Ken Block Uber Meaty Wheelbase and Tires.

[Drwecki]

http://www.cardotcom.com/news/2011-ken-block-fiesta-wrc/photo06.aspx


Hello All,

I’ve been reading this forum all afternoon and I still have a question about meaty wheels. I’m basically getting ready to pull the trigger on a fiesta st, but I want the wheels and wheel base to eventually look similar to Blocks in this linked photo. It can be stock everywhere else, butI live how those big ass wheels and tires look like a real life Mario kart. Sorry. But it’s so sexy, to me!


Is it possible?

If so, how? (Yes I know money will be spent.).

My guess:
Buy wheels and tires (18x9), custom axel spacers? fit to car, cut the $&@) our of fenders, custom fiberglass work (I would like it to be a bit detailed here), Upgrade brakes so it’ll stop?

I’ve looked on the forum for cars that went there but haven’t seen any. So... school me on this. Also. I’m just gathering data. I’m not doing it yet.


Thoughts?


Thanks.

 

[Bluedrank]

What you're looking at is a M-Sport Fiesta RS WRC rally car.

You can buy various Fiesta rally cars here: https://rallycarsforsale.net/?s=Fiesta+RS&sa=search&scat=10

Apart from that, you can probably fit decently thick tires on the stock car. How big I have no idea.

 

[Drwecki]

Oh thank you for that website Bluedrank. While a fully built rally car would be great, Itll take me a few more years of saving to hit the 50k mark for the cheaper ones for sale. I’m just looking to extend the wheelbase a bit, cut the fenders as much as possible, and get a custom wide body kit made locally. I know I couldn’t afford an entire rally suspension upgrade/frame . I would really love to see the biggest tires someone has fitted on theirs with fender cutting. If anyone can point me in the correct direction to some builds / forum posts that would be cool. I did see this build earlier http://www.build-threads.com/build-threads/awd-ford-fiesta-cosworth/ , but I don’t really need it to go off road. I like the look of the big wheels, thick tires, custom fenders. Everything else in the st suits my needs. If I were to gothis complete route I would start with a beater and go from there (like this post). Maybe the rally sites would be better suited for this question? Thanks for the heads up. I’d still like to see the most extreme wheel fitment on a non rally st. So if anyone has any pics I’d love to see them posted. Cheers ad your time is much appreciated.

 

[samsmithtimsmas]

Oh thank you for that website Bluedrank. While a fully built rally car would be great, Itll take me a few more years of saving to hit the 50k mark for the cheaper ones for sale. I’m just looking to extend the wheelbase a bit, cut the fenders as much as possible, and get a custom wide body kit made locally. I know I couldn’t afford an entire rally suspension upgrade/frame . I would really love to see the biggest tires someone has fitted on theirs with fender cutting. If anyone can point me in the correct direction to some builds / forum posts that would be cool. I did see this build earlier http://www.build-threads.com/build-threads/awd-ford-fiesta-cosworth/ , but I don’t really need it to go off road. I like the look of the big wheels, thick tires, custom fenders. Everything else in the st suits my needs. If I were to gothis complete route I would start with a beater and go from there (like this post). Maybe the rally sites would be better suited for this question? Thanks for the heads up. I’d still like to see the most extreme wheel fitment on a non rally st. So if anyone has any pics I’d love to see them posted. Cheers ad your time is much appreciated.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9htreSslF9k&t=409s

245/35 on a 17x9 ET15 I'm not certain on the offset there, but that is what Fifteen52 suggested I should use for the widest wheels for their kit. They said to use a 235 tire though

This setup is the most I've seen on any street ST. I'm trying for something similar, but without lowering any. The most difficult part of this is finding the correct rims for the car because of the 4x108 lug pattern.

 

[Drwecki]

Totally cool! Not as extreme as the dream, but definitely a nice look. I was reading last night that if you go too big you can hurt performance due to increasing the weight of the tires/rims (that backs me off a bit). So, if that’s not really an issue for you, you may be able to drill out blank rotors or use wheel adapters/ get adapters made (you see this in the air cooled vw world that I started in years ago). Adapters do create a new weak point in the system.

