Just drove a Tesla Y and Chevy Bolt

[LilPartyBox]

Short of battery changes or upgrades, I'm not sure there's much wrenching to do on the powertrain. The suspension, brakes, etc. are the same as an ICE, or they will be until the motor-in-hub stuff hits the market, although I don't imagine that we'll see such in any performance/every-day application.

How do you disconnect the negative terminal before starting any work if the whole dam thing is a battery on wheels? lol But ur right. It's another reason i'm exicted. Less moving parts should = easier wrenching (once the battery thing is figured out) and better reliability.

And an EV miata has been done already. It came across my google feed one day. Search it up. It's out there. It must be an even more fun lil whip

 

[Ford ST]

Hybrids have kill switches on them I assume electric cars do as well. This is for emergency vehicle rescues and such. Don't need to disconnect the battery though to change a shock absorber.

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[jeffreylyon]

How do you disconnect the negative terminal before starting any work if the whole dam thing is a battery on wheels? lol But ur right. It's another reason i'm exicted. Less moving parts should = easier wrenching (once the battery thing is figured out) and better reliability.

Actually, my Leaf has a 12VDC battery for all the normal car stuff. The big, scary battery gets relay-ed in (with a big "clunk") when I turn the car on, otherwise, it's isolated. If I really wanted to pull the ground lead when monkeying around with the brakes or the suspension I could.

There's a lot of normal car stuff in an EV. The stuff that's different in the Leaf is the power train up to the differential, the A/C and heater, the charging system, and the braking system in that there's a balance between the hydraulic brakes (which are normal car stuff) and regen braking. There's a lot more new (and unreliable) stuff on the Tesla, but I think that the Chevy and Ford EVs are pretty similar in that they're just cars for the most part.

 

[SwissLime]

If I had the garage space I would have an EV yesterday, probably go with a Chevy Bolt as opposed to a performance Model 3 since I would keep my Fiesta as the fun car.

 

[M-Sport fan]

...and it MUST BE a 'fun one' at that, given those mods!!

 

[jeff]

While I understand how you might feel EV's are "Disposable"...

It's a little disheartening to see so much hate on the EV's here! As much as I like my IC engines, electric is the future, we can hop aboard the train and make things cooler by demanding more enthusiast oriented EV's, or cling to our ICE as we watch the auto industry leave us behind as it devolves into lame appliance status.

Thanks for the thoughtful response. Let me restate/clarify, I do think EVs are the future and don't hate them at all. I admitted that before long I'd like to own one when I have garage space to keep it covered/plugged in, for around town use. Maybe my posting this thread was more a mourning of the acceptance that EVs are the future and the future feels vanilla. Sure, it's a rocket off the line....but emotionless. When anyone - a 17-year-old rich kid who had a Tesla given to him, or a Karen who couldn't care less who her Model Y is bullying on the way to Target - can get effortless acceleration and performance without caring or knowing how great it is, it bothers me a bit.

"With great power comes great responsibility." - Uncle Ben

My use of the word "disposable" was less talking about batteries/the car itself and more talking about the attitude that people in general have about cars. Rather than caring about the car, cleaning it, enjoying every mile, it is a utilitarian thing. Like my old iPad that's dead and has been sitting in my drawer for the last 5 years, it's an appliance. It serves its function and when it's time to replace it a better one will be purchased.

I don't think that way about cars. To me my car is passion, creativity, a work of art, a piece of brilliant engineering, improved by me in my years of ownership, only getting better, more enjoyable, more classic, more special.

Big difference from the "appliance" mentality. That's what I'm trying to say here.

Again, I was super impressed with both EVs I drove!!!

 

[The_Ryan]

Thanks for your response! I really enjoy your posts. Always interesting and thought provoking!

I think the vast majority of people treat their car as a disposable appliance status regardless if it's EV or ICE. I think the two cars you drove were just EV versions of would have been boring mass-marketed cars. Perhaps the rather rabid online presence of the Tesla fan-base may have warped our perception to think it would be anything otherwise. Or that most people that drove a tesla came from regular, mundane ICE cars, so to them, a tesla truly is exhilarating.

