Carbon Ceramic Brakes?

[MFactory]

Hey guys,

tried doing a quick search but didn't really turn up anything.

what's the general consensus on here regarding Carbon Ceramic Brakes? Street and/or track use.

I understand a lot on here probably haven't used CCB/CCM's before as no one makes any for small wheels, but if a size was developed to fit with 15/16/17's and at a very reasonable cost, would there be sufficient interest?

Thanks!

 

[Dialcaliper]

Maybe not the answer you’re looking for, but the hearsay I’ve seen from the Porsche (and Corvette) communities is that for most serious track use/club racing, people convert to iron brakes.

Popular for track driven Porsche’s are conventional track pad and two-piece Girodisc cast-iron rotor conversions that drop into the carbon ceramic calipers.

The CCB’s these days handle street use really well with exceptional longevity (3-4x). Like “ceramic” brake pads the dust is iron-free and keeps your wheels clean. The dust they do generate is also less toxic to ocean runoff, meaning we may start seeing them a lot more on factory vehicles ans the cost comes down for environmental reasons.

They also do handle fade and heat exceptionally well as used in top tier racing, but when pushed hard have atrociously rapid wear (faster than traditional cast-iron) to the point of simply being unaffordable even for deep-pockets amateur racing. For this reason they are no longer advertised as “100,000 mile brakes” by companies like Porsche

Whether “street” carbon ceramic brakes are formulated differently than those used in high end racing I don’t have enough details, but all the OEM CCB kits are all made by the same company in Germany (TMD Friction)

In any case, it’s enough to make me want to run far away from ceramics for the time being. Perhaps as the technology matures more (like continuous vs chopped fiber discs) we’ll start to see them be more viable for aftermarket brake kits.

Some references:

https://www.autoblog.com/2019/03/24/porsche-carbon-brakes-not-for-race-tracks/

https://girodisc.com/porsche-991-gt3-gt2rs-pccb-front-iron-rotor-conversion/

https://rennlist.com/forums/991-gt3-gt3rs-gt2rs-and-911r/1283344-pccb-and-limited-track-use-4.html

 

[Dialcaliper]

After writing that, I got curious, and discovered that the carbon-carbon brakes used in LeMans are absolutely nothing like those used in street cars. Totally different material.

https://www.roadandtrack.com/car-culture/a44345017/carbon-carbon-racing-brakes-explained/

“Carbon-Ceramic” street car brakes are chopped fiber in Silicon Carbide ceramic matrix, which has long wear life as long as you don’t abuse them. They do still have many heat and weight advantages over iron.

“Carbon-Carbon” or “CFC” is carbon fiber (chopped or woven) in graphite matrix. It has even higher conductivity, heat capacity and temperature resistance (some grades to 2800C), but is somewhat soft and wears out rapidly. As mentioned in the article, design life for LeMans CFC rotors is a “full race”, or a measly 3700 (hard) miles. Also they don’t really work very well as brakes when “cold”. Not exactly the sort of thing you sell for street cars.

The only reason I actually know the difference is that I’ve been working with Carbon-Carbon at work. In fact my neck still itches because I was modifying a piece of CFC plate on a table saw and rubbed the side of my neck on accident. It’s worse than fiberglass. Oops. 😱

 

[MFactory]

Thanks for your feedback

The issue with the premature wear on the track is due to high temperature oxidation (this basically makes the carbon vaporise) and affects all of the Gen.1 CCB's and even the Gen 1.5 CCM's. Almost all OE CCB/CCM's are Gen.1/1.5. These issues are resolved with the latest Gen.2 CCM's (OE only really used on Hypercars due to the cost). Basically, Brembo/SGL are the reason for giving CCB's their bad reputation (ironically, as they were the ones that kind of put them on the map in the first place)

All of the F1 cars use Carbon/Carbon brakes, which are similar to the ones used in Aerospace. These need replacing after every race.

As with on the Focus ST forum, the general consensus was that a "Track/Performance" CCM wasn't really a viable option for these lower-cost daily platforms, so what our new company (I won't post links as I'm not a vendor anymore, unless a mod/admin gives me permission and I'll post a link to the website and FB page. The company is CTE Carbon Composites. You can search on FB or even on our website) is currently developing is a "Street" CCM.

Basically all of the benefits of the Gen.2 CCM, none of the negatives of the Gen.1/1.5, and will be priced similarly to a high-performance 2pc Iron Disc

 

[Dialcaliper]

Thanks for your feedback

The issue with the premature wear on the track is due to high temperature oxidation (this basically makes the carbon vaporise) and affects all of the Gen.1 CCB's and even the Gen 1.5 CCM's. Almost all OE CCB/CCM's are Gen.1/1.5. These issues are resolved with the latest Gen.2 CCM's (OE only really used on Hypercars due to the cost). Basically, Brembo/SGL are the reason for giving CCB's their bad reputation (ironically, as they were the ones that kind of put them on the map in the first place)

All of the F1 cars use Carbon/Carbon brakes, which are similar to the ones used in Aerospace. These need replacing after every race.

As with on the Focus ST forum, the general consensus was that a "Track/Performance" CCM wasn't really a viable option for these lower-cost daily platforms, so what our new company (I won't post links as I'm not a vendor anymore, unless a mod/admin gives me permission and I'll post a link to the website and FB page. The company is CTE Carbon Composites. You can search on FB or even on our website) is currently developing is a "Street" CCM.

Basically all of the benefits of the Gen.2 CCM, none of the negatives of the Gen.1/1.5, and will be priced similarly to a high-performance 2pc Iron Disc

Today I learned something.

From the sound of the website, you’re talking about a drop in pad and rotor for an OEM or aftermarket caliper?

Any heat issues to be expected with the OEM sliding caliper or are you expecting another specific caliper to be used? Prices on your website appear to be around $5000 for an axle (is this front only?)

 

[MFactory]

Today I learned something.

From the sound of the website, you’re talking about a drop in pad and rotor for an OEM or aftermarket caliper?

Any heat issues to be expected with the OEM sliding caliper or are you expecting another specific caliper to be used? Prices on your website appear to be around $5000 for an axle (is this front only?)

Direct OE replacement, so no modifications/upgrades required

That pricing is based on our top-tier Carbon Ceramic Brakes (i.e the "Track" CCM) and is for a Pair of Discs + Pads (front or rear). Carbon Ceramic Pads are required. As mentioned, we probably won't offer these for the Fiesta/Focus ST unless there is demand. We are currently making them for Honda's as there is still a good amount of demand there (especially with the FK8/FL5)

Our "Street" CCM is listed as Carbon Composite Brakes on our website, and will be priced similarly to regular 2pc Iron Rotors. Regular pads can be used, but Carbon Ceramic Pads are highly recommended.