Livernois Motorsports Tune +18hp / +65tq

[dyn085]

I hear this so often -- some variation of "If (Insert Manufacturer) engineers designed the vehicle this way, it must be the right thing to do." Should you always have blind faith?

On a side note, an interesting video about the RS -- 'Pops and burbles' are mentioned several times in this video:

Raj Nair, Group Vice President on the Product Development team for the RS, complained there were not enough 'pops and burbles' and would not sign off on the final version of the RS. You can hear him saying "The engine guys, you know said you're burning too much fuel but I got my pops and burbles."

There's a difference between blind faith and understanding that something can be executed safely with minimal repercussions.

So Livernois is wrong for saying it can damage DI engines?

If we make this a blanket statement then yes. Realistically speaking, this can be done safely and it can not. And what you would be damaging, if the tune was designed in a damaging way, wouldn't be the engine, it would be the turbo and exhaust.

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[fST]

For those who had the Stratified tune prior, did you have a custom tune done by them or just OTS? It may have been posted but I either don't remember or missed it.

 

[OffTheWall503]

OTS, but you can customize it to your preferences and mods when you order it. So technically, they are all custom.

 

[stormcrow]

Having a tune burble pop really bad for the engine? Any solid proof of this?

Bad for the engine? No. The catalytic converter? Yes.

If it was bad then I'm sure Ford wouldn't have it as part of their OEM calibration.

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This was meant to quickly bring the catalytic converter to operating temperature for emissions. It's not meant to be a sustained strategy. This will most certainly cause premature cat failure and potentially damage to the turbo.

So Livernois is wrong for saying it can damage DI engines?

Yes, they were incorrect. They seem to be misunderstand what is used by Ford (and some other tuners) to create the burble. Their response about valve timing missed the mark by a mile.

I also like how they conveniently skipped my questions to them.

OTS, but you can customize it to your preferences and mods when you order it. So technically, they are all custom.

Technically, that's not a custom tune. A custom tune requires data logs and changing tune parameters based on said logs; not simply providing a list of parts you've bolted on.

 

[OffTheWall503]

In this case then sure, it's OTS.

Are parameters not changed based on modifications, though?

 

[dyn085]

This was meant to quickly bring the catalytic converter to operating temperature for emissions. It's not meant to be a sustained strategy. This will most certainly cause premature cat failure and potentially damage to the turbo.

I highly doubt that any tuners are injecting enough fuel to cause damage to either the turbo or cat. This is a strategy used by many tuners on many different platforms, including Ford themselves. Only time will really tell.

Is there the possibility and can it be done wrong? Absolutely, I just don't see that being highly probably. Hell, I've seen far more dangerous things in datalogs by some tuners in this community that will reduce turbo and engine longevity significantly faster...

I agree with your other points, though.

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[dyn085]

In this case then sure, it's OTS.

Are parameters not changed based on modifications, though?

Some for the filling models and some based on the improved efficiency or emissions checks but nothing to the point that it would constitute a custom tune.

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[stormcrow]

I highly doubt that any tuners are injecting enough fuel to cause damage to either the turbo or cat. This is a strategy used by many tuners on many different platforms, including Ford themselves. Only time will really tell.

Is there the possibility and can it be done wrong? Absolutely, I just don't see that being highly probably. Hell, I've seen far more dangerous things in datalogs by some tuners in this community that will reduce turbo and engine longevity significantly faster...

I agree with your other points, though.

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My cause for concern, in regard to the extra fuel being injected, is two-fold. Firstly, I'm a bit wary of the EGTs. Adding additional fuel to burn freely on the exhaust side will definitely increase EGTs and this can lead to damage to the turbo and exhaust components. EGTs have been the bane of all turbo applications. Secondly, the percussion waves caused by the detonation of raw fuel in the exhaust pre-cat could certainly damage/crack the cells of the cat rendering it useless and broken. This could also put undue back-pressure on the exhaust side of the turbine. If I were considering this feature, my question to the tuners would be "Can this be heard through the muffled OEM exhaust?" If the answer is 'yes', then that would tell me it's not OEM amounts of fuel as the OEM calibration's variant of this cannot be heard through the OEM exhaust. This fact, alone, would steer me clear of the feature. If the answer was a resounding 'no', I would weight the pros and cons and make certain that I had money set aside to replace a cat and/or turbo down the road. As to whether or not this damage would happen quickly or over the long-term, you're correct - it remains to be seen.

As to your text that I placed in bold, you're 1000% spot on. I've read some things here from "tuners" that left me simply speechless. I'm not sure I want to see the logs you reference. It would truly hit me right in the feels for the person running the tune.

 

[Racer83L]

so, I read a whole of of this thread. Couldnt find the info im looking for. Im going to buy a tuner, not sure which, I like the gains of the Livernois.

Do these tunes shorten the life if the engine? My car is a lease, so likely im returning it in 38 months and could care less what happens in 5 years from now. However, I do try and think of the possibility that I will keep the car and would like to get 150,000 out of the motor. is the tune safe? Will it shorten the life of the engine?

 

[stormcrow]

so, I read a whole of of this thread. Couldnt find the info im looking for. Im going to buy a tuner, not sure which, I like the gains of the Livernois.

Do these tunes shorten the life if the engine? My car is a lease, so likely im returning it in 38 months and could care less what happens in 5 years from now. However, I do try and think of the possibility that I will keep the car and would like to get 150,000 out of the motor. is the tune safe? Will it shorten the life of the engine?

