I hate torque vectoring!!!1

[robbie_d]

The brakes get hot when used to stop.
The brakes get hot when the car is using its "e-differential"
The brakes get hot when it's adjusting the line in turns.
The brakes get hot when stability control is intervening.
The brakes get hot ALL THE DAMN TIME! Accelerating, turning and braking, the only time our brakes aren't working is on the straights. (Some of this can be turned off I think. E-diff can be neutralized by totally disabling TC..?)

I see why Ford did what it did, mass market reasoning, but the ST's rely A LOT on the brakes. Do other manufactures use brake based interventions to "improve" driving experience? If so, are other forums seeing overheat issues when pushed hard? Is it a cost savings deal? There are better ways than brakes to deal with the issues... but Ford found out how to use already existing technology already on the car to add some sporting nature to an ecobox mobile.


(I don't track my car. Sorry, it's hard for me to see it from the racer viewpoint. If I raced, I would likely be right along side the frustrated members.)

 

[Kazz]

It would be nice if it's use was something that could be logged. Then some of the guessing game about when, how much, etc. could go away, not to mention if changes/upgrades lessen it's impact.

 

[AlrightyThen]

I would also LOVE to be able to turn torque vectoring completely off! I track my car a few time a year and the torque vectoring cooks my front brakes. I've also experienced some real weird behavior on a wet track where it feels like I'm being "pulled" places. Torque vectoring is a smart trick for making the car feel lively on the street, but I feel like it really holds the car back on the track when you start stiffening up the suspension and adding sticky tires. I'd love a solution in the form of an "off" button.

 

[Jim88GT]

The brakes get hot when used to stop.
The brakes get hot when the car is using its "e-differential"
The brakes get hot when it's adjusting the line in turns.
The brakes get hot when stability control is intervening.
The brakes get hot ALL THE DAMN TIME! Accelerating, turning and braking, the only time our brakes aren't working is on the straights. (Some of this can be turned off I think. E-diff can be neutralized by totally disabling TC..?)

I see why Ford did what it did, mass market reasoning, but the ST's rely A LOT on the brakes. Do other manufactures use brake based interventions to "improve" driving experience? If so, are other forums seeing overheat issues when pushed hard? Is it a cost savings deal? There are better ways than brakes to deal with the issues... but Ford found out how to use already existing technology already on the car to add some sporting nature to an ecobox mobile.


(I don't track my car. Sorry, it's hard for me to see it from the racer viewpoint. If I raced, I would likely be right along side the frustrated members.)

Porsche uses it too. I think it is cool the ST uses it to help turn-in. That is why the ST does not feel like a typical front wheel drive.

Porsche Torque Vectoring (PTV) and Porsche Torque Vectoring Plus (PTV Plus)



PTV (with manual transmission) or PTV Plus (with PDK) is available as standard in the S models and as an option for the 911 Carrera 4 models. Both systems actively enhance vehicle dynamics and stability. Operating in conjunction with a rear differential lock, they work by intelligently braking the rear wheels as the situation demands.

When the car is driven assertively into a corner, moderate brake pressure is applied to the inside rear wheel. Consequently, a greater amount of drive force is distributed to the outside rear wheel, inducing an additional rotational pulse (yaw movement) around the vehicle?s vertical axis. This results in a direct and sporty steering action from the turn-in point.

With PTV, the rear differential lock is regulated mechanically, while PTV Plus is equipped with electronic control offering fully variable torque distribution. In interaction with Porsche Stability Management (PSM), the system improves driving stability not least on road surfaces with varying grip as well as in the wet and snow.

For the driver, this means strong resistance to destabilising side forces, outstanding traction and great agility at every speed ? with precise turn-in and well-balanced load transfer characteristics. What else? Tremendous fun in the corners.

I am used to rear wheel drive cars. In the Mustang I use the break and the gas at the same time in a turn to balance the car. In the ST If I give it a little brake in a turn while on the gas it kills the power. I wish that could be turned off.

 

[OffTheWall503]

There is a ABS module for B-Spec racing that gets rid of the TV, TC, and ESC. IDK if the TV processing happens in there or the ECU but that module has a lot to do with this. I cannot tell you it is safe to use this on the street though, so do your research.

http://www.motoiq.com/MagazineArtic...e-Kit-and-a-Ford-Racing-Brake-Controller.aspx

Where can you find this? My Google searching only indicates one for the Mustang.

EDIT: Found it here - http://www.tascaparts.com/brake-kits-components/fiesta-race-abs-module/m-2c405-fab/?parent=1023

$258 isn't bad. Where is the ABS module located?