To your point about Karens on their way to Upscale-Walmart: They already don't appreciate tech and power in their Range Rovers/Explorer ST/Porche Cayenne. It's just more of the same thing.

Though the thread started off about just those two cars, it seems to have migrated to EV's in general. On that point: I feel that a car can be fun and engaging to drive if it's EV, and we're starting to see the effort made by some companies.

 

[jeff]

Thanks for your response! I really enjoy your posts. Always interesting and thought provoking!

I think the vast majority of people treat their car as a disposable appliance status regardless if it's EV or ICE. I think the two cars you drove were just EV versions of would have been boring mass-marketed cars. Perhaps the rather rabid online presence of the Tesla fan-base may have warped our perception to think it would be anything otherwise. Or that most people that drove a tesla came from regular, mundane ICE cars, so to them, a tesla truly is exhilarating.

To your point about Karens on their way to Upscale-Walmart: They already don't appreciate tech and power in their Range Rovers/Explorer ST/Porche Cayenne. It's just more of the same thing.

Though the thread started off about just those two cars, it seems to have migrated to EV's in general. On that point: I feel that a car can be fun and engaging to drive if it's EV, and we're starting to see the effort made by some companies.

Yeah I agree, I think that's again where I was going with post #1...even though the EVs offer what they offer, the driver connection has been removed (on purpose) so for the very small group of drivers like us who are conscious of what the motor is doing when the clutch is released in 2nd gear it feels like the world is going the way of Wall-E. But I'm just getting old and crusty talking like this, it's proof.

 

[M-Sport fan]

Thanks for the thoughtful response. Let me restate/clarify, I do think EVs are the future and don't hate them at all. I admitted that before long I'd like to own one when I have garage space to keep it covered/plugged in, for around town use. Maybe my posting this thread was more a mourning of the acceptance that EVs are the future and the future feels vanilla. Sure, it's a rocket off the line....but emotionless. When anyone - a 17-year-old rich kid who had a Tesla given to him, or a Karen who couldn't care less who her Model Y is bullying on the way to Target - can get effortless acceleration and performance without caring or knowing how great it is, it bothers me a bit.

"With great power comes great responsibility." - Uncle Ben

My use of the word "disposable" was less talking about batteries/the car itself and more talking about the attitude that people in general have about cars. Rather than caring about the car, cleaning it, enjoying every mile, it is a utilitarian thing. Like my old iPad that's dead and has been sitting in my drawer for the last 5 years, it's an appliance. It serves its function and when it's time to replace it a better one will be purchased.

I don't think that way about cars. To me my car is passion, creativity, a work of art, a piece of brilliant engineering, improved by me in my years of ownership, only getting better, more enjoyable, more classic, more special.

Big difference from the "appliance" mentality. That's what I'm trying to say here.

Again, I was super impressed with both EVs I drove!!!

That's the exact way I think of even the current ICE SUVs (even the 'quick' ones!), and the Camrys/Avalons that the masses gobbled up before them.

TOTAL 'point A to point B' appliances to the (automotive) followers/lemmings, which is why they will also welcome electric autonomous vehicles with open arms, so they can text, browse, do makeup, eat, and be able to do all of the other "important stuff" (LOL) to them, while being transported to their destinations, (just like they were in a bus/train/airplane) without fear of ticketing/arrest by LEOs for the violations.

 

[Dpro]

That's the exact way I think of even the current ICE SUVs (even the 'quick' ones!), and the Camrys/Avalons that the masses gobbled up before them.

TOTAL 'point A to point B' appliances to the (automotive) followers/lemmings, which is why they will also welcome electric autonomous vehicles with open arms, so they can text, browse, do makeup, eat, and be able to do all of the other "important stuff" (LOL) to them, while being transported to their destinations, (just like they were in a bus/train/airplane) without fear of ticketing/arrest by LEOs for the violations.

