my cars and trucks still get more than enough attention.

My silver FiST gets looked at an a lot more comments than I expected, young children to adults even older than my 62 years and I only have 1100 miles on it and live in a small town.

 

[razorlab]

Made the car slide less on 40+ mph turns

I'm sorry, there is no way those things are doing anything at 40mph, 80mph maybe.

 

[BlueBomber]

I do plan to be over 100 on some corners but not many, the DF is only needed on corners but the majority are going to be well under that obviously.

Another option would be to have a removable wing with some flat but permanent plates to mount it to and put on a serious wing for the track only.

No offense meant in the least but is your observation from actual race work, aero study, or just something you have heard?

I have used quite a bit of aero gear and have found improvements at much lower speeds but much bigger elements.

This is not a wing, it is more of a wicker bill and those can be very effective on wing and might help on what we have which is not a wing as not open on the bottom side, more of a body extension to help high speed stability and reduce drag.

I think the car just needs something there to tie the styling together, if can aid the downforce and make it look better, in my opinion, at the same time, then great.

When I bring the car back down off the lift I am going to look again at my idea to cut the slot and make an ABS wicker bill as it would be just as effective, if any real gain, not show up much but look nice done right and weight practically nothing.

I know many don't want to hear my opinion on such matters but most aero does not work at the speeds most of us go.

That said, aero can and DOES work. I had a 1996 MN12 chassis thunderbird, and I wanted to do something different, so I bought a whole bunch of New Old Stock (NOS) NASCAR aero components for the car, I fitted a 55* blade spoiler to the decklid added my supports and whatnot, added a rear diffuser and modified a Nascar nose to mate up to the OEM front bumper mounts and cut out provisions for actual headlamps.

So to get to where I was going with this story, the T-bird would stick like glue in higher-speed (75+mph) sweepers, far beyond what it would normally do and behave.
It looked like absolute hell, but it worked.
To get effective aero you may not always end up with a cosmetically pretty result.