Lets Talk Raising the 1.6 EcoBoost Redline

[koal7]

When planning my engine build and looking over dyno sheets I keep running into issues with the turbo sizing being a little too big or a little too small. With a GT2560 power comes on early but you have the same issue as stock that it starts to die off towards redline (its also not quite big enough for really big numbers). Alternately, the GTX2860R keeps strong power all the way up to redline but shifting will always bring you below peak boost since that usually happens just over 5000RPM. My solution (which is no surprise seeing as I've always been a Honda guy till now) is to build the engine to have a safe higher RPM. Allowing the engine to rev safely to somewhere around 8000-8500RPM would allow for a lager turbo size where you could stay in full boost all the way through the gears.

So after all that preamble the topic of discussion, and my question is, which parts begin to give out or not operate properly at higher RPMs. The engine already has an under-square bore/stroke ratio and a low rotating mass, so it seems like a properly built engine should be able to absolutely scream. Which Internals do I need to watch out for and make sure to upgrade during a build? Who has mechanically over revved their FiST and broken something? What broke?

Also feel entirely free to tell me this is a silly question and I shouldn't even worry about it.

 

[bodytech]

don't worry about it bro, just let er buck

 

[Joe Schmoe]

Yeah, the question is kinda silly. I have Honda roots and I also miss a screaming redline - I get close with my MX5's 7500 RPM fuel cut and I enjoy that but it would be a tough sell to completely change the character of any car to try to replicate that. If you are entertained by RPM so much you can't stand it, by all means pursue your fun - it's your money. From a practical driving standpoint the ST's torque is worth keeping. The car just digs out of slow speed corners. If you haven't driven a fully electric car yet just wait until you give that a try. The torque is even greater than the ST. You'll begin to forget about redlines.

 

[DP03]

Yeah, the question is kinda silly. I have Honda roots and I also miss a screaming redline - I get close with my MX5's 7500 RPM fuel cut and I enjoy that but it would be a tough sell to completely change the character of any car to try to replicate that. If you are entertained by RPM so much you can't stand it, by all means pursue your fun - it's your money. From a practical driving standpoint the ST's torque is worth keeping. The car just digs out of slow speed corners. If you haven't driven a fully electric car yet just wait until you give that a try. The torque is even greater than the ST. You'll begin to forget about redlines.

All electric cars or hybrids that can run on all electric really are great at low end. 100% of torque available at 1 rpm!!

 

[jeffreylyon]

Somebody did a tear down (you should be able to find it with a search) and decided that the weak points are rods. Other than that, a cast crank, which might not be a problem, and single-use bolts, which you'd replace anyways, the engine is pretty stout. I wonder if you'd run into fueling problems with the stock injectors and pump pressure, though...

 

[wspec]

The motor can handle 8K+, especially if you change a few things however the ecu has a hard limit of 7700, which usually means a safe 7500 limit. So unless you want to wait and see if cobb or somebody else figures it out or convert to a stand alone ecu then its pretty much a dead topic right now.

 

[lessard.dcj]

Entered in error, info found in post above

 

[frankiefiesta]

The motor can handle 8K+, especially if you change a few things however the ecu has a hard limit of 7700, which usually means a safe 7500 limit. So unless you want to wait and see if cobb or somebody else figures it out or convert to a stand alone ecu then its pretty much a dead topic right now.

http://www.motec.com/filedownload.p...T_2013_Ecoboost-SCTi_datasheet.pdf?docid=4735

 

[koal7]

Yeah, the question is kinda silly. I have Honda roots and I also miss a screaming redline - I get close with my MX5's 7500 RPM fuel cut and I enjoy that but it would be a tough sell to completely change the character of any car to try to replicate that. If you are entertained by RPM so much you can't stand it, by all means pursue your fun - it's your money. From a practical driving standpoint the ST's torque is worth keeping. The car just digs out of slow speed corners. If you haven't driven a fully electric car yet just wait until you give that a try. The torque is even greater than the ST. You'll begin to forget about redlines.

I love the torque it has. And properly built and tuned it should still have it, just a little higher in the power band. As far as low speed cornering it might just put me in a different gear. With stock turbo sizing you have to short shift like crazy to feel the torque surge.

 

[koal7]

Somebody did a tear down (you should be able to find it with a search) and decided that the weak points are rods. Other than that, a cast crank, which might not be a problem, and single-use bolts, which you'd replace anyways, the engine is pretty stout. I wonder if you'd run into fueling problems with the stock injectors and pump pressure, though...

I believe I've read that one. They were talking about reaching 400hp and what would need to change for that. I would be doing forged internals in the engine but there are usually some different things that fail from high hp and high RPM. Valve trains tend to be unhappy going much faster than stock and they really didn't talk about that side of it.

 

[koal7]

The motor can handle 8K+, especially if you change a few things however the ecu has a hard limit of 7700, which usually means a safe 7500 limit. So unless you want to wait and see if cobb or somebody else figures it out or convert to a stand alone ecu then its pretty much a dead topic right now.

What things are you referring to. I've done some research on a full ecu replacement it could help with ethanol percentage tuning aswell. I'd love to just put haltech stuff in it but I don't know if I want to drop that kind of money on an ecu.