 

[samsmithtimsmas]

I posted on a different thread the comparison between the OE rim and tire weight vs a 245 tire and a 17x9 rim and found that the larger combination was in fact lighter than the stock by just under a pound. All depends on the setup, of course. If you're doing a custom body kit with some big fender cutting there's no reason you shouldn't be able to fit larger tires on there. I've never seen anything wider than 245, but I know what the serious custom ones use like Tucci Hot Rods build for sema is on 255/40/18

http://tuccihotrods.com/2016-ford-fiesta-st

 

[M-Sport fan]

BTW, not to nitpick, but what you are referring to is NOT the "wheelbase" (which is the DISTANCE between the hub centers of the front and rear wheels measured parallel to the length of the car), but the TRACK (which is the WIDTH between the center lines of the wheels, measured perpendicular to the length of the car) which gets widened with low offset, W-I-D-E wheels (and/or spacers), tires, and big fender flares.

 

[M-Sport fan]

http://tuccihotrods.com/2016-ford-fiesta-st

As far as aesthetics go, that is STILL the hottest looking 4 door FiST 'widebody' out there (with the exception of the rear flares not covering a little more of the wheel/tire).

I am just not too sure if they engineered that whole setup to also be optimal as far as the actual suspension geometry and handling is concerned.

 

[Drwecki]

Thanks! Track distance! Got it...Thanks for the vocabulary upgrade..

 

[Drwecki]

As far as aesthetics go, that is STILL the hottest looking 4 door FiST 'widebody' out there (with the exception of the rear flares not covering a little more of the wheel/tire).

I am just not too sure if they engineered that whole setup to also be optimal as far as the actual suspension geometry and handling is concerned.

That car is hot; I saw it and it provided some hope that this was doable on a non rally car... Can you enlighten me on what I/they would need to watch out for (engineering wise) in putting the larger wheels on there? After looking at both pictures (the Block rally and the Tucci), I would step down to 17" rims but add more rubber to make up the difference in height... This is gonna be hot....

 

[M-Sport fan]

I am not a suspension/chassis engineer, but there ARE some problems when one goes WAAYYY beyond the factory dimensions in track width (using spacers, and wide wheel/tire/offset setups) while retaining the full factory suspension and geometries.
I've heard scrub radii mentioned, among other suspension geometry details, but I will defer to others who have already forgotten more than I will EVER know on this exact topic.

[MENTION=636]RAAMaudio[/MENTION] probably has played around with, and knows more about this subject than anyone else on here currently.

 

[BRGT350]

http://www.cardotcom.com/news/2011-ken-block-fiesta-wrc/photo06.aspx


Hello All,

I’ve been reading this forum all afternoon and I still have a question about meaty wheels. I’m basically getting ready to pull the trigger on a fiesta st, but I want the wheels and wheel base to eventually look similar to Blocks in this linked photo. It can be stock everywhere else, butI live how those big ass wheels and tires look like a real life Mario kart. Sorry. But it’s so sexy, to me!


Is it possible?

If so, how? (Yes I know money will be spent.).

My guess:
Buy wheels and tires (18x9), custom axel spacers? fit to car, cut the $&@) our of fenders, custom fiberglass work (I would like it to be a bit detailed here), Upgrade brakes so it’ll stop?

I’ve looked on the forum for cars that went there but haven’t seen any. So... school me on this. Also. I’m just gathering data. I’m not doing it yet.


Thoughts?


Thanks.

The 2011 Fiesta that debuted at the Sno*Drift was a hodge-podge of a car. It wasn't really a stage rally car, it was some sort of a Rallycross car that I think started off from OlsbergMSE. Those cars are only a Fiesta as a shell. They are even further away from a Fiesta than the MSport stage rally cars that Ken used later. Having spent a lot of time around the OlsbergMSE and MSport cars, they are significantly different. When you really dig into the cars, you realize they are barely a Fiesta. Now, there is a body kit that is designed to look very similar to what Block used in 2011. There are few companies making replicas of the MSport WRC rear wing. The problem with all of this stuff on the street is that it looks ridiculous because the cars still don't look like actual WRC cars. The reason is that so much of the car has changed that you just can't get there with a street car. Too much of the suspension geometry has changed and that is almost impossible to replicate without serious modifications.

