Just drove a Tesla Y and Chevy Bolt

[jeff]

Sometimes I have time to spare and enjoy seeing what the hype is all about. One day in the future I plan to have a couple of gas cars in the stable and a full EV for around town stuff. Also rebuilding a few old Insights in the last few months has me interested in EVs more and more.

Anyway my friend just bought a Model Y and let me drive it. It was the ~375tq version, dual motor but not the "performance" one. It's a stunning car, of course acceleration is immediate and silky smooth. Boom, you're doing 70mph from a start, no drama. Nice nice nice. The future. Felt like an appliance. Hard to have passion for the car...I know it sounds weird but as good as it is it just felt plastic. No gas, no sass. Coming from the Fiesta ST though I'm an enthusiast and love niche cars. So the Tesla feels a bit like a refrigerator. Very nice just provides no connection. Not saying it's bad, just kind of "meh, yeah it's fast and all the rage but meh" feeling.

Chevy Bolt...I've been interested in these since they debuted and made "Car of the Year" on Motortrend. So I had some time and drove one today. They're super cheap (MSRP $40k, can be had for $23k new) because (a) everyone wants a Tesla and (b) they are catching on fire so people don't want to buy them. Found a 2017 with 25k, loaded trim, for $15k. So cheap. But, the fires. But...it's a very very nice car. Like the Tesla it feels synthetic and like an appliance. But acceleration is insane and instant, the car is super quiet, roomy, and just very well designed. Maybe I'd buy one when the time is right if they get the battery issues sorted out. This car is a great starter EV. It's 60% of a Tesla for 30% of the price.

Anyhow...there's some car banter for today. Glad to own a Fiesta ST!

 

[The_Ryan]

A coworker of mine occasionally takes his wife's Bolt to autocross. Does pretty good. Have they updated the interior of the bolt at all?
I remember I sat in one at a car dealership and it seemed like they tried extra hard and forced "THIS IS AN EV" into the design language.

 

[Capri to ST]

Your review of these cars confirms when I have thought about them, that while they might objectively have decent performance, they would feel like appliances. For me getting one would constitute giving up the idea of driving a car that I enjoy, and just deciding all I want is the simplest transportation possible. I rarely drive more than 30 miles, and the thought of having no engine to maintain is somewhat attractive, but I am nowhere close to wanting one of these cars.

 

[Dpro]

The Mustang Mach E is getting a lot of good reviews in comparison to the Tesla. The word is the Mach E is actually fun and totally out handles the Tesla maybe a test drive of one of those would provide another prospective.
I know they are officially sold out of the first run. lol Ford may actually have hit a home run with the car.

 

[Ford ST]

I'm not the biggest fan of electric cars and I can't see myself buying one of the more expensive/premium models. With that said I do feel like electric vehicles can make some vehicles better to drive. These new vehicles coming equipped with micro turbocharged engine especially in heavier vehicles feel terrible just plain awful. Those vehicles in electric versions could actually be a lot better. If I had a choice between a electric vehicle that had power to move, or a 1.4 turbocharged engine I'm looking at you Volkswagen yeah I'll take the electric version.

Now there is no way on this Earth I would ever buy the mustang E it just sickens me they turned the mustang into that. If you wanted to make a high performance electric mustang we would have been cool, but the moment you turned into an SUV nope fuck you.

Sent from my LG-LS997 using Tapatalk

 

[Dpro]

I'm not the biggest fan of electric cars and I can't see myself buying one of the more expensive/premium models. With that said I do feel like electric vehicles can make some vehicles better to drive. These new vehicles coming equipped with micro turbocharged engine especially in heavier vehicles feel terrible just plain awful. Those vehicles in electric versions could actually be a lot better. If I had a choice between a electric vehicle that had power to move, or a 1.4 turbocharged engine I'm looking at you Volkswagen yeah I'll take the electric version.

Now there is no way on this Earth I would ever buy the mustang E it just sickens me they turned the mustang into that. If you wanted to make a high performance electric mustang we would have been cool, but the moment you turned into an SUV nope fuck you.

Sent from my LG-LS997 using Tapatalk

Ya totally see and agree with you. I have never been a fan of electric vehicle’s I am more on the hybrid tip. But... hybrids that are done right. I would not buy a Mach E either and the fact that they kinda SUV’d the Mustang probably has Lee Iacocca doing barrel rolls in his grave.
But hey the average Joe which I am not seems to be on board. screw me.

