Intake and exhaust real world performance. Let's get to the nitty gritty

[Jepoe0108]

EXHAUST

How restrictive is the factory exhaust? Is the catalytic converter the main piece that's restrictive? Does our factory exhaust flow as well as any after markets? I am in for performance gains. Probably won't be Upgrading the turbo but will be fully bolted. If I go catless and and fully bolted, minus the factory CbE, am I restricting myself? Do all of the aftermarket CBE flow just as well as each other? Talk sheer power.

INTAKE
What has shown the best gains? Do people build their own? In other words, is it more effective to run a mishimotoninduction hose, a green filter, and velossatech snorkel? Sound doesn't matter. Just looking for the most effective intake setup. I know a lot of companies are producing short ram warm air intakes that make our cars sound like a 78mm spooling on a 2jz, which is awesome, but what setup is the best performance minded? Talk sheer power.

 

[Hijinx]

Sheer power: cat back exhaust, 0whp. Go for 2JR, beware of the sound though. It sits in the cowl and induction noises travel up the a-pillars creating a wicked loud noise in the car. Imagine sitting next the wings in a prop-plane or at the back of a jet plane; it's that loud.


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[Jepoe0108]

There's some permanent modification required? Is there any gains shown over say, Cobb?

 

[Kazz]

Sheer power: cat back exhaust, 0whp.

I know I've not been here long. But that flies in the face of what I've been reading while here.

 

[jeff]

I have a CP-E intake and a BIG MOUTH snorkel. I've seen multiple data that demonstrate small gains from the CP-E. They are small, but they are there. But as Hijinx said there are more significant proven gains from the 2JR intake, if you can take the noise.

As for the exhaust, I'm not a believer that any CBE exhaust will help on a stock turbo. My tuner looked at my logs before and after adding my exhaust and couldn't find any more power. I do think a downpipe (especially catless) adds gains but they are not in the part of the power band where it is useful.

All of that applies to stock turbo. Upgrade the turbo and the story changes.

 

[Jepoe0108]

So theoretically, "stages" are irrelevant. No need to retune with intercooler, piping, intake. They can just support a more aggressive tune.

Modern Automotive Performance appears to offer a very aggressive tune for a stock car with the AP3 from them.

I could handle the noise, but not into hacking up my car for it.

So the point I am seeing is the most gain is from the 2j-r, and the short ram is not as good as the stock setup with a drop in?

 

[Kazz]

I am curious, since you brought this topic up, will you get more gains from a tune or from an intake replacement? Goodness knows the tune will improve drivability immensely.

 

[jeff]

So theoretically, "stages" are irrelevant. No need to retune with intercooler, piping, intake. They can just support a more aggressive tune.

Modern Automotive Performance appears to offer a very aggressive tune for a stock car with the AP3 from them.

I could handle the noise, but not into hacking up my car for it.

So the point I am seeing is the most gain is from the 2j-r, and the short ram is not as good as the stock setup with a drop in?

For our car I would think of using the word stages less as an incremental increase in power and more as a way to define what hardware you have on the car. A few years ago everyone thought it was all about the stages but now we pretty much all agree that that was really a marketing ploy and even a stock car with no hardware can get tuned and have the same horsepower and torque numbers as a car at stage III.

I would think of a tune more as optimizing safety and performance. If you're going to squeeze out more power though, an upgraded intercooler is a necessity for reliability and keeping things cool.

Short answer, if you don't care about noise, get a better intercooler and a custom tune, you will be happy. Small increases can be had from other hardware but you have to decide if it's worth your money.

 

[Jepoe0108]

For our car I would think of using the word stages less as an incremental increase in power and more as a way to define what hardware you have on the car. A few years ago everyone thought it was all about the stages but now we pretty much all agree that that was really a marketing ploy and even a stock car with no hardware can get tuned and have the same horsepower and torque numbers as a car at stage III.

I would think of a tune more as optimizing safety and performance. If you're going to squeeze out more power though, an upgraded intercooler is a necessity for reliability and keeping things cool.