When looking at rally cars for inspiration, remember that there a lot of different cars built for different classes and different levels of modifications. The most radical are the Global Rallycross cars. Next is the WRC spec, R5, S2000, R2, and R1. There are probably a mix of different ones I am forgetting. A R1 is basically a street car with uprated suspension bits and safety parts. There aren't really any ST R2's, except for the one ACP used in Rally America when he won the championship in 2015. There is an R5 running at the Sno*Drift this weekend in Michigan and the WRC cars are in Monte Carlo.

While I would love to build some wild looking WRC-ish Fiesta ST for the street, I realize the cost and chances of getting it right are prohibitive. The best looking street Fiesta's that look like they are rally inspired without looking like something rejected from The Fast and Furious 10 is the MSport edition Fiesta ST's. I would honestly look at them for inspiration rather than Block's million dollar rally cars.

 

[BRGT350]

I am not a suspension/chassis engineer, but there ARE some problems when one goes WAAYYY beyond the factory dimensions in track width (using spacers, and wide wheel/tire/offset setups) while retaining the full factory suspension and geometries.
I've heard scrub radii mentioned, among other suspension geometry details, but I will defer to others who have already forgotten more than I will EVER know on this exact topic.

[MENTION=636]RAAMaudio[/MENTION] probably has played around with, and knows more about this subject than anyone else on here currently.

I would consider jumping in with my suspension knowledge, but have grown tired of doing so on the Fiesta FB page, only to be called an elitist engineer trying to encourage people to read books and understand basic suspension geometry, that it isn't worth posting anymore. I have concluded that some bro on Facebook probably knows more than somebody who was a suspension engineer, worked on a few race teams, built a few autocross cars, been wrenching on suspensions for 20 years, read just about every book by Carroll Smith, own a bumpsteer gauge (nobody even knows what that is), and had the highest score in my SAE suspension dynamics class. I clearly don't know enough to comment on anything suspension related.

 

[captainmorbid]

I would consider jumping in with my suspension knowledge, but have grown tired of doing so on the Fiesta FB page, only to be called an elitist engineer trying to encourage people to read books and understand basic suspension geometry, that it isn't worth posting anymore. I have concluded that some bro on Facebook probably knows more than somebody who was a suspension engineer, worked on a few race teams, built a few autocross cars, been wrenching on suspensions for 20 years, read just about every book by Carroll Smith, own a bumpsteer gauge (nobody even knows what that is), and had the highest score in my SAE suspension dynamics class. I clearly don't know enough to comment on anything suspension related.

Bahahahha! Barely qualified...


Sent from my iPhone using Glue and macaroni

 

[M-Sport fan]

I would consider jumping in with my suspension knowledge, but have grown tired of doing so on the Fiesta FB page, only to be called an elitist engineer trying to encourage people to read books and understand basic suspension geometry, that it isn't worth posting anymore. I have concluded that some bro on Facebook probably knows more than somebody who was a suspension engineer, worked on a few race teams, built a few autocross cars, been wrenching on suspensions for 20 years, read just about every book by Carroll Smith, own a bumpsteer gauge (nobody even knows what that is), and had the highest score in my SAE suspension dynamics class. I clearly don't know enough to comment on anything suspension related.

Yeah, SORRY I forgot that YOU are an actual practicing suspension engineer! <-me

I was just thinking along the lines that Rick actually changed the geometry on his FiST (including cambering the rear axle hubs) in order to accommodate, AND correct any potential problems from running low/medium offset number, 15x9 and even 15x10 wheels with up to 245 Hoosiers on them.

He did only pull and stretch the factory fenders, along with limited cambering to make things fit, and did NOT run big box, or WRC style rally flares, so if someone did THAT they could go even MORE radical on wheel/tire/offset/track width setups, and get into even MORE trouble yet!

