Ecoboost Intake Valve Carbon build up ?

[Quisp]

No you need someone to actuate pedal. It's going to bog down and can't excede 3k so they have to be somewhat competent.

 

[BeansNCornbread]

Just a heads up M1 appears to have changed add packs with the new one have around 3,000ppm of calcium and no or little magnesium so it may promote intake valve and combustion chamber deposits now per the studies.

 

[Wimp Lo]

At this point I'm leaning against getting an OCC.

That seems like an odd way to lean.

Valve deposits get to the valves 100% through the PCV system. We have passive EGR done with cam phasing so PCV is it.

I need to do more oil research to determine if I want to change but a good OCC is a no brainer.

 

[dyn085]

That seems like an odd way to lean.

Valve deposits get to the valves 100% through the PCV system. We have passive EGR done with cam phasing so PCV is it.

I need to do more oil research to determine if I want to change but a good OCC is a no brainer.

Entirely disagree. The majority of build-up is caused by the valve overlap, not the PCV. An OCC has yet to be shown to improve anything because we haven't even defined the problem we're trying to resolve. If it makes people feel better and gives them a place to spend their money then that's great, but manual cleaning or replacement is going to be necessary regardless.

 

[FORZDA 2]

[MENTION=1686]FORZDA 2[/MENTION] can you explain more about the cap you created and how to attach it? I'm coming up on an oil change soon and for $10 this is an easy preventative maintenance kind of thing. At some point I'd like to do the walnut blast thing but don't even know where the crank bolt is to close the valves. Is the throttle accessible in the engine bay on a throttle by wire vehicle?


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Here is a link to coolant bypass caps http://www.autozone.com/cooling-hea...ord=bypass+cap&fromString=search&newYmme=true You need one in 3/4 inch ID.

This is the manifold fitting that you remove and slip the bypass plug onto the nipple. Just use an ice pick or even a small drill bit to push a hole through the cap to insert the straw. This photo also includes my boost gauge tap "T" in the hard line.

 

[alf45]

Here is a link to coolant bypass caps http://www.autozone.com/cooling-hea...ord=bypass+cap&fromString=search&newYmme=true You need one in 3/4 inch ID.

This is the manifold fitting that you remove and slip the bypass plug onto the nipple. Just use an ice pick or even a small drill bit to push a hole through the cap to insert the straw. This photo also includes my boost gauge tap "T" in the hard line. View attachment 9707

What tee and line did you use for your boost gauge ?

 

[FORZDA 2]

What tee and line did you use for your boost gauge ?

Universal black plastic T from any auto parts store vacuum accessories area. Cut the small ends off as needed to fit it into the space you cut in the hard line. You must cut the hard line and section out about 1", then use short sections of ~ 5/16" hose to connect the T. The 1/8" boost/vac sensor line goes through the firewall at the soft rubber area for heater hoses and to wherever you mount your gauge. Mine is on the dash in line-of-sight.

 

[Wimp Lo]

Entirely disagree. The majority of build-up is caused by the valve overlap, not the PCV. An OCC has yet to be shown to improve anything because we haven't even defined the problem we're trying to resolve. If it makes people feel better and gives them a place to spend their money then that's great, but manual cleaning or replacement is going to be necessary regardless.

So I guess if I send you the contents of my catch can you would be OK with heating it up to engine temperature and spraying it in your intake manifold while the engine is running?

 

[dyn085]

So I guess if I send you the contents of my catch can you would be OK with heating it up to engine temperature and spraying it in your intake manifold while the engine is running?

Yeah, I would definitely let the OEM catch system deal with it because at least then it's getting drained back into the sump for re-use. I'll probably pull my intake at 30k and take a look but so far there hasn't been any pics of valves showing that this is actually a huge issue to begin with. When the problem is defined then I will worry about solving it, which is only solve-able by an actual cleaning or complete replacement anyways, but until then I'll save my money and time.

If it gives you peace of mind then great, but both of my ST's have quality oil and are driven at operating temperatures regularly. The only other reason I can think of to actually use an OCC would be to correct my octane but neither of my cars are full-on racecars so I just tune accordingly.

