Fiesta ST autocross accident

[kevinatfms]

Watch it from the beginning at slower speeds. The amount of steering input just doesn't match typical vehicle response. That setup is altered for sure.

They listed the setup above. Guy went taller on the tire and soften on the front spring(Eibach). Recipe for disaster.

 

[skold]

People often let emotions cloud rational and logical thinking/judgement. That sounds like what OP may be doing here. I'm glad the guy is OK overall. Cars don't roll themselves over, people roll cars over.

 

[Shikari]

Racing risks crashing. If you're not willing to crash your car then don't race it.

Also, during the course walk someone should've pointed out the patched hole. I would've talked to the officers about my concerns of grip changes mid turn and that it needs to be corrected. If no-one is taking the course walk seriously enough to notice that kind of issue, then the group putting on the event needs to be talked to.

 

[M-Sport fan]

Given the correct circumstances (totally wrong setup, very sticky tires, driver blunders, course irregularities, too much speed for the turn, etc.) for it happening, even his much worshiped CTR WILL roll, despite it's wider stance/track, IRS, and lower cg.

Hell, multi-million dollar (Euro/Mark??) aerodynamic wonder 'pancake cars' like the LMGTP class Merc CLRs have flipped at high speed given the air hitting them the wrong way, or complete driver error.

But yeah, the info on what NOT to do regarding setups should be broadcast, loud and clear to everyone autocrossing (or open tracking) our rides.

 

[Dpro]

Given the correct circumstances (totally wrong setup, very sticky tires, driver blunders, course irregularities, too much speed for the turn, etc.) for it happening, even his much worshiped CTR WILL roll, despite it's wider stance/track, IRS, and lower cg.

Hell, multi-million dollar (Euro/Mark??) aerodynamic wonder 'pancake cars' like the LMGTP class Merc CLRs have flipped at high speed given the air hitting them the wrong way, or complete driver error.

But yeah, the info on what NOT to do regarding setups should be broadcast, loud and clear to everyone autocrossing (or open tracking) our rides.

Ya OP came on with an Agenda and did not want to listen to any of that. Dare he post here and actually get a critique and analysis of why his friend rolled his FiST .

 

[SteveS]

Thing is, we've already known all this since 2015... https://www.fiestastforum.com/threads/fist-rollover-risk.6166/
And there hasn't really been any noise about it since then, so (almost) everybody took the information into consideration and hasn't rolled their Fiesta ST since then.

 

[Dpro]

Thing is, we've already known all this since 2015... https://www.fiestastforum.com/threads/fist-rollover-risk.6166/
And there hasn't really been any noise about it since then, so (almost) everybody took the information into consideration and hasn't rolled their Fiesta ST since then.

Well thats pretty much why most of us came out of the gate questioning and analyzing . It was like we have seen this before and seen the reasons. Plus the fact that their are a few that even tempt folly for the sake of it albeit are quite good drivers and fast as well.

The OP did not do his homework and pretty much treated us like we were completely ignorant about our own cars. Its like no I would have never guessed my car was kinda tall and without being properly equipped if pushed too hard in bad conditions would roll.

Dare I say he kinda treated us with contempt and acted like we were doing that too him. When no one actually acted in a contemptuous fashion towards him. He pretty much took it personally.

 

[Ecmdrw5]

Maybe we should put a disclaimer on the Cars For Sale page that it’s highly likely the car might flip over for no reason.


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[Woods247]

Setup info from the YouTube post is below. He was wearing a racing harness and had a good helmet. He broke 4 ribs and had other abrasions. He is an
experienced driver. Tire pressures were checked before the run and the surface did not contribute to the rollover.

205/50/16 RE71R's on 7 inch rims
Eibach sport springs
Koni yellow shocks
Eibach rear sway bar
Cobb intake
generic muffler delete cat back
Cobb stage 1 tune

This probably what caused your buddy to wad himself up:
205/50/16 RE71R's on 7 inch rims
Eibach sport springs

Glad to hear he’s all good. I’ve had broken ribs and a punctured lung and it sucks for a few months but it heals. I am curious as to what broke his ribs and which harness he was using. Was he pinned under the steering wheel? I know the question is graphic, but it’s important for us to know why his injuries were so severe and why it took so long for them to get him out. This is most concerning to me. Feel free to PM me if you don’t want to post it here.

