Fiesta ST Spark plug tech

[JPGC]

I think NGK LTR7IX is the wrong plug for own Ecoboost engine fellas. I brought a set and noticed a difference in the centre electrode design.
I ran the plugs anyway but I notice it was a little harder to start from cold and run on 3 cylinders sometimes for a few seconds.

The OEM plug have a projected centre electrode, these do not. Link to NGK, http://www.ngk.com.au/spark-plugs/technical-information/projection

Image I took so you can see what I mean. OEM plug on the left.

View attachment 2688

Sekred,
It looks like you are right about it being the wrong plug for these engines. I emailed NGK and got an answer from them. The response is below...

Hello,

Thank you for your inquiry, however we currently do not have a heat range colder replacement for this spark plug that is quite the exact fit. The original spark plug for this application uses an extended thread shell that part number LTR7IX-11 does not have. The use of the non-extended thread shell can lead to issues with deposit build up on the spark plug that can increase chances of fouling and the possibility of hot spots for pre-ignition.

Regards,

Rob MacDonald
Technical & Training Specialist
NGK Spark Plugs U.S.A. INC. || http://www.ngksparkplugs.com
46929 Magellan Dr. || Wixom, MI 48393
OFFICE: 248-926-7104

 

[RAAMaudio]

pelotonracer2
01-26-2014, 12:48 PM
"Ok, after some research (and some info passed on from another forum) using the Mazda MS3 as the application, I have found the following spark plugs that will work in our FiST that is one step colder than stock: Denso itv22 or NGK LTR7IX-11 I'm going to remove a plug from my car right now to get visual confirmation that it is the same. I'm going to order $100.00 worth of these plugs and try to get them indexed where I want them.
Perry"

Then there was some talk about which brand is better so I went with the NGK like others have done, my car runs very well on them.

The more important question seems to be not so much as to whether the plugs are the same fit in how far they enter the combustion chamber but if they are further in are the benefits greater than any deficits?

 

[JPGC]

pelotonracer2
01-26-2014, 12:48 PM
"Ok, after some research (and some info passed on from another forum) using the Mazda MS3 as the application, I have found the following spark plugs that will work in our FiST that is one step colder than stock: Denso itv22 or NGK LTR7IX-11 I'm going to remove a plug from my car right now to get visual confirmation that it is the same. I'm going to order $100.00 worth of these plugs and try to get them indexed where I want them.
Perry"

Then there was some talk about which brand is better so I went with the NGK like others have done, my car runs very well on them.

The more important question seems to be not so much as to whether the plugs are the same fit in how far they enter the combustion chamber but if they are further in are the benefits greater than any deficits?

I agree, as my car seems to run well on them too. I had about 3000 or so miles on my NGK LTR7IX-11's before I removed them to check them and my tune. There was no hint of any carbon build up. So I pulled the stockers back out and put the NGK's back in.

 

[BoostBumps]

Sekred,
It looks like you are right about it being the wrong plug for these engines. I emailed NGK and got an answer from them. The response is below...

Hello,

Thank you for your inquiry, however we currently do not have a heat range colder replacement for this spark plug that is quite the exact fit. The original spark plug for this application uses an extended thread shell that part number LTR7IX-11 does not have. The use of the non-extended thread shell can lead to issues with deposit build up on the spark plug that can increase chances of fouling and the possibility of hot spots for pre-ignition.

Regards,

Rob MacDonald
Technical & Training Specialist
NGK Spark Plugs U.S.A. INC. || http://www.ngksparkplugs.com
46929 Magellan Dr. || Wixom, MI 48393
OFFICE: 248-926-7104

Hey thanks for posting...

I was on the fence and ready to purchase these specific NGK type plugs (LTR7IX) myself up until about a week ago...But after doing some further research and having some discussions with a few experienced FiST / FoST tuners I was told to be careful as they also pointed out that their was a significant difference in "reach" between our stock plug and the NGK LTR7IX plug and it was strongly recommended not to use this specific type of NGK plug for the very reasons NGK just reiterated above...So for now I think I'll stay with the stock plugs until a suitable replacement is made available...

 

[Sourskittle]

The ngk's lower the compression ratio, which means more boost on pump gas, lol

 

[airjor13]

I'm running the NGK's, it's definitely smoother than stock.