Unfortunately at least in this country its really become the norm, the only other person in the family that looks at their car as some kind of performance machine is my older brother. The rest treat them like a appliance and so do my nieces and nephew. I look around me and see a lot of people who treat their car the same way. For every enthusiast there a probably at least ten to fifteen that look at cars as mere appliances and nothing more. It does not help that the design of a lot of EV’s and SUV’s and minivans have contributed to that. Make a mundane looking vehicle and people will assume vehicles are mundane.
What Tesla did with their first model using the Lotus Chassis design was originally a great idea. Yet Tesla’s engineers first and foremost were never sports car designers nor was Tesla a true sports car company.
Ford has attempted albeit in a lemming sort of way to inject some sportiness into the concept. Except they are so stuck on the bottom line that the let the SUV concept creep in.
You could look no further than some of our own former forum members for the whole suv trap. They have allowed advertising tell them that the minute you have a family your current car is too small and you need a SUV. I see it here I see on the Facebook forums . I have to sell my FiST I am about to have a kid its going to be to small. LOL the car has 4 doors and a hatchback. It’s already leaning down the utilitarian road and you think its too small. Your kid will fit in the back seat fine. loll
I rant but its true its a mindset problem todays generations could care less about cars here in the U.S. its not quite as bad in Europe but I am sure its their as well. Its just not as obvious as in Murrica

 

[M-Sport fan]

^^^YES, their "MUST get a minivan/SUV for even ONE baby" mindset freaking heads EXPLODE when I tell them that I did just fine schlepping around my two hockey playing sons (and one was a GOALIE with all of that HUGE equipment!) using a 2 door sports coupe (4th gen LS1 Z28). LOL

 

[jeff]

You could look no further than some of our own former forum members for the whole suv trap. They have allowed advertising tell them that the minute you have a family your current car is too small and you need a SUV. I see it here I see on the Facebook forums . I have to sell my FiST I am about to have a kid its going to be to small. LOL the car has 4 doors and a hatchback. It’s already leaning down the utilitarian road and you think its too small. Your kid will fit in the back seat fine. loll
I rant but its true its a mindset problem todays generations could care less about cars here in the U.S. its not quite as bad in Europe but I am sure its their as well. Its just not as obvious as in Murrica

I agree with you but I will say counterpoint (because I have 4 kids) sometimes more room really is needed. We drove a minivan for 17 years. One year ago I was sure (now that 2 are enlisted and gone) that it was time for the best bargain around, a Kia Stinger GT2. Coming from a van and all the room it allowed, a sedan just didn't have the room we needed for travel and the life we lived. So I folded and bought a CX-9 SUV.

At least I got the best most performance oriented SUV available. And my ST is parked next to it. And my 2 seater manual tranny Insight next to that. So we're not all vanilla.

 

[Ford ST]

I think the point he is trying to make is people have just one kid or two kids and believe they need a giant vehicle. That is simply not true my brother and I grew up in 94 Nissan Altima the primary car my parents had, and most of the time the only car they had. It simply comes down to the American mindset must be bigger.

4 kids is obviously different and your situation is a little more unique than 99% of us, but for the average family of 4 a SUV is not needed. And I'm glad you got a Mazda and not a Nissan rogue.

I think Tesla's are incredibly boring but at least they make cars.

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[The_Ryan]

I think the point he is trying to make is people have just one kid or two kids and believe they need a giant vehicle. That is simply not true my brother and I grew up in 94 Nissan Altima the primary car my parents had, and most of the time the only car they had. It simply comes down to the American mindset must be bigger.

4 kids is obviously different and your situation is a little more unique than 99% of us, but for the average family of 4 a SUV is not needed.

I think Tesla's are incredibly boring but at least they make cars.

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Maybe if the kids have friends then they could use the more seating? And for some reason wagons have the same stigma as mini-vans.
Fortunately for my parents, I had no friends so they were able to get away with sedans and smaller cars

 

[Ford ST]

I did learn something new today if it was not for Volkswagen doing some emissions cheating on diesel vehicles we may not have near the electric vehicle charging network that we have now.
Volkswagen owns electrify America and they were basically forced to do it.
Road and track took a electric Porsche from New York to California they had to stop 19 times how fun. And what sucked for them is most of the electrify America charging stations are at Walmart parking lots.