 

[jeffreylyon]

I have a Nissan Leaf for a commuter, not that I'm doing much of that these days. It's a perfect car for a boring commute - good throttle response for stop and go traffic, comfortable seats, heated steering wheel, Apple Play, good stereo, etc. If I had to do it all over again I wouldn't change a thing except maybe wait for the model with the larger battery for more range.

It is, for sure, an appliance.

 

[M-Sport fan]

A coworker of mine occasionally takes his wife's Bolt to autocross. Does pretty good. Have they updated the interior of the bolt at all?
I remember I sat in one at a car dealership and it seemed like they tried extra hard and forced "THIS IS AN EV" into the design language.

HA! One would think that vehicle would be much more of a 'rollover threat' than even a BASE Fiesta, as per the other thread.
(But maybe the heavy battery being soooo low in the chassis gives it a decent cg??)

But, it is one of the very few CUVs that don't look too horrid to me, aesthetically (as in; like the upper model Konas).

 

[M-Sport fan]

Ya totally see and agree with you. I have never been a fan of electric vehicle’s I am more on the hybrid tip. But... hybrids that are done right. I would not buy a Mach E either and the fact that they kinda SUV’d the Mustang probably has Lee Iacocca doing barrel rolls in his grave.
But hey the average Joe which I am not seems to be on board. screw me.

Hey, THIS one I would not mind too much (LOL);

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZUwRnBhtevE

 

[jeff]

They're not for me right now at this stage in life but I get the appeal. For someone who wants to have a little fun but not think or interact with the car/road much this would be great. I realize not all people are gear heads like me who enjoy changing their own oil.

EVs seem to be disposable cars. I can't imagine what they're going to do with all the Teslas and Leafs (Leaves?) and Bolts in 15-20 years. Software updates might not work on outdated hardware. Battery cost might make them unreplaceable. I read a Bolt battery was >$10000. If I can get a brand new Bolt for $23000 why would I spend nearly half that for just a battery for an older lesser car? Not to mention the touchscreens and other proprietary tech that will not be cheap if even available on these cars 15 years from now.

That's why they're disposable.

Counterpoint, my G1 Honda Insight 5-speed is similar in some ways but parts can be found due to the niche collectors out there such as myself (only 17000 were made total) who are storing them up. You just have to understand that YOU ARE THE MECHANIC. But EVs won't evolve that way, there are so many hundreds of thousands of them, they are too complicated and vanilla, they will end up in landfills, replaced by a newer model.

 

[Dpro]

They're not for me right now at this stage in life but I get the appeal. For someone who wants to have a little fun but not think or interact with the car/road much this would be great. I realize not all people are gear heads like me who enjoy changing their own oil.

EVs seem to be disposable cars. I can't imagine what they're going to do with all the Teslas and Leafs (Leaves?) and Bolts in 15-20 years. Software updates might not work on outdated hardware. Battery cost might make them unreplaceable. I read a Bolt battery was >$10000. If I can get a brand new Bolt for $23000 why would I spend nearly half that for just a battery for an older lesser car? Not to mention the touchscreens and other proprietary tech that will not be cheap if even available on these cars 15 years from now.

That's why they're disposable.

Counterpoint, my G1 Honda Insight 5-speed is similar in some ways but parts can be found due to the niche collectors out there such as myself (only 17000 were made total) who are storing them up. You just have to understand that YOU ARE THE MECHANIC. But EVs won't evolve that way, there are so many hundreds of thousands of them, they are too complicated and vanilla, they will end up in landfills, replaced by a newer model.

Correction the batteries will end up in landfills the rest of the car will get recycled.

 

[jeffreylyon]

Correction the batteries will end up in landfills the rest of the car will get recycled.

This has been an anti-EV argument for a long time. The reality is that, even now, EV batteries are being up-cycled for grid storage and there are many efforts to figure out how to effectively reclaim the materials found in lithium batteries. With some countries mandating that all new cars be EV by as early as 2035 there's lots of motivation to find a cheaper, cleaner source of lithium.

 

[Dpro]

This has been an anti-EV argument for a long time. The reality is that, even now, EV batteries are being up-cycled for grid storage and there are many efforts to figure out how to effectively reclaim the materials found in lithium batteries. With some countries mandating that all new cars be EV by as early as 2035 there's lots of motivation to find a cheaper, cleaner source of lithium.

I know I was half joking and like you alluded too their is a lot of R&D going on to bring about better battery tech thats less impactful.

