Double adjustable possibility?

[awwwww_shift]

I know the CRD line is "double adjustable" with both adjustments adjusting at the same time.

Any chance this could be split to be a true double adjustable, and have jounce and rebound be seperate adjustments?

 

[Cligedy]

Edit: disregard, don't want to dump on Meister. Mods can delete.

 

[awwwww_shift]

Edit: disregard, don't want to dump on Meister. Mods can delete.

Have single adjustable Koni Sports for the car currently.
I'm just doing my research before hopping into a set of coils that I wouldn't be happy with. I've had similar setups before, and found the need to seperate the adjustments(I like a lot of rebound, and not so much compression).
Also, wanted to give a vendor a fair shake for my buisness.

 

[MeisterR]

Technically speaking, the MeisterR ZetaCRD is a "single" adjustable.
It just adjust compression and rebound force at the same time.

The reason of adjusting both force at the same time is because the ZetaCRD are design to keep the damping ratio closer to each other throughout the damping adjustment range.
Hence the CRD (Close Ratio Damping).

Koni is a completely different class of damper.
It is a twin-tube damper with rebound adjustment only, designed to use OEM and OEM style lowering springs.
It is very different from a mono-tube damper that have compression and rebound combined adjustment that are designed to use a much wider range of springs rate.

We designed the ZetaCRD to be a single adjustable for a very good reason, it is because it is easier to use.
I regularly get E-mail from people who need help adjusting their separate adjustable suspensions (KW V3 is the most common).
That is because they do not have the data on the force each adjustment produce, and therefore it literally become impossible to "tune" the damper.
You really cannot use "feel" to tune a separate adjustable damper, because what you feel is quite different from how the car work the tyres.

with a "single" adjustable, the damping ratio throughout the adjustment are pre-design within the internal.
And that mean you can move up and down the range and find what you like... what you prefer is something you can feel.
What ever that feels good to you should work, because all the adjustment setting was pre-designed to work, you just find the adjustment that fit you best.

We will do separate adjustable, but most likely a 3-way adjustable with remote canister.
But these are normally for racing use because there is no need to adjust the compression separately on a road car.

Jerrick

 

[awwwww_shift]

Technically speaking, the MeisterR ZetaCRD is a "single" adjustable.
It just adjust compression and rebound force at the same time.

The reason of adjusting both force at the same time is because the ZetaCRD are design to keep the damping ratio closer to each other throughout the damping adjustment range.
Hence the CRD (Close Ratio Damping).

Koni is a completely different class of damper.
It is a twin-tube damper with rebound adjustment only, designed to use OEM and OEM style lowering springs.
It is very different from a mono-tube damper that have compression and rebound combined adjustment that are designed to use a much wider range of springs rate.

We will do separate adjustable, but most likely a 3-way adjustable with remote canister.
But these are normally for racing use because there is no need to adjust the compression separately on a road car.

Jerrick

You'd be surprised as to the market on a double or even triple adjustable shock. There are getting to be lots of dedicated track focused cars being built every year, and the more advanced drivers in my area at least, tend to demand a double or even triple adjustment on their shocks. the more common being doubles.

And Koni sports are the single adjustables. I've had sports converted to double adjustment in the past with very good results. I'm a firm believer that if you are comfortable enough with 1 adjustment, but need more refinement, that's when you take the step to doubles. Koni 2812's are common as well as the 3011's in the series I run in, as well as AST, Moton, MCS, Penske, Olihns(sp), and others.

I'd be interested to see what you come up with for 3-way adjustable setups for this chassis...

 

[MeisterR]

You'd be surprised as to the market on a double or even triple adjustable shock. There are getting to be lots of dedicated track focused cars being built every year, and the more advanced drivers in my area at least, tend to demand a double or even triple adjustment on their shocks. the more common being doubles.

And Koni sports are the single adjustables. I've had sports converted to double adjustment in the past with very good results. I'm a firm believer that if you are comfortable enough with 1 adjustment, but need more refinement, that's when you take the step to doubles. Koni 2812's are common as well as the 3011's in the series I run in, as well as AST, Moton, MCS, Penske, Olihns(sp), and others.