 

[timboslice]

Yeah, I would definitely let the OEM catch system deal with it because at least then it's getting drained back into the sump for re-use. I'll probably pull my intake at 30k and take a look but so far there hasn't been any pics of valves showing that this is actually a huge issue to begin with. When the problem is defined then I will worry about solving it, which is only solve-able by an actual cleaning or complete replacement anyways, but until then I'll save my money and time.

If it gives you peace of mind then great, but both of my ST's have quality oil and are driven at operating temperatures regularly. The only other reason I can think of to actually use an OCC would be to correct my octane but neither of my cars are full-on racecars so I just tune accordingly.

All of the +1s.

 

[BeansNCornbread]

Yeah, I would definitely let the OEM catch system deal with it because at least then it's getting drained back into the sump for re-use. I'll probably pull my intake at 30k and take a look but so far there hasn't been any pics of valves showing that this is actually a huge issue to begin with. When the problem is defined then I will worry about solving it, which is only solve-able by an actual cleaning or complete replacement anyways, but until then I'll save my money and time.

If it gives you peace of mind then great, but both of my ST's have quality oil and are driven at operating temperatures regularly. The only other reason I can think of to actually use an OCC would be to correct my octane but neither of my cars are full-on racecars so I just tune accordingly.

The VW/AUDI guys got this covered. While good at mitigating fouling of coolers and turbos catch cans have shown NO MITIGATION of intake or combustion chamber deposits in GDI or TGDI. You are wise in your assessment of the device to this end.

 

[Rhinopolis]

So I guess if I send you the contents of my catch can you would be OK with heating it up to engine temperature and spraying it in your intake manifold while the engine is running?

I am no expert and am not attempting to weigh in beyond sharing what my catch can has caught in less than 1 year and roughly 3500 miles, which is right at 1 1/4 oz of "viscous brownish/black gasoline smelling liquid".

 

[TyphoonFiST]

So....I had an idea....how about one person from the forum commit to not getting an OCC and another get an OCC and utilize the cleaners that are available. And let's make sure that they start at the same mileage and use at least a 91 octane and see how much of a difference either of them really has on the 1.6l Ecoboost we have. And then take some readings at 15k.....30k......etc...etc....Sound good?

 

[DP03]

This thread has been an interesting read. A lot of theories yet unproven due to long term studies not yet done. So for me, I'm going by the facts, which up to this point, are that catch cans collect oil/gas blowby. I personally choose for that stuff to not be ingested by my engine, so I use a catch can. I have on every turbo car I've owned, and each one has collected and prevented stuff from entering the intake. When I installed my can at 4k miles, the PVC hose removed was soaked with oil. I think the one thing (and maybe the only thing) that everybody on this thread agrees with is that there is no downside to a catch can.

As for whether it's worth the cost is a personal decision. For me, it is. For those that think the vendor products are too expensive, these can be made very cheaply from home depot parts. I happen to like the Mishi design and look, and $200 and a do it in your sleep install was worth it.

It's interesting to see those complaining about the cost when I read their list of mods that cost thousands of dollars, many of which could be considered unnecessary and ineffective by others opinions. But money spent on cars is, and always will be, a personal choice.

So, if it makes you feel good to not spend the money, then don't do it.

 

[dyn085]

This thread has been an interesting read. A lot of theories yet unproven due to long term studies not yet done. So for me, I'm going by the facts, which up to this point, are that catch cans collect oil/gas blowby. I personally choose for that stuff to not be ingested by my engine, so I use a catch can. I have on every turbo car I've owned, and each one has collected and prevented stuff from entering the intake. When I installed my can at 4k miles, the PVC hose removed was soaked with oil. I think the one thing (and maybe the only thing) that everybody on this thread agrees with is that there is no downside to a catch can.

As for whether it's worth the cost is a personal decision. For me, it is. For those that think the vendor products are too expensive, these can be made very cheaply from home depot parts. I happen to like the Mishi design and look, and $200 and a do it in your sleep install was worth it.

It's interesting to see those complaining about the cost when I read their list of mods that cost thousands of dollars, many of which could be considered unnecessary and ineffective by others opinions. But money spent on cars is, and always will be, a personal choice.