 

[ronmcdon]

I'm on the fence with this one.

I don't own a tesla but a relative of mine has a 3 performance. She wanted an EV for some reason and didn't want something large. The car does everything well enough. competes respectfully with the m3, ats-v, rs5, etc and is actually cheaper. despite it being 4000 lbs, the lower center of gravity makes it seem more nimble than it's weight implies. It does pretty good with lap times at track events. It has a growing aftermarket support.

however driving it my impression was that it feels more disconnected than I'd prefer. I can't say it's not a fun car, but I had pretty high hopes and found myself walking away a bit disappointed. the lack of drama when accelerating I think is a love it or hate it thing. I do love how quiet the car is though. I think one needs to drive one to really tell if it's for them. Maybe if I spent more time with said model 3 I would appreciate it more.

also have to give props to tesla for making a performance sedan and not only SUVs. Nobody is doing that right now except for porsche and the taycan is closer to double the price of a model 3 performance.

 

[The_Ryan]

HA! One would think that vehicle would be much more of a 'rollover threat' than even a BASE Fiesta, as per the other thread.
(But maybe the heavy battery being soooo low in the chassis gives it a decent cg??)

But, it is one of the very few CUVs that don't look too horrid to me, aesthetically (as in; like the upper model Konas).

It certainly is hilarious to watch. But I imagine the low batteries keep the CG low. The thing looks good out there though. He normally has a miata that he takes out, and is a course designer/very experienced, so I trust his judgement on taking the thing. He even has a set of wheels wit RE71Rs on it

They're not for me right now at this stage in life but I get the appeal. For someone who wants to have a little fun but not think or interact with the car/road much this would be great. I realize not all people are gear heads like me who enjoy changing their own oil.

EVs seem to be disposable cars. I can't imagine what they're going to do with all the Teslas and Leafs (Leaves?) and Bolts in 15-20 years. Software updates might not work on outdated hardware. Battery cost might make them unreplaceable. I read a Bolt battery was >$10000. If I can get a brand new Bolt for $23000 why would I spend nearly half that for just a battery for an older lesser car? Not to mention the touchscreens and other proprietary tech that will not be cheap if even available on these cars 15 years from now.

That's why they're disposable.

Counterpoint, my G1 Honda Insight 5-speed is similar in some ways but parts can be found due to the niche collectors out there such as myself (only 17000 were made total) who are storing them up. You just have to understand that YOU ARE THE MECHANIC. But EVs won't evolve that way, there are so many hundreds of thousands of them, they are too complicated and vanilla, they will end up in landfills, replaced by a newer model.

Didn't Tesla say that they design the batteries to last over 200k miles? Also, there is a chevy bolt with 300k on the clock and the battery health is good. Also, there is a good video explaining how and why EV batteries are recycled and don't end up in a landfill

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1mXSMwZUiCU


While I understand how you might feel EV's are "Disposable" I think we're overestimating the amount of degradation that occurs in batteries. I think this may be because a lot of the data provided for degradation is provided for worse case scenarios, and manufacturers have new sales incentives to not warranty batteries for life (which I think they should and could get away with). I know the solar power pumping systems I've designed and installed typically have 10yr warranty on the batteries if batteries are used. And even after then, the warranty is applied for a certain % of degradation, meaning they often hold some useful charge still. I've seen some old ass systems running what looked like their original batteries so I think with the improvements in battery tech, EV batteries will mostly be fine past their warranty mark.

With that in mind and less moving parts, I'd imagine EV's would be even less disposable than ICE vehicles.

It's a little disheartening to see so much hate on the EV's here! As much as I like my IC engines, electric is the future, we can hop aboard the train and make things cooler by demanding more enthusiast oriented EV's, or cling to our ICE as we watch the auto industry leave us behind as it devolves into lame appliance status.

Like @Ford ST said, I'd much prefer EV to the pathetic turdo charged engines being plopped into the bloated CUV's.

 

[LilPartyBox]

The FiST was the start of a minimalist approach to life for me. A way to satisfy my need for speed while minimizing my carbon footprint, to a degree. Electric is the next logical step albeit with it's own environmental caveats. Regardless, I envision a day when the roof of my house is covered in solar panels and my cars are charged "naturally". But all this talk of appliance like driving now has me a bit concerned. I assumed instant torque and sub 4 second 0-60 times must be fun....right? I always feared what you have said OP. Not fun, but rather a detached vanilla experience.