I'd be interested to see what you come up with for 3-way adjustable setups for this chassis...

For me, a double adjustable damper just seems to be a waste.
As if you have a remote reservoir already, there are so little difference in cost between a 2-way and a 3-way setup.
For a race car, having that high-speed compression blow off is a real advantage.

The only real reason to have a 2-way setup is if you are racing with class restriction.
Certain class allows coilovers but restrict remote reservoir, so that is when an 2-way adjustable comes in handy.

Our 3-way setup will be the same as our technical parter remote reservoir setup, that is well used and proven.

The main thing with a 3-way adjustable is that it have to be tailored build around the entire car as well as the driver.
A damper is only as good as it's setting, and all a 3-way suspension give you is the ability to get closer to that "ideal" setting.

We already have all the tools available to produce the "GT3" if we want to.
Actually, we probably will be doing a few set in 2017 as got a few interests earlier this month at the Autosport show.

Jerrick

 

[awwwww_shift]

Very much agreed, and good info for a lot of people in here.

A lot of the sanctioning bodies that I know of,
a) have a restriction against remote reservoirs
b) have a points system that penalizes remote reservoirs
c) have a lot of racers not entirely ready to take the leap to 3-way adjustables(also, 2-way adjustables tend to be a little more price friendly, vs their 3-way counterparts.

One company that I've chatted with a bit here, MCS, offers to upgrade your current setup just for the difference in cost, as they use the same shock base to build all their setups(from the 1-way adjustable, all the way to their 3-way remote reservoir setups). They are a little pricey, but on the back end of their products, rebuilds are cheaper, and support is really good as well.

I see you have quite the presence on the forums, and the product tends to be a good entry level setup for a lot of people. I'm just on that upper edge, where something a little more "crazy" would benefit what I do with my cars...

Thank you for your honesty, time, and continued support here. I look forward to seeing what you guys come up with for that 3-way setup, and maybe a beta test opportunity in the states for a set?

 

[M-Sport fan]

Jerrick;

^^^Evolution 2.1 hillclimb car?

Do most people using their RS200s for tarmac use exclusively, convert to single coil overs per corner, or did the 'Evolution' mods done at Boreham do that as a matter of course?

Will your GT3s undercut the 3 way; Motons, Penskes, Reigers, and Ohlins on price?

 

[Plainrt]

I'm just on that upper edge, where something a little more "crazy" would benefit what I do with my cars...

I hope to see you at a local event next year to see what you do with your car.....

 

[MeisterR]

We will see, for now we want to concentrate on the GT1.
The GT3 very specialise and therefore it will be done on a custom build basis.
Because if we are going to custom build something, we are going to make sure it is going to be tailor made to fit.

As far as price goes, we will come in under all the big names for sure.

Another interesting thing I found earlier this month at the Autosport show.
One of the rather unique feature of the MeisterR GT1 dampers is that we use a double 44mm piston inside.
This is different from other dampers as the GT1 actually use 2 full size piston with 2 wear tape.
This spread the load and therefore increase side load capacity without going into an inverted design.

This is a rather unique design, and I haven't really seen any other suspension brand using similar design... until last week.

It seems we weren't the only one using this double piston design, Moton seems to be using this also.

There aren't much literature on the function of their design, and it is probably different from the GT1.
But just thought it is interesting because this is actually the closest I have seen in terms of what the GT1 internals looks like.


The RS200 is a Pike Peak race car.
In 2013, it was the fastest privateer team, and 4th in the unlimited class.
It was also 1 of 8 cars in the world to reach the top within the 9 minutes mark, call the "9 minutes club".

So yes... the suspension certainly work and work very well; with result to back it up.

Jerrick

 

[awwwww_shift]

We will see, for now we want to concentrate on the GT1.
The GT3 very specialise and therefore it will be done on a custom build basis.
Because if we are going to custom build something, we are going to make sure it is going to be tailor made to fit.