So, if it makes you feel good to not spend the money, then don't do it.

Yes, I have spent a few bucks on my cars. The notable difference is that I never tell people that parts are mandatory, nor do I ever claim that anything I'm running is 'the best'. Everything I've purchased for my ST's have had a reason, whether that's increased power, turbo longevity, sound, or even simply just for looks, because these are all things I value and can put a price on.

And likewise, peace of mind can be bought as well. If the OEM system didn't already have a catch to drain back into the sump I might feel differently. If the valve overlap wasn't the majority of the cause of build-up I might feel differently. If we didn't already have a 150+k mile car showing basically no power loss then I might feel differently.

Basically, if the peace of mind wasn't based on a false sense of security then I might feel differently, but it is so I don't.

 

[jayrod1980]

@FORZDA what you did looks clean but I still don't see where the cap or caps are that you plugged the nipple too. I can only recognize that you put a "T" with another set of lines going toward the firewall.

Thanks again for your help!


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[Capri to ST]

I ran across this on BITOG, basically Ford was saying back in 2012 that their injection-timing calibration would help eliminate deposits in DI engines. Here's the quote:

Don't fret about deposits on the back of the intake valves that have plagued some other manufacturers' direct-injected gasoline engines, said Stephen Russ, the Duratec GDI's technical leader for combustion.

Although he called intake-valve deposits "a fact of life" for GDI engines because they lack the raw gasoline sucked in over the intake valves of a conventional port-injected engine to "wash" the valves, Ford's figured out the proper injection-timing calibration to help eliminate the problem.

But he also said the technology of injection components — particularly the high-pressure solenoid injectors — has quickly matured, meaning excess valve deposits should be a thing of the past.

here's the thread:
http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/2211055/1

 

[Capri to ST]

Found some more of this quote in the original article-

Russ said Ford’s using the latest-technology high-pressure fuel pump – it’s a single-piston unit driven by its own lobe on the exhaust camshaft – and new, 6-hole injectors that play a big role in avoiding intake-valve deposits. The system runs pressures 50 times that of conventional port fuel injection.

http://www.edmunds.com/autoobserver-archive/2011/03/fords-new-big-gun-in-small-car-engines.html

I don't have a technical background, so don't know if this is sound engineering or marketing, but it's reassuring to me that they have been thinking about this for some time,and attempting to find engineering solutions. I had seen references in earlier posts to Ford having advanced engine technology to deal with potential carbon buildup,this may be an early specific example.

Similar info from another article-
At the Detroit Auto Show in January, Ford was confident enough about its popular 3.5 liter EcoBoost direct-injection V6 to have technicians tear down an example engine that had accumulated the equivalent of 160,000 miles through an intentionally abusive regimen of log dragging, high-speed towing and desert racing. When they opened it up before a live audience, they found some light carbon deposits on the valves and pistons, but not enough to affect performance. In fact, the engine showed a loss of just one horsepower afterwards – roughly what Boyadjiev’s RS 4 engine lost every 500 miles.

Stephen Russ, technical leader for combustion for Ford’s 2-liter Duratec DI engine, said that similar to GM, engineers have determined the proper injection-timing calibration to help eliminate the carbon deposits. But Russ also said the technology of injection components – particularly the high-pressure solenoid injectors – has quickly matured, meaning excess valve deposits in most DI engines should become a thing of the past as these improved components are incorporated into production.
http://www.edmunds.com/autoobserver-archive/2011/06/direct-injection-fouls-some-early-adopters.html

It's interesting to me that Ford (and GM) have clearly done a much better job with this issue than Audi, VW, and BMW.

 

[dannyrevs]

Found this interesting. I run Marvel Mystery Oil in everything from my mowers to my motorcycle and have for years. My dad was a big fan of it used it in everything even air tools. So after learning of this issue I went to the MMO forums and found this interesting thread. http://www.marvelmysteryoil.com/index.php/forums/viewthread/533/

 

[Quisp]

There's youtube video's done by an independent guy on various cleaners including MMO. He boroscopes before and after. Their all disappointing.