 

[Hijinx]

Somebody did a tear down (you should be able to find it with a search) and decided that the weak points are rods. Other than that, a cast crank, which might not be a problem, and single-use bolts, which you'd replace anyways, the engine is pretty stout. I wonder if you'd run into fueling problems with the stock injectors and pump pressure, though...

That the rods are the weak point is false. Once you get around 420-450whp, (or generate equivalent heat) the first thing to go is a ringland. Now perhaps if someone were to only replace the piston heads, the rods could become the next weak point. You absolutely run into fueling problems around 300-330whp without an auxiliary fueling solution.

 

[Hijinx]

I believe I've read that one. They were talking about reaching 400hp and what would need to change for that. I would be doing forged internals in the engine but there are usually some different things that fail from high hp and high RPM. Valve trains tend to be unhappy going much faster than stock and they really didn't talk about that side of it.

You don't need a built engine for 400hp... It would be optimal for longevity, but our 1.6l is stout. I ran my car for 4 days in a half mile race back in July. 19 half mile WOT runs, pushing between 380whp up to an estimated 430ish, maybe higher. Long story short, on day 4, we popped a ringland on cylinder 3, but my engine build was soon to be done, so we were pushing it intentionally. That was completely stock block, 34-36psi, aux fuel, E40 up to MS109, on a GTX2867r. If you're wondering, I went 161mph best... There were a couple Hellcats there running that speed as well.

And now, my engine build is just about done.

Edit- My redline is 7500. Peak boost (29psi) by 4krpm when in the dead of summer. 3.5krpm in the winter.

 

[koal7]

You don't need a built engine for 400hp... It would be optimal for longevity, but our 1.6l is stout. I ran my car for 4 days in a half mile race back in July. 19 half mile WOT runs, pushing between 380whp up to an estimated 430ish, maybe higher. Long story short, on day 4, we popped a ringland on cylinder 3, but my engine build was soon to be done, so we were pushing it intentionally. That was completely stock block, 34-36psi, aux fuel, E40 up to MS109, on a GTX2867r. If you're wondering, I went 161mph best... There were a couple Hellcats there running that speed as well.

And now, my engine build is just about done.

Edit- My redline is 7500. Peak boost (29psi) by 4krpm when in the dead of summer. 3.5krpm in the winter.

Longevity is very important to me. At this point my FiST is my only vehicle and I'd like to keep it that way. I may be asking too much but the fact that you popped a ring land even in those harsh conditions means a built engine would be needed for those power numbers.

What is in your built engine?

 

[Hijinx]

Longevity is very important to me. At this point my FiST is my only vehicle and I'd like to keep it that way. I may be asking too much but the fact that you popped a ring land even in those harsh conditions means a built engine would be needed for those power numbers.

What is in your built engine?

If you plan on going into 400whp territory you will absolutely want to build for longevity. There's only one factory freak I know of that's putting down 400whp on a GTX2871r and his engine is healthy. 360+whp puts you in a medium threat zone. Otherwise you're good to go, provided your tuning is on point.

My engine is built by [MENTION=1098]DHM[/MENTION] (Dead Hook Motorsports). It features higher CR custom DHM Wiseco piston heads, DHM custom K1 H-beam rods, ARP head studs and DHMs own blueprinting. I'm moving up to a 2871r from my 2867r, and adding a stage 3 Spec clutch and lightweight flywheel.

 

[M-Sport fan]

What things are you referring to. I've done some research on a full ecu replacement it could help with ethanol percentage tuning aswell. I'd love to just put haltech stuff in it but I don't know if I want to drop that kind of money on an ecu.

I realize that you probably don't have ANY emissions testing in Alabammy, not even an OBD 2 plug in, or any spot checks along the road either.

But, those residing in states which do have ANY of the above, just cannot use any of the 'stand alone' aftermarket ECUs and still be street legal.

 

[koal7]

I realize that you probably don't have ANY emissions testing in Alabammy, not even an OBD 2 plug in, or any spot checks along the road either.

But, those residing in states which do have ANY of the above, just cannot use any of the 'stand alone' aftermarket ECUs and still be street legal.

I didn't know that. I guess I need to rethink some of my build plans then. Thanks.

 

[Beans]

There are plenty of stand alone options that keep the "OBD2" diagnostic port functionality.

As long as the valvesprings can handle the load, and everything flows well enough to support it, I wouldn't see why the stock engine couldn't rev to 7500ish RPM without worry. R/S ratio, piston speeds, etc don't get too worrysome(IMO) until past that. Maybe a set of cams that can work well within that RPM range and other well matched components, but otherwise, it seems plenty stout. Having the party end at 6500 kind of sucks, reminds me of my old Accord. Also came from the Honda camp. This gearing screams for a bigger turbo and about another 1000rpm of headroom.

 

[M-Sport fan]

There are plenty of stand alone options that keep the "OBD2" diagnostic port functionality.

How do they show all of the items (factory ECU I/M readiness monitors, vins, etc.) the various state DMVs look for once they plug into the port?
Does a tuner program them to 'fake out' the inspection workers, by having them display all of the required data??

Do they 'piggyback' onto the factory ECU, and one just disconnects them, and switches back to the factory ECU only for inspection??

 

[A7xogg]

With vvt on intake and exhaust plus other builds taking the stock motor to 7500rpm+ I have no issue revving out the 1.6l