As far as price goes, we will come in under all the big names for sure.

Another interesting thing I found earlier this month at the Autosport show.
One of the rather unique feature of the MeisterR GT1 dampers is that we use a double 44mm piston inside.
This is different from other dampers as the GT1 actually use 2 full size piston with 2 wear tape.
This spread the load and therefore increase side load capacity without going into an inverted design.

There aren't much literature on the function of their design, and it is probably different from the GT1.
But just thought it is interesting because this is actually the closest I have seen in terms of what the GT1 internals looks like.

So yes... the suspension certainly work and work very well; with result to back it up.

Jerrick

did a little snipping there in the quote.

FWIW, most of the moton offshoots on this side of the pond(AST, MCS, FatCat, etc...) All use similar piston setups. I've driven(autocross and tracked) on most of these shock in different chassis, and really like the way the chassis is controlled with this setup.

Thanks for all this insight that most companies wouldn't take the time to post out there and try to shed some light on the sometimes scary art of shocks, and the black art of shock tuning.

I'm very intrigued to see what you guys come up with for the GT3, and hopefully, maybe a GT2...

 

[MeisterR]

Not a problem, will keep everyone up to date with the development.
By the way, this really isn't an offshoot of Moton.. we just happen to have similar thing.

The original design was from BAD, and it was designed for the Belgium military as their cars were so heavy that the side load was bending damper rod.
So having this double piston design effectively spread the load, strengthen the unit, and increased service life.

Both piston is BAD original design, and the piston used in the GT1 is a "enlarged" version of the same piston used in the RS200 posted above.
This isn't a case where you have a "halo" product that have no resemblance to what customer actually purchase and use on their cars.

Jerrick

 

[RAAMaudio]

No matter how well I built my cars down to exacting suspension geometry, weight distribution, etc...I have went all the way up to double adjustable remote res Moton, triple adjustable Ohlins, etc...I simply just do not have the feel for dialing them in right. For my particular place in this world of making cars faster that I can drive well enough myself I find a good single adjustable works perfectly well for me and have taken many 2nd and 3rd place finishes in the wrong car for the class against far better chassis and far bigger budgets which is hugely rewarding to me, far better than when I used to win all the time decades ago in the best car for the class even if most of the competitors spend hugely more money on their cars.

As just mentioned in the 3rd place finish against formidable competition in the S2000 I am going to take a good look at your coilovers and much lower spring rates that you run though I use the rates to haul 600-700lbs in the car regularly and to control body roll instead of sway bars, just use the stock front with urethane bushings and adjustable end links to dial out preload.

 

[MeisterR]

That is the main with dialling in suspension, it is very different when dialling a damper with dyno data vs. just turning a knob.
With a good one way custom build adjustable damper, basically you are setting the damper full stiff setting at the "sweet spot" at where the car should perform best at.
Then the adjustment is to adjust for minor differences such as rain / wet / bad surfaces.

A 2 / 3 way suspension can also do the same but allow adjustment of the compression alone so you can leave the rebound where it is.

But in most cases, even if it is a pure track car, a custom build 1-way damper for a 1-stage compression stack (for track car / race tires) or a 2-stage compression stack (for fast road car / occasional track day) work better than 2 / 3 way setup.
At least that is with my experience working with many clubman race driver thought out the years.

Jerrick

 

[RAAMaudio]

Makes sense to me, either have the data which requires sensors mounted and data collected, understood, tweaks and more runs made to dial them in or a damn good driver with an engineering mind and not many like that can tell just from the feedback they are getting behind the wheel.

Sorry if repeating myself, dead tired, getting ready to change RV's, etc.....