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[Ford ST]

Maybe if the kids have friends then they could use the more seating? And for some reason wagons have the same stigma as mini-vans.
Fortunately for my parents, I had no friends so they were able to get away with sedans and smaller cars [emoji23][emoji38]

I actually like wagons but yeah the stigma is real. I didn't have any friends either so it wasn't a problem.

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[jeff]

I think the point he is trying to make is people have just one kid or two kids and believe they need a giant vehicle. That is simply not true my brother and I grew up in 94 Nissan Altima the primary car my parents had, and most of the time the only car they had. It simply comes down to the American mindset must be bigger.

4 kids is obviously different and your situation is a little more unique than 99% of us, but for the average family of 4 a SUV is not needed. And I'm glad you got a Mazda and not a Nissan rogue.

I think Tesla's are incredibly boring but at least they make cars.

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One more counterpoint, I'm not arguing to be an asshole, just from experience. So yeah we had 4, two have moved away, I thought a big sedan (Stinger) would do with just 2. But one of those 2 is as big as me and the other is nearly 5' tall. We _could_ cram into a sedan like my parents did with me in the 80s or we could stretch out in an SUV. Fitting cargo for 4 into a sedan allows about 2% buffer; fitting cargo for 4 into an SUV allows tons of space, you don't have to play tetris when you're packing. And ride height. It's nice to be able to see everything from an SUV instead of losing all visibility if you're in a sedan and most anything around you (front, rear, left, right) blocks visibility. I hate that. Also little things matter like load height. Loading suitcases (vacation/trip) or bags (grocery shopping) in and out of a trunk seems prehistoric once you've owned a van/SUV with a higher trunk. Not having to bend over to get stuff from a trunk x1084 times per year is a factor. Also in and out...getting in the SUV is easy, you just stand and sit, you never bend. With the sedan you have to be somewhat agile. We're still in good shape thankfully but even so those little things (load height/cargo room/ride height/visibility) are real conveniences. Plus after raising 4 kids I don't want to bend over to get in my car more than I have to....so the SUV benefits are appealing.

That said I'm an enthusiast so I'd have sacrificed all of the above to have the Stinger. But in our case it's the car my wife drives 90% of the time so it's her choice and I get her reasons. She's been hit twice by drunk drivers, her car (a sedan coincidentally) was totaled both times. So she has good reasons to want to be bigger, higher, safer.

Let's not forget the two cars I drive are 2700 lbs (Fiesta) and 1800 lbs (Insight) and both are among the very smallest and cramped on the road. So I'm not selling out, but I do understand.

I will say the CX-9 won all those awards for being "best drivers SUV" for a reason, a year in now it's still a joy to drive every time.

 

[Ford ST]

Well I don't necessarily agree especially the grocery part. I do understand what you are saying.
But that's okay you like what you like. We can just agree to disagree on this subject.



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[The_Ryan]

Well I don't necessarily agree especially the grocery part. I do understand what you are saying.
But that's okay you like what you like. We can just agree to disagree on this subject.



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Tough to say without knowing his like 100% lol. I know I used to move a lot so having an SUV (02 Durango) at the time was much more handy than when I had to move with a Jetta. It certainly can be a pain to bend over and pull out and pick stuff up out of a trunk, especially if you’re tall.

ANYWHO,

@jeff the next EV you have to drive for us is the Porsche Taycan. Any initial thoughts on that?

 

[jeff]

Well I don't necessarily agree especially the grocery part. I do understand what you are saying.
But that's okay you like what you like. We can just agree to disagree on this subject.

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Well I do agree with you, I'd have bought the Stinger, but it's my wife's car so she chooses.

I guess I'm just saying I get the logic of people who make that choice. And after 2 decades of unloading stuff from trunks I'll say there is some truth to the benefit of being able to do so without bending over. My wife has been pregnant 6 times, it takes a toll on the body. And she weights 105 lbs so any momentum/posture/lifting benefit available is important. That said I still love crunching my body into my Fiesta every time.