What "info", exactly, are you looking for? You've pretty much all the information you need in this thread to decide if the Livernois tune is safe. Especially if you do your due diligence and research. That said, tuning, by anyone or any device, has inherent risks. No one can tell you what to expect as far as motor longevity on an OEM tune, let alone a more aggressive aftermarket tune. You simply have to weigh the risk vs. reward and make your decision. If you do your due diligence, this decision will be from an educated place.

 

[Sam4]

If you do any more than 12K miles a year, the least of your worries will be a $600 tuner. Years and years of Cobb AP and Livernois successes and I've never read of any associated failures.

 

[LILIKE16ST]

I think the way you drive the car and perform maintenance on it over the years goes more towards weather it will last than this or any other tune would from any of the major tuners in the game. I'd be more concerned with how its driven and general upkeep for sure I'm sure others will agree ..

 

[Racer83L]

maintenance is a given.

but losing 50% of drivetrain life for a tune is another thing.

Im not saying a tune will do anything like that. for all I know these tunes could be extending the life on the drive train. Im just curious if they do lessen the life of the car. It seems that some people are seeing MPG increases and power increases, which sounds like the tunes are more efficient that factory which I would assume wouldnt have negative effects on the engine.

I know of a guy who was an engineer on the suspension of an extremely popular SUV, and their initial design was tested and barely tweaked, the manufacturer was basically like "okay, good enough, ship it" yet the suspension had a lot of room for improvement. (better handling and increased ground clearance over stock). I don't know if the engine tuning works the same way or if they tweak and tweak and tweak to get the absolute best performance, reliability, and fuel economy or if they ship it just "good enough"

 

[dyn085]

Ford has to make multiple compromises when designing anything- cost, NVH, fuel consumption, hot weather performance, cold weather performance, engine longevity...etc. When you make changes you're going to be giving up something, somewhere, over initial design. For anyone that knows anything about metal fatigue, it's pretty much impossible to say that any tune will extend life over OEM because a metal part designed for so many cycles at a specific load...well, that number can't magically become better by increasing load over time.

No tuner is going to tell you that their tune decreases longevity and however much longevity actually is decreased will most likely be dependent on a plethora of other maintenance decisions as opposed to the tune unless your tuner is doing things blatantly wrong. If safety/longevity is that much of a concern then you need a platform that can datalog in order to monitor your parameters- there's really no way to get around that.

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[LILIKE16ST]

Like I said...if u beat on the car all the time all day every day....car isn't going to last as long due to excess wear of parts from hard use..then you add a nice aggressive tune in the mix and do the same thing im sure it would wear even quicker than scenario 1. But in my car where I baby it most of the time romp on it through a couple gears here and there and I keep good upkeep on like I think it'll do just fine with no I'll effects. Never heard of anyone having an issue caused by Livernois tune. Its gonna last good if u take care of it.

 

[dyn085]

Like I said...if u beat on the car all the time all day every day....car isn't going to last as long due to excess wear of parts from hard use..then you add a nice aggressive tune in the mix and do the same thing im sure it would wear even quicker than scenario 1. But in my car where I baby it most of the time romp on it through a couple gears here and there and I keep good upkeep on like I think it'll do just fine with no I'll effects. Never heard of anyone having an issue caused by Livernois tune. Its gonna last good if u take care of it.

But that whole line of thinking is wrong. If you're pushing more power than stock then you are adding extra stresses to the engine and components under the same (comparably) driving situations. That accumulation of stresses can be the factor, assuming that the car is mechanically taken care of during ownership, that ultimately leads to the final failure.

There is no 'permissible' amount of 'beating' on a car, but I doubt everyone bought this trim for it's fuel mileage and gentle mannerisms. Romp on it here and there and you have already added more stress than if it were completely stock. That's the nature of the beast- if you tune your car then you should understand that you have compromised longevity, whether by a little or a lot, for some additional fun.

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[Sam4]

If you do any more than 12K miles a year, the least of your worries will be a $600 tuner. Years and years of Cobb AP and Livernois successes and I've never read of any associated failures.

And I meant with regards to the leasing of a vehicle. Mileage restriction - nothing to do with any mechanical/tuning issue.

 

[LILIKE16ST]

But that whole line of thinking is wrong. If you're pushing more power than stock then you are adding extra stresses to the engine and components under the same (comparably) driving situations. That accumulation of stresses can be the factor, assuming that the car is mechanically taken care of during ownership, that ultimately leads to the final failure.

There is no 'permissible' amount of 'beating' on a car, but I doubt everyone bought this trim for it's fuel mileage and gentle mannerisms. Romp on it here and there and you have already added more stress than if it were completely stock. That's the nature of the beast- if you tune your car then you should understand that you have compromised longevity, whether by a little or a lot, for some additional fun.

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It goes back to the whole pros and cons scenerio and I believe there's more pros than cons running this tune for my needs. I see what you're saying and you're right...that's actually what I was trying to say in different terms. That's why I said if you beat on the car both ways the tuned version will see more stress and if you drive normal both ways the tuned version sees more stress but i don't believe it to be enough to compromise longevity by a significant amount based on my experience and everything I've ever seen about Livernois motorsports and their tuning. Everyone ultimately has to face their own decision and try what they think is best for their car.
..this is just my humble opinion.

 

[fST]

I've had my tune now for a few days. I love it! It's just as everyone else has described it!

 

[Livernois Motorsports]

I've had my tune now for a few days. I love it! It's just as everyone else has described it!

Glad to see you love your tune! Thanks for sharing