Short answer, if you don't care about noise, get a better intercooler and a custom tune, you will be happy. Small increases can be had from other hardware but you have to decide if it's worth your money.

That's what I was getting at.

So in short, upgrade the intercooler to lower the charge temp, so it would be going backwards to short ram, and anything else aside from that is aesthetic. The larger core will help you support and sustain increased power from tuning. Would a catless downpipe be the best increase in the exhaust department for a tune?

 

[Hijinx]

I know I've not been here long. But that flies in the face of what I've been reading while here.

You can believe MAP if you want. I haven't reviewed that thread in a while but there were holes in their "testing" done by Adam. It's a can of worms, and I'd like to avoid making this into a big deal. A member actually sent me his vdynos, testing on the Stage 1 OTS like MAP/Adam did, privately and there were virtually no gains, but he didn't wish to start a firestorm then, and I don't want one now.

Here's what I know: you can make big power on the stock CBE. For both CBE and intakes, there's a negligible change in VE requiring no calibration changes. The only exception is 2JRs intake.


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[Jepoe0108]

You can believe MAP if you want. I haven't reviewed that thread in a while but there were holes in their "testing" done by Adam. It's a can of worms, and I'd like to avoid making this into a big deal. A member actually sent me his vdynos, testing on the Stage 1 OTS like MAP/Adam did, privately and there were virtually no gains, but he didn't wish to start a firestorm then, and I don't want one now.

Here's what I know: you can make big power on the stock CBE. For both CBE and intakes, there's a negligible change in VE requiring no calibration changes. The only exception is 2JRs intake.


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So, let's simplify and say a lot of parts are signature fillers.

Aside fromnintercooler, is the charge piping necessary? I've noticed a bit of heat soak. I'm a bang for the buck guy. I'd rather save 600 bucks and have 2hp less.

What's it gonna realistically take to land 200 at the wheels and 300 ft/lb?

 

[Hijinx]

So, let's simplify and say a lot of parts are signature fillers.

Aside fromnintercooler, is the charge piping necessary? I've noticed a bit of heat soak. I'm a bang for the buck guy. I'd rather save 600 bucks and have 2hp less.

What's it gonna realistically take to land 200 at the wheels and 300 ft/lb?

Simply put, hard charge pipes are not necessary. Some anecdotal evidence: I run 32-34psi (@~4500rpm-7200rpm) on the stock charge pipes, aside from the hot side connected to the turbo. So, my cold side is stock, and I'm using the stock silicone that connects to the intercooler. I have never had a pipe blow.

Realistically, to net ~200whp/300wtq you'll need a good intercooler, a downpipe and a Cobb Accessport tuner with an ethanol mix tune.


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[Jepoe0108]

Simply put, hard charge pipes are not necessary. Some anecdotal evidence: I run 32-34psi (@~4500rpm-7200rpm) on the stock charge pipes, aside from the hot side connected to the turbo. So, my cold side is stock, and I'm using the stock silicone that connects to the intercooler. I have never had a pipe blow.

Realistically, to net ~200whp/300wtq you'll need a good intercooler, a downpipe and a Cobb Accessport tuner with an ethanol mix tune.


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How realistic is running ethanol daily? I don't see the availability here in central Alabama.

What's the reality on 93 octane?

Who makes the better intercooler? I like MAP but at the same time, the previous post and the can of worms that can follow, is just rather look elsewhere..

Downpipe can stay catted?

What's the efficiency on stock turbo as far as increasing the boost?

 

[Hijinx]

How realistic is running ethanol daily? I don't see the availability here in central Alabama.

What's the reality on 93 octane?

Who makes the better intercooler? I like MAP but at the same time, the previous post and the can of worms that can follow, is just rather look elsewhere..

Downpipe can stay catted?

What's the efficiency on stock turbo as far as increasing the boost?

My car is registered in Montgomery, AL. No emissions testing for AL [emoji41]. Check this out:

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[Jepoe0108]

My car is registered in Montgomery, AL. No emissions testing for AL [emoji41]. Check this out:

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How does that feel compared to stock?!