I agree with you on the ridiculous looks of slapping on a huge WRC wing on a factory bodied car without the full flare, front clip, etc. setup as well, and of course it is NEVER going to even 'look' really 'correct' in this country anyway, no matter what anyone does, since we get the 5 door ONLY as a production vehicle.
Even if one could get a factory 3 door here and accurately replicate the looks of a WRC spec Fiesta, it is STILL never going to be one under the skin, so why bother.

A quick question on R1 cars; are they basically a FWD version of the old AWD Group N, are the mods allowed similar?
Also, was that Andrew Comrie-Picard R2 car which ran here, a 5 door? Was it based on a 1.0 3 cylinder EcoBoost (like your brother's car), like some of the R2s in Europe/the ERC?

 

[M-Sport fan]

The 2011 Fiesta that debuted at the Sno*Drift was a hodge-podge of a car. It wasn't really a stage rally car, it was some sort of a Rallycross car that I think started off from OlsbergMSE. Those cars are only a Fiesta as a shell. They are even further away from a Fiesta than the MSport stage rally cars that Ken used later.

Yes, the rules most certainly have changed RADICALLY since I was last involved with the sport in this country (back under the auspices of the SCCA)!

They did not ever allow sequential gearboxes, let alone unrestricted 600 AWHP rallycross inline engine setups, even in the top 'open' class.
Did that first Sno*Drift Fiesta have the coolers all located in the hatch area, a la current GRC cars?

 

[BRGT350]

Yes, the rules most certainly have changed RADICALLY since I was last involved with the sport in this country (back under the auspices of the SCCA)!

They did not ever allow sequential gearboxes, let alone unrestricted 600 AWHP rallycross inline engine setups, even in the top 'open' class.
Did that first Sno*Drift Fiesta have the coolers all located in the hatch area, a la current GRC cars?

No, the coolers were up front like a traditional car. I never got a chance to see that car run. I arrived at Sno*Drift about the same time Block nailed a tree and destroyed the front suspension. The next morning, just about the entire Ford crew along with Block were gone. I became the only Fiesta there and it was the European spec car from the Fiesta Movement. The car and I ended up on AutoBlog with an article.

I was a suspension engineer, now I play around with making business plans and managing products. I play with suspensions in my free time now. ACP's car was built from a ST by TON and Mountune. It probably used a bunch of the R2 parts that would transfer over. Suspension, safety pieces, brakes, and stuff like that would work for either car. Anything designed for the NA 1.6L or 1.0L EB would not transfer over. I don't know if ACP's car was built from a new ST or a leftover from the Fiesta Movement. A bunch of the ST's and non-ST's went there, just like the original Fiesta Movement cars. None could be sold for street use, so they were either crushed or sent there. The last I heard, mine was in a warehouse in Detroit. I was trying to get the engine cover and have it signed by the engineering team, but never got that done.

With suspensions, it is all about compromise. For a street car, you end up really compromising stuff to make it work in all sorts of conditions. The further you change anything from the factory, chances are really good you will be taking away some of the capability of the car on the street. Wheelbase, track width, offset, camber, toe, spring rates, damper rates, bushing rates, caster, sway bars, and twist beam torsional spring rate all play a part. The Fiesta ST is one of the best handling cars from the factory and it doesn't take much to screw it up. If you are building a dedicated track car, then you can really make changes, but you are doing that at the full expense of street use.

For reference, here are some pictures of MSport Fiesta R2's and rally school cars https://www.flickr.com/photos/brgt350/albums/72157635115940184
OlsbergMSE Global RallyCross cars https://www.flickr.com/photos/brgt350/albums/72157633360482010
Deegan's GRC Fiesta https://www.flickr.com/photos/brgt350/albums/72157633355858232
Foust GRC Fiesta https://www.flickr.com/photos/brgt350/albums/72157633353899604 (note, I was able to get a look at stuff on these cars that I wasn't able to photograph)
Block's MSport GRC Fiesta (totally different than the others) https://www.flickr.com/photos/brgt350/albums/72157633329128309
A bunch of rally cars, including Block's MSport stage rally car, R2 Fiesta's, and Verena's R1-ish Fiesta https://www.flickr.com/photos/brgt350/albums/72157632642630425

The take away is to closely look at how different each level of these cars than a production car. These range from a $100,000 production Fiesta (Verena's car) to $500,000 (or more) GRC and Open class stage rally cars.