I track frequently (not AutoX) and haven’t experienced two wheel situations unless I was jumping inside rumble strips. For example, turn 3 at Road Atlanta is a jump for both passenger wheels. When they land it’s an immediate hard left into T4 then back right into the Esses (wot 3rd to 4th). I do this all the time hauling ass with no problems, but my car’s suspension is corner balanced and I have appropriate tire pressures and an alignment for that track. Those things change depending on where I’m tracking.

I agree with what others have said. His car was setup incorrectly for its intended use. Feel free to stick around and read a little more in our track section to gain more knowledge before discounting its abilities and suggesting it’s unsafe. We’re not dicks here but we are passionate about our cars and a lot of us push them to limits frequently. We’re not just being dismissive and defensive. Many of us have had them for many years and competed in everything from rallyX to time attack. The Fiesta is a pretty incredible and competitive little car. It’s too bad your buddy was unaware of this forum before he installed progressive springs and a tall extremely sticky tire then (perhaps) over drove it (according to some of our AutoX guys). You can’t do that to a Fiesta without bad consequences. Thankfully he’s on the mend. Take care.

 

[pixelzombie]

I'm a newbie to any sort of track or autocross events, but I don't see how such a tall tire will help in such an event.

 

[the duke]

Hell, multi-million dollar (Euro/Mark??) aerodynamic wonder 'pancake cars' like the LMGTP class Merc CLRs have flipped at high speed given the air hitting them the wrong way, or complete driver error.

Leave Mark Weber out of this!
Besides, I believe it was more to do with porposiging over the crest on the Mulsaane straight and pressure spike/deltas causing the flip due to the lack of diffusers/expansion chamber.

Maybe we should put a disclaimer on the Cars For Sale page that it’s highly likely the car might flip over for no reason.
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We need a blipshift shirt of a Fiesta on it's roof. No explanation, total inside joke.

I'm a newbie to any sort of track or autocross events, but I don't see how such a tall tire will help in such an event.

Gearing. Larger circumference, less of a need to shift. Chasing peanuts on my mind however.

 

[ToastAutoX]

I'm always glad to see more discussion regarding rollovers, my research came to the same conclusions as many others in this thread: R-compound tires w/o proper suspension consideration.
As for all the flak regarding steering input: while the driver certainly wasn't being smooth, no properly prepared car should roll regardless of input.

Glad the driver made it out with minimal injury. I'll continue to autocross mine with that much more knowledge under my belt, thanks OP.

 

[WutApex]

What's considered a tall tire? I'm looking at 200 wear 225/45s once my 15x8 Dekas come in.

I'm running 100% stock suspension w/ rear camber plates. What else needs to be done suspension-wise to stabilize the platform?
- front camber settings?
- chassis bracing?
- Swift springs (with stock dampers)?
- would like to hear more on the "huge" front sway bar? I'd think that would cause excessive understeer; however, maybe with sticky 225s, that could balance the increased rear grip, right??

I'm not inexperienced at the track, but my crew chief handled most of my suspension setup. On top of that, I am totally new to tracking FWD...

 

[TyphoonFiST]

Maybe I missed it....But I didn't see it asked if he disabled the Ford AdvanceTrac stability system?

 

[Intuit]

I did mention it, but didn't ask it. I don't recall how, (maybe an ABS fuse pull,) but that takes more effort to disable.

EDIT: I also brought up the possibility of an "ST-Line" vehicle. (I don't think it is one though.)

BTW and as @PunkST mentioned, having over-pressurized the already light-weight rear, spare tire removed, the back-end easily gets loose on stock setup. Found that out a couple of years ago, driving aggressively, immediately following a swap back to my Summer set, where the rear went on the front and front on rear; didn't yet set my pressures. Compared to engine and driver, there really isn't a lot of weight over that axle.

Style wasn't the sole reason manufacturers have drastically cut sidewall. They figured out that the suspension systems provide a lot more stability and control; that which is compromised by having more sidewall. Completely different type of tire aside, I notice a *lot* of difference between 205/40R17 and 215/45R17.

We also need to consider the possible impact of swapping brake setups... will that affect stability control and if so, how might it impact it?

 

[TyphoonFiST]

I did mention it, but didn't ask it. I don't recall how, (maybe an ABS fuse pull,) but that takes more effort to disable.

EDIT: I also brought up the possibility of an "ST-Line" vehicle. (I don't think it is one though.)