 

[Sourskittle]

You can believe MAP if you want. I haven't reviewed that thread in a while but there were holes in their "testing" done by Adam. It's a can of worms, and I'd like to avoid making this into a big deal. A member actually sent me his vdynos, testing on the Stage 1 OTS like MAP/Adam did, privately and there were virtually no gains, but he didn't wish to start a firestorm then, and I don't want one now.

Here's what I know: you can make big power on the stock CBE. For both CBE and intakes, there's a negligible change in VE requiring no calibration changes. The only exception is 2JRs intake.


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This sums up everything that I believe this is perfectly said.

If I was on a stock turbo I would probably not change anything but the intercooler and add methanol injection with a pro tune and some ethanol mixed in

 

[Hijinx]

How does that feel compared to stock?!

I'd have to make assumptions since I haven't been on stock turbo in a while, so someone else would need to comment for legitimacy. But an educated guess would say a kick to the face, especially with some sticky tires.


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[Jepoe0108]

I'd have to make assumptions since I haven't been on stock turbo in a while, so someone else would need to comment for legitimacy. But an educated guess would say a kick to the face, especially with some sticky tires.


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You've given me a lot of good info. I'll check out deadhook or something similar. Looks like good product too!

 

[OffTheWall503]

So theoretically, "stages" are irrelevant. No need to retune with intercooler, piping, intake. They can just support a more aggressive tune.

Modern Automotive Performance appears to offer a very aggressive tune for a stock car with the AP3 from them.

I could handle the noise, but not into hacking up my car for it.

So the point I am seeing is the most gain is from the 2j-r, and the short ram is not as good as the stock setup with a drop in?

"Stages" are simply a marketing tool to make modifications understandable to the average consumer. In relativity to power and tuning, it really has no bearing on what your outcome will be, when we're talking about OTS tunes anyway. The cost/power ratio is also quite significant if you're just looking at Cobbs stage packages. Prices below also include the Cobb Accessport, which you can find deals on if you shop around or buy used.

Stage 1 - drop-in air filter, rear motor mount, OTS tune ($650)
Stage 2 - Intake, catback exhaust, accompanying tune ($1760)
Stage 3 - Downpipe, front mount intercooler, charge pipes ($2960)

TheSmokingTire, comparisons of stock and stage 3, then a 100 octane protune

I don't know about you, but $3000 is a huge price to pay for 26hp and 50tq. Of course, you can duplicate the "stages" with significantly cheaper parts and get the same or better results. Heck, get an E30 tune and drop-in air filter and you'll be close to 99% of the power level full bolt-on guys are making and only down $500 to $750 (flash vs pro tuning, cost varies between tuning companies). Though, upgrading your intercooler would make your power more consistent. Cooling upgrades in the long run will probably provide the consistency in power year-round because stock components are known to heatsoak quickly.

 

[Jepoe0108]

"Stages" are simply a marketing tool to make modifications understandable to the average consumer. In relativity to power and tuning, it really has no bearing on what your outcome will be, when we're talking about OTS tunes anyway. The cost/power ratio is also quite significant if you're just looking at Cobbs stage packages. Prices below also include the Cobb Accessport, which you can find deals on if you shop around or buy used.

Stage 1 - drop-in air filter, rear motor mount, OTS tune ($650)
Stage 2 - Intake, catback exhaust, accompanying tune ($1760)
Stage 3 - Downpipe, front mount intercooler, charge pipes ($2960)

The Smoking Tire, comparisons of stock and stage 3

I don't know about you, but $3000 is a huge price to pay for 26hp and 50tq. Of course, you can duplicate the "stages" with significantly cheaper parts and get the same or better results. Heck, get an E30 tune and drop-in air filter and you'll be close to 99% of the power level full bolt-on guys are making and only down $500 to $750 (flash vs pro tuning, cost varies between tuning companies). Though, upgrading your intercooler would make your power more consistent. Cooling upgrades in the long run will probably provide the consistency in power year-round because stock components are known to heatsoak quickly.

I can do the ethanol research but is this just something that's fairly common? I don't feel like I see any ethanol anywhere down here?