 

[Siestarider]

The solution for those who hate TVC is install a LSD. TVC is not defeated, but neither is it invoked often or much. Every now and then I accidentally invoke wheel spin in low gears on street in slippery conditions and both wheels spin. So its street friendly too, not just a track mod. But for me its by far the best track mod, better than anything else I have installed.

I tried logging front wheel speed independently on track and could not tease out TVC effects once LSD was in.

That B spec module that pre-dated our car will not fit. Lots of old discussion about it, I am sure search will find them.

 

[ian.j]

Lsd is not the solution. I have one and with 350whp the tvc kills my brakes.

 

[OffTheWall503]

Just confirmed, the ABS module is only compatible with 11-13 Fiesta models AND it's also discontinued.

 

[Siestarider]

Lsd is not the solution. I have one and with 350whp the tvc kills my brakes.

Do I recall correctly you track your car quite a bit?

I wonder if your hp/tq is so good you are spinning outside wheel out of turns? Maybe there is a limit beyond which even with LSD doing its job, TVC interferes by trying to alternate control of wheelspin?

My comments relate to about 200 whp, if I experience more brake wear with C39 on I will report.

 

[AlrightyThen]

I just want to be able to turn it off, but keep by abs and airbags. Unfortunately I don't have the technical know how to achieve that. Does anyone here? I feel like if someone brought a solution to market there would be buyers like me.

 

[Waterfan]

Alternatively/Additionally, you could add some brake cooling deflectors and/or ducts...(didn't read entire thread, may be a redundant idea)

 

[scotman]

[MENTION=3995]jeff[/MENTION]reylylon, You're onto something. I'd like to pinpoint how exactly our torque vectoring works. If indeed the system works off wheel spin, then I would agree with you for sure. But I have also heard that our TVC is tied to ABS, and detects difference in wheel speeds that way. Gotta find an answer.

With all that said, it was a wet day and there was some wheel spin. But enough to cook a wheel... you think? It wasn't like I was lighting up my tires through turns or anything like that.

Regardless of the mode selection, wheel speed is always being compared. Little corrections are being made ALL THE TIME. That is the stability control at work. Even in a straight line, this effect is at work. My data logging had some limitations in channel capacity. But I believe that even side winds at speeds above approximately 50mph also tend to excite it. I really like the Fiesta. But, I have a calculator from the dollar store and it told me I could buy a Mustang or build a analog car for about what it will cost to make the Fiesta Almost reliable to track.

 

[Siestarider]

Regardless of the mode selection, wheel speed is always being compared. Little corrections are being made ALL THE TIME. That is the stability control at work. Even in a straight line, this effect is at work. My data logging had some limitations in channel capacity. But I believe that even side winds at speeds above approximately 50mph also tend to excite it. I really like the Fiesta. But, I have a calculator from the dollar store and it told me I could buy a Mustang or build a analog car for about what it will cost to make the Fiesta Almost reliable to track.

I have a 2014 FIST I began tracking in 2015 and have about 25 track days in. After the first 5, I put Quaife in. Since then, nothing but fun. I have tried all kinds of cooling, aero, brake, suspension, and turbo mods, with no failures except for turbo mods. Stock turbo has always been 100% on Cobb S3 and 93 oct gas. Running it right now, hoping my C39 ends up back on the car.

I enjoy experiments and record lots of data to understand them. Street is just not experiment friendly at the speeds needed to prove one thing or another.

I am not always quick, love 4 wheel drifts too much, but if I buckle down concentrate and drive the line, I can run consistent good lap times. My take is you will not find a more competent street/track car for the money in the market today, either purchase and operating costs.

The electronic nannies are here to stay. I have comfort knowing they are there on street. Turn them off on track, still a residue, but the next generation is going to be worse, count on it. Just like manual shifting is going away. Because the new paddle autos are quicker.

 

[scotman]

I understand you completely....

I have a 2014 FIST I began tracking in 2015 and have about 25 track days in. After the first 5, I put Quaife in. Since then, nothing but fun. I have tried all kinds of cooling, aero, brake, suspension, and turbo mods, with no failures except for turbo mods. Stock turbo has always been 100% on Cobb S3 and 93 oct gas. Running it right now, hoping my C39 ends up back on the car.

I enjoy experiments and record lots of data to understand them. Street is just not experiment friendly at the speeds needed to prove one thing or another.

I am not always quick, love 4 wheel drifts too much, but if I buckle down concentrate and drive the line, I can run consistent good lap times. My take is you will not find a more competent street/track car for the money in the market today, either purchase and operating costs.

The electronic nannies are here to stay. I have comfort knowing they are there on street. Turn them off on track, still a residue, but the next generation is going to be worse, count on it. Just like manual shifting is going away. Because the new paddle autos are quicker.