BTW and as @PunkST mentioned, having over-pressurized the already light-weight rear, spare tire removed, the back-end easily gets loose on stock setup. Found that out a couple of years ago, driving aggressively, immediately following a swap back to my Summer set, where the rear went on the front and front on rear; didn't yet set my pressures. Compared to engine and driver, there really isn't a lot of weight over that axle.

Style wasn't the sole reason manufacturers have drastically cut sidewall. They figured out that the suspension systems provide a lot more stability and control; that which is compromised by having more sidewall. Completely different type of tire aside, I notice a *lot* of difference between 205/40R17 and 215/45R17.

We also need to consider the possible impact of swapping brake setups... will that affect stability control and if so, how might it impact it?

What was the difference felt between the two sizes of tires?

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[The_Ryan]

Here's why lowering too much AND without a proper adjustment in spring rate will cause more roll over. The distance between the center of gravity and the rolling center in a car (overly simplified: point where the car body rotates about) can increase a lot when the car is lowered too much. This means there is a larger moment arm on the car's rolling center (think longer wrench, more leverage). This causes more body roll. Normally it's combatted with higher stiffer springs. However when paired with progressive rate springs there is even less resistance to rolling, even more so when changing directions as the spring that is rebounding has a higher rate than the spring that is being loaded.

See images of a more extreme example (lowered by 4.3") below
.


Suspension geometry stuff is still pretty new to me so if anyone else has more insight on this, that'd be great

 

[The_Ryan]

What's considered a tall tire? I'm looking at 200 wear 225/45s once my 15x8 Dekas come in.

I'm running 100% stock suspension w/ rear camber plates. What else needs to be done suspension-wise to stabilize the platform?
- front camber settings?
- chassis bracing?
- Swift springs (with stock dampers)?
- would like to hear more on the "huge" front sway bar? I'd think that would cause excessive understeer; however, maybe with sticky 225s, that could balance the increased rear grip, right??

I'm not inexperienced at the track, but my crew chief handled most of my suspension setup. On top of that, I am totally new to tracking FWD...

I'd not even ask this question in the forums, too many people who haven't tracked their vehicle will give you input as if they did. I'd ask anyone local at the track first though. If you have FB, there's a separate page for ST/RS track/auto-x drivers who have helped me with a lot of questions.

 

[ToastAutoX]

Some great insights @The_Ryan , thanks for typing them out.

Makes me re-examine my setup more closely. I am on Bilstein progressive springs (lowered) with soft compound tires, ran the last couple of autocrosses like this which sounds on paper like a recipe for disaster. Truth be told I think what saves my bacon is A) I'm not slammed and B) been autocrossing for over a decade and don't have terrible input.

I'm probably raising up the car on all corners another .25", both for daily driving comfort and to keep the body roll geometry more stock. Stronger away bars are probably also in my near future, even though I find the car rotates properly with the stock setup (and loads/unloads nicely with smooth input).

Edit: I was on 205/45/16 on a 7" rim. You can definitely feel the sidewall flex but I kept things on the inflated side. Just sold this setup actually... need to show the new owner this thread so he doesn't set himself up poorly.

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[The_Ryan]

Some great insights @The_Ryan , thanks for typing them out.

Makes me re-examine my setup more closely. I am on Bilstein progressive springs (lowered) with soft compound tires, ran the last couple of autocrosses like this which sounds on paper like a recipe for disaster. Truth be told I think what saves my bacon is A) I'm not slammed and B) been autocrossing for over a decade and don't have terrible input.

I'm probably raising up the car on all corners another .25", both for daily driving comfort and to keep the body roll geometry more stock. Stronger away bars are probably also in my near future, even though I find the car rotates properly with the stock setup (and loads/unloads nicely with smooth input).

Edit: I was on 205/45/16 on a 7" rim. You can definitely feel the sidewall flex but I kept things on the inflated side. Just sold this setup actually... need to show the new owner this thread so he doesn't set himself up poorly.

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205/45-16 is shorter setup than stock, and I was planning on running 215/45 next season (still slightly shorter than stock) What tire were you running that you felt sidewall flex?

Also, I'm sure there is a point where lowering goes from positive to negative impact on handling, which might explain why you feel that the setup as been working great for you. I'm lowered on Swift springs and the car feels 10x more stable than it did with the stock setup, so we both may be just be at at a good height.

But where that crossover point is? I'm not sure, that's were I was hoping someone with more experience might be able to answer. I'm going to go find a book on this stuff. Got plenty of time to kill while cooped up at home