COBB Stage 0 "Stock Simulation" OAR Stuck at -0.79 - What's the Deal?

[anticon]

I got an AP and have just left it on the Stage 0 tune. I want to get a baseline and check my temps and engine timing, etc. I have been driving a couple weeks with multiple hard 3rd and 4th gear pulls from 2k to redline and even a fill up on our E10 92 at two different stations (Chevron and 76). My OAR has been stuck at -0.79 for a week. It went down pretty fast from the base +0.60 after I got it, but it hasn't moved since.

Last night I took it for a pull up a long hill to try to get it to creep down again but I couldn't get it to move. I had it warmed up and got in three consecutive pulls up a gradual slope in third gear from 2k to redline, and the thing didn't move. I am monitoring my ignition correction on all 4 cylinders and they were in the +4.75 range max after the three pulls. I have seen them up to 5.75 before though on some of the 4th gear pulls.

I really have no idea what the proper range is for ignition timing, it sounds like 6 is about the most advanced you get, and anything below -1 is not good. I assume the ignition timing somehow controls the OAR. Is this correct?

 

[Meowoosh]

Easiest done in 5th or 6th gear. No need to reach redline. Monitor the ignition timing, anything over 3.5 is enough to lower the OAR. Consistent partial throttle is key here.

Also, is Shell not an option? Based on third party, independent tests, Shells octane ratings are the most accurate, sometimes even a whole point above the stated octane (ex 94 from a 93 octane pump)

 

[anticon]

Thanks for the advice, I figured I was doing something wrong. I'll go try again when I get a chance.

Shell is an option. There is actually one right next to my office. It's just Chevron is a little more convenient. I guess I have never actually looked up test results between the different gas stations. I always thought Chevron was pretty good. Now I get to do some more research.

 

[LaserWhisperer]

FWIW, Costco gas is actually pretty good too.

You may also want to ensure that your AP firmware is up to date

 

[Meowoosh]

I dont know about Costco gas... but HEB gas, randalls gas, and most supermarket gas is highly unfiltered relatively speaking. Avoid at all costs, Shell FTW

 

[El_Zylcho]

I dont know about Costco gas... but HEB gas, randalls gas, and most supermarket gas is highly unfiltered relatively speaking. Avoid at all costs, Shell FTW

Costco is supposed to be top teir.

 

[Dpro]

Costco is top tier they advertise the fact. Its not supermarket chain gas.

 

[Speedboosted]

I dont know about Costco gas... but HEB gas, randalls gas, and most supermarket gas is highly unfiltered relatively speaking. Avoid at all costs, Shell FTW

What do you mean by this? I've been using my local Fred Meyer and have great octane results. Advertised 92 octane running a 93 octane tune, OAR is buried at -1.00 and +3.00 ignition timing every pull.

 

[Meowoosh]

Aftermarket tunes (anything not stage 0) will go to OAR -1.00 much faster and will stay there easier. It takes more knock and more negative ignition timing for it to go back up. The stock tune is very conservative.

Years ago I had found data that supported my claim, but I cant really find it now so take it with a grain of salt. If something is cheaper, theres a reason for it. The only reason I can think of why costco gas is cheaper but still up to par is because they know you are pretty likely to go in a spend $100+ on groceries as well, so losing a lil on gas is worth it to incentivize grocery getters.

Idk if your mods allow for stage 0 anymore, but if so, it might be valuable info to see if your results change any.

 

[Joker328]

If something is cheaper, theres a reason for it.

Yeah, the reason is marketing. People are willing to pay more for an iPhone because Apple spends millions of dollars convincing people that they are cooler or better than other phones. People are willing to pay more for Shell or Chevron because those brands spend millions of dollars convincing people they are better for your car. In neither case is that sense of superiority necessarily grounded in objective reality.

If you think Shell or whoever has a magic formula for keeping your engine clean (remembering that we have DI, so the valves are fucked regardless), then run a tank of it once a month or something. Otherwise, unless you are getting excessive knock, run whatever is cheap.

 

[Speedboosted]

Aftermarket tunes (anything not stage 0) will go to OAR -1.00 much faster and will stay there easier. It takes more knock and more negative ignition timing for it to go back up. The stock tune is very conservative.

Years ago I had found data that supported my claim, but I cant really find it now so take it with a grain of salt. If something is cheaper, theres a reason for it. The only reason I can think of why costco gas is cheaper but still up to par is because they know you are pretty likely to go in a spend $100+ on groceries as well, so losing a lil on gas is worth it to incentivize grocery getters.

Idk if your mods allow for stage 0 anymore, but if so, it might be valuable info to see if your results change any.

Very interesting. I can still run a Stage 0 tune, yes. Next tank I think I'll give it a shot just to see.

 

[danbfree]

Aftermarket tunes (anything not stage 0) will go to OAR -1.00 much faster and will stay there easier. It takes more knock and more negative ignition timing for it to go back up. The stock tune is very conservative.