I had to remain aware of the decending resale value of FWD manual transmission hatchbacks and increasing cost and number of components needed to achieve a reasonable degree of track competence and reliability. The Fiesta is fun as a street car and occasional weekend autocross toy. I won't be selling it. It makes the perfect garage mate for a v8 Mustang.

 

[Joker328]

I haven't read through this whole thread, so forgive me if someone else has made this point already: If TVC is engaging to the point that you are cooking your brakes, then you are driving too fast for the course given the capabilities of the car. People like to complain about TVC, but it is designed to keep the car rotating through a turn in situations when a FWD car would normally understeer. If you didn't have TVC, you would have to drive slower in order to avoid going wide in a corner, especially on exit when you are under full throttle and the weight shifts back. So you have a choice of either entering the corner slower and/or on a wider line, or having the TVC help you maintain traction on all 4 wheels and risking premature brake fade. Before TVC, it was often necessary to left foot brake in order to help the car rotate, but that heats up the brakes even more than TVC. TVC is a more efficient solution that takes some of the skill out of it but makes the car more fun for your average driver. Now of course the ideal solution is to install a LSD which will help the car put down power AND rotate efficiently without cooking brakes, but the cost of that is not for everyone.

 

[scotman]

I haven't read through this whole thread, so forgive me if someone else has made this point already: If TVC is engaging to the point that you are cooking your brakes, then you are driving too fast for the course given the capabilities of the car. People like to complain about TVC, but it is designed to keep the car rotating through a turn in situations when a FWD car would normally understeer. If you didn't have TVC, you would have to drive slower in order to avoid going wide in a corner, especially on exit when you are under full throttle and the weight shifts back. So you have a choice of either entering the corner slower and/or on a wider line, or having the TVC help you maintain traction on all 4 wheels and risking premature brake fade. Before TVC, it was often necessary to left foot brake in order to help the car rotate, but that heats up the brakes even more than TVC. TVC is a more efficient solution that takes some of the skill out of it but makes the car more fun for your average driver. Now of course the ideal solution is to install a LSD which will help the car put down power AND rotate efficiently without cooking brakes, but the cost of that is not for everyone.

I agree with your points. But the cooling system is not track capable. The oil cooler being a liquid to liquid type and the coolant capacity being minimal plus the weak ass coolant reservoir all add to cost of upgrades. It's not just TV.

 

[M-Sport fan]

I had to remain aware of the descending resale value of FWD manual transmission hatchbacks and increasing cost and number of components needed to achieve a reasonable degree of track competence and reliability. The Fiesta is fun as a street car and occasional weekend autocross toy. I won't be selling it. It makes the perfect garage mate for a v8 Mustang.

I see your point, as the V-8 'Stang road race world is EXTREMELY WELL supported by the aftermarket, both in actual hard mods, AND in volume lessened cost 'consumables'.

I know MANY (on here, and elsewhere) have exceptional fun and success running these cars at road courses, but to me at least, they would not be my first choice for a dedicated, track only car, (even with the requisite Torsen type diff installed) but yes, that is mostly due to my bias against FWD for this exclusive purpose.

 

[scotman]

I see your point, as the V-8 'Stang road race world is EXTREMELY WELL supported by the aftermarket, both in actual hard mods, AND in volume lessened cost 'consumables'.

I know MANY (on here, and elsewhere) have exceptional fun and success running these cars at road courses, but to me at least, they would not be my first choice for a dedicated, track only car, (even with the requisite Torsen type diff installed) but yes, that is mostly due to my bias against FWD for this exclusive purpose.

Don't get me wrong. I'm not at all against a fwd race car. For ice racing they are hands down the quickest, if prepared right. It's just the cost to make my Fiesta even just semi reliable is beyond reason for a dual purpose car.

 

[Siestarider]

This cooling problem is very interesting. So far, I track successfully in S Fla in summer just by sealing all the gaps in nose so all the high pressure air has to bear on heat exchangers, plus running the heater full blast.

I have also thought about locating a second coolant tank in tire well just to add volume to fluid in a better balanced location. I do not carry a spare tire.

I am intent upon lightest car I can have and it must be a DD. Be interesting to see what it costs to run Fist vs 'Stang on track. I prefer RWD on track but have developed a real fondness for FWD, in part because I love pressing BMW's with a car that cost half or less as much. Must be snobbish in some weird way. But great fun. Why I want my C39 back, we are handicapped on long straights.

 

[ThaiFiesta]

So far, I track successfully in S Fla in summer just by sealing all the gaps in nose so all the high pressure air has to bear on heat exchangers, plus running the heater full blast.

What have you found is the best method for sealing the gaps?