I am keeping a close eye on the Mach-E. It sounds like it may have a sporting character - for an electric anyway. And yea, bastardizing the Mustang name for an electric and an SUV no less, is pure madness. But ignoring that detail and looking at the vehicle on its on merits makes me believe it may become the best of breed at its price point. I love the look of the GT with its faux grill and hunkered down stance wrapped around big wheels. I would never replace my FiST with it. But if its a prelude of what's to come, I can't help but get excited for the future of electric.

I'm not a tree hugging fanatic but my hi-flow DP is indeed catted. I can admit that if we keep shitting on this planet with reckless abandon that it will shit back. So as a loooong time enthusiast I keep an open mind. If pedestrian electric cars are already sub 4 second, imagine what it will be in 5 years when we get a real electric hot hatch or rwd coupe that can lay down strips of rubber with a wiggle of my big toe...now that might not be so vanilla. And refilled by an array of limitless solar power sounds like a recipe for constant, unadulterated pedal mashing - powered for "free" by the sun.

My only fear is working on a 240V (or higher) system and frying the skin from my body. As was an issue with Tesla, shop manuals for the electric may be even harder to come by making wrenching on one of these a higher risk. But i'll cross that grave when i get there.

 

[jeffreylyon]

HA! One would think that vehicle would be much more of a 'rollover threat' than even a BASE Fiesta, as per the other thread.
(But maybe the heavy battery being soooo low in the chassis gives it a decent cg??)

I've driven lots of different cars in anger - little open wheel formula cars, big V10 lawyer-killers, front-, mid-, rear-engine cars. Lots of different formulas. Some I really liked, some scared the shit out of me, but they all felt as though physics had a role in their behavior. The Tesla S I drove did not. Weight didn't transfer in a way that made any sense to my brain. It felt heavy but, at the same time, like roll-in was really quick. Maybe that was due to the weight being so low or that there are more nannies than in a German Kindergarten, but it was weird. I'm not sure that I hated it.., but I think that I did.

At any rate, it didn't roll much at all. Neither does my Leaf even though it's a really tall car. I suspect that the Bolt is similar.

I can't wait for someone that I know to do a Miata EV conversion with a little 10-20 KW battery for track work. That would be a case-of-beer-per-lap ride! PittRace even has 240VAC outlets for top-ups!

 

[jeffreylyon]

My only fear is working on a 240V (or higher) system and frying the skin from my body. As was an issue with Tesla, shop manuals for the electric may be even harder to come by making wrenching on one of these a higher risk. But i'll cross that grave when i get there.

Short of battery changes or upgrades, I'm not sure there's much wrenching to do on the powertrain. The suspension, brakes, etc. are the same as an ICE, or they will be until the motor-in-hub stuff hits the market, although I don't imagine that we'll see such in any performance/every-day application.

 

[The_Ryan]

I've driven lots of different cars in anger - little open wheel formula cars, big V10 lawyer-killers, front-, mid-, rear-engine cars. Lots of different formulas. Some I really liked, some scared the shit out of me, but they all felt as though physics had a role in their behavior. The Tesla S I drove did not. Weight didn't transfer in a way that made any sense to my brain. It felt heavy but, at the same time, like roll-in was really quick. Maybe that was due to the weight being so low or that there are more nannies than in a German Kindergarten, but it was weird. I'm not sure that I hated it.., but I think that I did.

At any rate, it didn't roll much at all. Neither does my Leaf even though it's a really tall car. I suspect that the Bolt is similar.

I can't wait for someone that I know to do a Miata EV conversion with a little 10-20 KW battery for track work. That would be a case-of-beer-per-lap ride! PittRace even has 240VAC outlets for top-ups!

I'm pretty sure you could manage a miata EV conversion. There's an electric motorcycle with a pretty compact little motor you can throw into one. Rich Rebuilds on youtube did a sub $3k conversion on an R53 mini cooper. Was a great little series for that car

 

[jeffreylyon]

I'm pretty sure you could manage a miata EV conversion. There's an electric motorcycle with a pretty compact little motor you can throw into one. Rich Rebuilds on youtube did a sub $3k conversion on an R53 mini cooper. Was a great little series for that car

There are turn-key packages available and I'm pretty good with a wrench, but my wife sneers at the caged FiST in the garage, rolls her eyes at the MGB hill climber, and growls at the CB750 mono-shock conversation in process. I don't want to push my luck any further...