Years ago I had found data that supported my claim, but I cant really find it now so take it with a grain of salt. If something is cheaper, theres a reason for it. The only reason I can think of why costco gas is cheaper but still up to par is because they know you are pretty likely to go in a spend $100+ on groceries as well, so losing a lil on gas is worth it to incentivize grocery getters.

Idk if your mods allow for stage 0 anymore, but if so, it might be valuable info to see if your results change any.

Yeah, the reason is marketing. People are willing to pay more for an iPhone because Apple spends millions of dollars convincing people that they are cooler or better than other phones. People are willing to pay more for Shell or Chevron because those brands spend millions of dollars convincing people they are better for your car. In neither case is that sense of superiority necessarily grounded in objective reality.

If you think Shell or whoever has a magic formula for keeping your engine clean (remembering that we have DI, so the valves are fucked regardless), then run a tank of it once a month or something. Otherwise, unless you are getting excessive knock, run whatever is cheap.

Costco simply believes in the volume model: They only charge a 10-15% markup and make 90% of their profits from membership fees, they believe in simply opening more and more stores to make more money, not by analyzing and squeezing the highest possible price on every item... if only more stores were like this, sigh...

Anyway, Top Tier simply guarantees the recommended level of additives for modern engines, some grocery store chains could absolutely be selling Top Tier quality gas, they just don't pay to have it analyzed and given the license to advertise it as such as it is a paid consortium thing... BUT, since it is so low profit margin and such a good price, I simply use Costco and like I've said all along, our 92 really seems to be consistently 93+ in actuality... I'm almost 100% convinced that Costco gas is actually Arco, which of course is also Top Tier...

Also, Top Tier is recommended for DI because it helps burn cleaner to begin with to prevent carbon buildup, not for the valve washing properties.

But I wouldn't worry about the OAR on Stage 0, I'm sure you will see on Stage 1 it goes to -1.00, maybe even that's part of the Stage 0 limitation is that it doesn't even try to take full advantage of timing advancements?

 

[anticon]

It took a little bit of work but I got -1.0 OAR on the Stage 0 tune. [MENTION=8550]Meowoosh[/MENTION] I kind of was wondering if the Stage 0 tune was making it more difficult to get to -1.0. I went on a long drive on straight-ish country roads and just kept going from 40 mph to 80 mph (~2k to 3.5k) in 5th and 6th gears and watched the ignition correction on all four cylinders on the AP. I probably did this 20+ times on my trip. I feel like I have leveled up in video game I noticed that most of the correction seemed to occur during the 2.5-3k rpm range, after that it seemed to drop off.

This is right after I got the AP hooked up.

This is after my drive where I got it to -1.0.

This is my first drive after I got it to -1.0.

 

[danbfree]

It took a little bit of work but I got -1.0 OAR on the Stage 0 tune. [MENTION=8550]Meowoosh[/MENTION] I kind of was wondering if the Stage 0 tune was making it more difficult to get to -1.0. I went on a long drive on straight-ish country roads and just kept going from 40 mph to 80 mph (~2k to 3.5k) in 5th and 6th gears and watched the ignition correction on all four cylinders on the AP. I probably did this 20+ times on my trip. I feel like I have leveled up in video game I noticed that most of the correction seemed to occur during the 2.5-3k rpm range, after that it seemed to drop off.

(Referencing photos redacted for space) I'm kind of surprised to see any negative corrections at all, with my Stratified 93 tune I get none at all, but that could have a lot to do with how Alex knows his stuff and Cobb has brought him in to train their people, but still Cobb seems to get more negative corrections... You say you have a Stratified 93 tune now, let us know when you switch back and see if you have any negative corrections then. I would worry more about how your real tune is running now that you've played with your Stage 0 enough.

 

[Meowoosh]

Cobb stage 0 is literally the stock tune copied over. There are no differences. I confirmed this with Cobb because, due to classing, I must compete in stage 0 (stock tune)

 

[danbfree]

Cobb stage 0 is literally the stock tune copied over. There are no differences. I confirmed this with Cobb because, due to classing, I must compete in stage 0 (stock tune)

They used language such as "our version of a stock tune" but they prob had to say that for legal reasons... Either way, OP was just getting some baseline data and eventually got his -1.00 OAR too.

 

[stascom]

with my Stratified 93 tune I get none at all,

You never go negative on 3rd and 4th gear pulls at over 5k?

 

[danbfree]

You never go negative on 3rd and 4th gear pulls at over 5k?

Nope, if ever maybe -0.29 a cylinder at most...

 

[pwnall1337]

stage 0 is factory simulated map. OAR is not supposed to be -1.00 (best octane available) on a factory calibration. 1 is 86 octane and -1 is somewhere around 94 octane. 91 octane would put you between 0->0.30.

The OAR logic is not used in it's traditional sense on most peoples tunes.