 

[RAAMaudio]

No offense meant in the least but I have to bring this up due to experience with far to many "experienced" tuners, etc...that were not always correct.

Are these experienced tuners experienced on this particular engine, tuning, plugs.....?

They may be right but they may be wrong if they are speculating without really knowing.

Obviously I am not talking about anyone specifically, I just want to know for sure the best way for us all to know we are picking the best plugs for our needs.

Sincerely,
Rick

 

[Hijinx]

Rick, there is some proof in the pudding and is verified by NGK themselves that they don't make a plug for our vehicle. Sure it works, but is it optimal is what's in question. On top of that, if our plugs are the same as the regular Fiestas are the OEM ones even optimal? Is one range colder what should actually be in the vehicle making two ranges colder more appropriate? Questions, questions...

 

[Sekred]

pelotonracer2
01-26-2014, 12:48 PM
"Ok, after some research (and some info passed on from another forum) using the Mazda MS3 as the application, I have found the following spark plugs that will work in our FiST that is one step colder than stock: Denso itv22 or NGK LTR7IX-11 I'm going to remove a plug from my car right now to get visual confirmation that it is the same. I'm going to order $100.00 worth of these plugs and try to get them indexed where I want them.
Perry"

Then there was some talk about which brand is better so I went with the NGK like others have done, my car runs very well on them.

The more important question seems to be not so much as to whether the plugs are the same fit in how far they enter the combustion chamber but if they are further in are the benefits greater than any deficits?

Never trust a man that wears lycra shorts, lol.

Seriously, if no one else has had this cold start issue then I will put it done to the fact I am using Toluene which can cause this. By the way, its spring here so a cold start is about 70f. I never had this problem with Subies (toluene) but it appears GDI has its own unique issues.

 

[RAAMaudio]

Yes, a very interesting topic here, what we get for having a limited production car with limited experience on the mods that will work or not but it is part of the fun figuring things out

I have used or made hundreds of parts not made for a particular car or even brand so that part does not phase me in the least, just another way to do things.

 

[FORZDA 2]

I have 7+ years of experience with DISI engines and about 10 months on the Ford. I only have ~42 different "tune" variations I've run in my own car. I'm running ~25+ psi boost with the "TIP Desired" set to 40.14 psi. The Ford is the same in concepts, principles, and much of the functional specifications. There is nothing new under the sun, only retries of previously failed attempts only with better tools/materials. The colder spark plug debate here is just that, a theoretical debate. There are so many subjective statements here in this forum that it is ridiculous. "It runs smoother with the NGKs", well that is pure placebic bullshit.

The factory tune allows 20psi of boost for every idiot that drives, so a colder plug may be of some benefit if you're running 30+ psi on a race track with WOT for several miles at a time = FACT. If the car was tuned for only 6 psi and you were running 20+, then you may find a point where a colder plug is beneficial.

The manufacturers have to deal with every idiot that drives, so they make products and statements that are as conservative as possible. Yeah, I'm an old prick and have little patience for idiots, but I don't give a shit. I'll bow out and let the newbs figure these basics out for themselves, so I don't want to cut their throughts and watch them bleed out.

 

[airjor13]

 

[JPGC]

I have 7+ years of experience with DISI engines and about 10 months on the Ford. I only have ~42 different "tune" variations I've run in my own car. I'm running ~25+ psi boost with the "TIP Desired" set to 40.14 psi. The Ford is the same in concepts, principles, and much of the functional specifications. There is nothing new under the sun, only retries of previously failed attempts only with better tools/materials. The colder spark plug debate here is just that, a theoretical debate. There are so many subjective statements here in this forum that it is ridiculous. "It runs smoother with the NGKs", well that is pure placebic bullshit.

The factory tune allows 20psi of boost for every idiot that drives, so a colder plug may be of some benefit if you're running 30+ psi on a race track with WOT for several miles at a time = FACT. If the car was tuned for only 6 psi and you were running 20+, then you may find a point where a colder plug is beneficial.

The manufacturers have to deal with every idiot that drives, so they make products and statements that are as conservative as possible. Yeah, I'm an old prick and have little patience for idiots, but I don't give a shit. I'll bow out and let the newbs figure these basics out for themselves, so I don't want to cut their throughts and watch them bleed out.