My last major project was a 2300lb 95 M3, 600HP forged LS built to handle boost up to 1100HP, tubular control arms, custom 3-way Ohlins $$$$, over $100k into parts alone and I realized I was never going to be able to drive it at it's true potential as way beyond anything I had done before but I had top BMW racers that wanted a chance behind the wheel as it was planned to be the fastest E36 on track ever though not major exterior aero, just solid well engineered, super slick body work and fully tuned underbody, massive dual plane diffuser, etc...I knew for sure I not even set it all up properly as I would mostly be putting around or terrified it pushing it

 

[MeisterR]

As the suspension are adjustable, alot of time you don't need alot of specific data to adjust the dynamics of the car.
What you do need is to have some basic data (corner weight, suspension motion ratio, etc) so you can build the suspension for the car base on "Proven" vehicle dynamics principle.
Once that happen, then you have adjustment to move the "goal post", but you will be in the right "ball park".

What I see alot of time is suspension are build either so far out that it isn't completely in a different place.
Or build with such a wide range that basically the part where you need is completely useless, and the part where you will use are severely compromised.

There are alot of different ways to achieve a goal, but when you build something that have the basics right first, you are aft to a good start.
One person at the last weekend took off a set of 2-way JRZ for his S2000 because he just couldn't get it to handle right.
Slap on a set of $1000 off the shelf suspension and the car handle better and achieve better result than that $8000 JRZ coilovers ever did.

When the basic is right, you get good result. If the basic are wrong, you won't get good result.
It doesn't matter if you have all the advance technology if the basic isn't correct.

Jerrick

 

[RAAMaudio]

I like your take on this as it makes a great deal of sense.

Likely I got lucky as have had several different brands of not expensive coilovers that worked really well and easy to dial in for dual purpose. Soft enough for the street and stiffer for the track, cars were fast and easy to drive but one was pretty twitchy but I made it work and set times leaving others scratching their heads, especially one weekend where 5 national champ autocrossers could not figure it out but I set top time of the weekend.

Back in the 70's in my 510 days in autocross and TD rally. I had a very limited budget yet beat all the cars costing many times more money as they all just bought parts and put them on and many times severely mismatched. None of them did the little things like slot the rear control arm mounts, most ran to much spring rate and poor geometry as lowered to far. Big carbs and cam with no bottom end power so hard to modulate and not bog down, putting on parts not needed to only add weight and think it made the cars faster and a ton more of little tweaks which I constantly tested and got faster while they got slower bolting on more stuff they should of not bought.

I bought a C5 Z06 race car to save money and build time, flew to TX to watch it race, had it shipped to UT, two days later at the track it was the worst handling setup I had ever driven and had brand new 2-way Motons and a ton of other expensive parts all over the car. It did not want to turn in nor unwind, would wander all over, braking was scary, I did a few quick tweaks between runs but eventually just put it in the trailer and hauled it home before the day was over, skipped a couple of runs so I would not just madder or run off the track, into a wall, etc...whoever put the Motons on the car jacked them up, two had to be rebuilt after 3 events on them. I had already sold them and the new owner had got a free rebuild which was lucky for him, and me as I would of paid for it otherwise even though I did not mess them up and they went completely through all 4 which was very cool at no charge.

I only bought one other race car after that but it was built by a guy that built the national champ spec miata, it was his personal car and beyond spec Miata but I sold it to buy the Vette before I drove it, buddy of mine bought it and raced and loved it for years.

Anyway, IF I get back into tracking this car I will likely be looking to your services, for now the BCs are working well enough though I might just put them up for sale and see what happens

 

[awwwww_shift]

My main reason for bringing this up was because for most traveling autocrossers, we encounter many different sites throughout the season. Some concrete, some asphault, some sealed, some not. So the ability to keep one set of shocks, but make them viable for multiple arenas takes a special kind of setup. To my experience, a single-adjustable setup may be good, and may net good results. But a double adjustable will be easier to hit the same results without making the car "peaky" or "twitchy" at the limit. I've driven the same car with both kinds of shocks(koni sports with race valving, and koni 3011's) and the later was much easier to control at the limit. same springs and base valving to them as well...

It may not be 100% necessary, but when you have the tools available, and the knowledge to make them work in your favor, things get much easier.

JMO.