 

[M-Sport fan]

^^^Thanks for the above!!

As far as totally screwing the car up for street use by messing with the suspension; does installing something like a set of dyno matched, and adjuster calibrated Koni Sports (or matched and balanced valving Bilstein B8s) with just a slightly higher rate, and 1" or less lowering, than factory linear spring fall within this parameter in your opinion?
(Given NO other suspension changes like; ANY brace bars, ANY poly suspension bushings, or ANY anti-sway bar changes.)

Were all of the Fiesta Movement cars built from non-VIN plated, 'body-in-white' seam welded, and fully FIA spec caged unibody shells, just like the M-sport cars?
(Just wondering WHY they could not be sold, and registered for street use, also potential liability reasons maybe?)

BTW; I was at that very FIRST in this country US Rallycross event in August 2010 at NJMP (BEFORE it was the GRC, and was run under the auspices of Rally America/Rally Car) when Tanner Foust won in his Fiesta.
TON was there, and it was the first time I had seen him since the 2004 Maine Forest Summer Pro Rally.
Looking at Tanner's car in the service area/pit, is the only way I would ever know that they put the various radiators in the hatch

 

[captainmorbid]

^^^Thanks for the above!!

As far as totally screwing the car up for street use by messing with the suspension; does installing something like a set of dyno matched, and adjuster calibrated Koni Sports (or matched and balanced valving Bilstein B8s) with just a slightly higher rate, and 1" or less lowering, than factory linear spring fall within this parameter in your opinion?
(Given NO other suspension changes like; ANY brace bars, ANY poly suspension bushings, or ANY anti-sway bar changes.)

Were all of the Fiesta Movement cars built from non-VIN plated, 'body-in-white' seam welded, and fully FIA spec caged unibody shells, just like the M-sport cars?
(Just wondering WHY they could not be sold, and registered for street use, also potential liability reasons maybe?)

BTW; I was at that very FIRST in this country US Rallycross event in August 2010 at NJMP (BEFORE it was the GRC, and was run under the auspices of Rally America/Rally Car) when Tanner Foust won in his Fiesta.
TON was there, and it was the first time I had seen him since the 2004 Maine Forest Summer Pro Rally.
Looking at Tanner's car in the service area/pit, is the only way I would ever know that they put the various radiators in the hatch

If my memory serves, Foust’s car was built by Olmsberg, which is the same as the Pike’s peak hill climb Fiesta of the same vintage. Olmsberg was pretty much building Fiesta ‘shaped’ cars, as opposed to the later modified Fiestas used up to now.

The Fiesta movement cars couldn’t be sold due to grey market laws. Sadly, as the 5 speed in them had closer gear ratios unlike the NA markets IB5s which have a damn chasm between the top gears. BRGT made many notes on that difference in his Fiesta Movement posts and after he grabbed a NA spec car to tinker with.

As far as changing suspension geometry, if the parts are engineered to work with the Fez, ie Bilstein’s various kits/mountune’s springs etc, even those kits will affect handling parameters to some degree. I had a set of KW V1 “coilovers” on my 11 Fiesta lowered by nearly 2 inches, and while the thing cornered much better than my oem ST, it had some peculiar quirks in straight line composure. The rear end had an oscillating effect from side to side on reduced grip straight line holding (winter) that actually was a bit terrifying. I had to jam a 100 lb heavy bag in the hatch to reduce it. You alter one thing that engineers have set in oem design, and you will compromise something.
The matched suspension kits available will have the least effect in altering parameters, or at least have minimal negative effect, but they are still there.




Sent from my iPhone using Glue and macaroni

 

[M-Sport fan]

^^^Were the Fiesta Movement cars based on Euro/Brit 3 doors?

BTW; I believe the company is OLSBERGS MSE, as BRGT350 has stated, and not Olmsberg.