The only useful information I got out of this was:

"The factory tune allows 20psi of boost for every idiot that drives, so a colder plug may be of some benefit if you're running 30+ psi on a race track with WOT for several miles at a time = FACT. If the car was tuned for only 6 psi and you were running 20+, then you may find a point where a colder plug is beneficial."

So what is your recommendation with your 7+ years of experience with DISI engines and about 10 months on the Ford? Stay with the stock plugs? Some of us newb idiots who imagine placebic bullshit need a direct answer. ***rolleyes***

 

[razorlab]

This thread has now moved out of tech and into comedy. At least for me.

 

[JPGC]

This thread has now moved out of tech and into comedy. At least for me.

You ain't kidding, lol.

 

[FORZDA 2]

Stock plugs are fine and will give you no problems, unless you fubar the tune or decide to run flatout across Arizona in the summer time.

I recommend you guys dig into the ATR and try some tuning on your own. If you back the TIP Desired down to around 35 psi you can't hurt anything and you can see the results of the changes you make. It will REALLY help you guys understand "tuning". A tune is nothing more making mostly simple adjustments to the parameters to meet your goals. More power? More fuel mileage? More linear throttle response?

I have made many changes in the Throttle Requested Torque, Torque to Load and Load to Torque tables. If you log the ETC you will see that the throttle plate goes WOT way too early. It cause boost spikes, oscillations, knock(timing retard), throttle closings if near the max TIP, etc.

What it does do is give the driver a feeling that there is a lot more power available when indeed there isn't. The stock turbo runs out of breath at about 21 Lb/min Mass Air Flow which is pretty low in general terms. I've run the WGDC over 90% at WOT just to see if the turbo can keep up and it can't. That isn't a huge problem, but it is the primary limit on power, not the "bolt-on" mods. You must move lots of air through the engine to make power.

I do recommend the largest FMIC that can be fitted though. I run the Cobb, but there are several more out there that will work well. The stock FMIC cools the air well enough at lower (stock) air flow rates, but it can't pass enough air (and cool it) to keep up with higher boost/flow rates.

 

[FORZDA 2]

This thread has now moved out of tech and into comedy. At least for me.

If you're not having fun it becomes "work" and that sucks when there is no pay involved.

I have autocrossed my FiestaST when completely stock, well except of the OZ wheels and Dunlop Star Specs. Made it out to 2 local events at the OK SCCA site. Took 2 first place finishes in class and 8th and 3rd in the PAX overall. I know I'm rambling, but I can do that if I want to. I'm old...

 

[Sekred]

The Spark plug is dead, long live the Spark plug.

[video=youtube_share;XLpsDq5Vy-8]http://youtu.be/XLpsDq5Vy-8[/video]

 

[razorlab]

If you're not having fun it becomes "work" and that sucks when there is no pay involved.

100% agree with that, my friend.

 

[JPGC]

Stock plugs are fine and will give you no problems, unless you fubar the tune or decide to run flatout across Arizona in the summer time.

I recommend you guys dig into the ATR and try some tuning on your own. If you back the TIP Desired down to around 35 psi you can't hurt anything and you can see the results of the changes you make. It will REALLY help you guys understand "tuning". A tune is nothing more making mostly simple adjustments to the parameters to meet your goals. More power? More fuel mileage? More linear throttle response?

I have made many changes in the Throttle Requested Torque, Torque to Load and Load to Torque tables. If you log the ETC you will see that the throttle plate goes WOT way too early. It cause boost spikes, oscillations, knock(timing retard), throttle closings if near the max TIP, etc.

What it does do is give the driver a feeling that there is a lot more power available when indeed there isn't. The stock turbo runs out of breath at about 21 Lb/min Mass Air Flow which is pretty low in general terms. I've run the WGDC over 90% at WOT just to see if the turbo can keep up and it can't. That isn't a huge problem, but it is the primary limit on power, not the "bolt-on" mods. You must move lots of air through the engine to make power.

I do recommend the largest FMIC that can be fitted though. I run the Cobb, but there are several more out there that will work well. The stock FMIC cools the air well enough at lower (stock) air flow rates, but it can't pass enough air (and cool it) to keep up with higher boost/flow rates.

Thank you. This is a post that I can respect. I also have ATR and have been experimenting with it. It is time consuming with the trial and error but definitely a good thing to learn.