Brakes - How-to for FiST?

[Chris G]

Hi guys/gals - is there a FiST-specific brake pad/rotor how-to out there for us to reference? I'd like to do my own brakes here in the next few months but have never done brakes on my own. Help?

 

[me32]

This will help some
Watch "2011 Ford Fiesta break job in a nut shell" on YouTube
https://youtu.be/TMxtWMebIW4

 

[D1JL]

After the mechanical replacement of pads and rotors proper bleeding is very important.

I posted this before and found it to be the best method for our cars.
It is very easy to do and requires no added expense for special tools or equipment.



I have bled these systems many times and never needed special tools.

I would suggest that you gravity bleed the system first.
This will actually get most of the air out.
One wheel at a time in this order, RR, LR, RF, LF.

If the rear brakes were replaced, cycling the E-Brake handle a few times should be done.
This is to re-set the rear pistons to a proper location.

After that, bleed as normal with one person on the pedal and one at the wheel.
It is best to use a clear plastic tube on the bleed valve nipple so you can see the fluid.
Do NOT pump the brake pedal, this only puts air back into the system.
Remember that the gravity bleed got most of the air out anyway.
Just one press on the pedal then bleed and repeat on all wheels until there is no air.
Always do RR, LR, RF, then LF.

You do not need to do the gravity bleed again.
However, you should then do the same procedure again with the engine running.
This allows all of the valves within the ABS control to be set to the proper positions.

This method has worked for me every time without fail.
Only one most important thing is to NRVER allow the master to run out of fluid.




Dave

 

[rexdriver85]

Dave, this is a good procedure for bleeding brakes, but, the only time you should do it is if you open the system.

If you are only doing pads and rotors, bleeding brakes isn't necessary.

If he's replacing a caliper, master cylinder, brake hoses, etc, than definitely yes.

I guess if you really want to, sure you can, but it's only 100 percent necessary if the system is opened.

 

[D1JL]

Dave, this is a good procedure for bleeding brakes, but, the only time you should do it is if you open the system.
If you are only doing pads and rotors, bleeding brakes isn't necessary.
If he's replacing a caliper, master cylinder, brake hoses, etc, than definitely yes.
I guess if you really want to, sure you can, but it's only 100 percent necessary if the system is opened.

I am sorry but as a retired professional ASE MASTER mechanic I must disagree.
To do the job correctly the system should always be opened.

In order to push the pistons back into the calipers you should open the bleed valves.
This is especially true with ABS.
This is to prevent contaminated fluid/debris back into the ABS valves or master.
It also prevents ABS valves from getting stuck in an incorrect position by forcing the fluid the wrong direction.
I have had this happen on some systems.

In addition, if the fluid in any caliper ever got extremely hot, it is possible that the fluid boiled.
A small amount of air could now be in the system and it is impossible to know this.
So as a precautionary method, all four calipers should be bled every time you do brake work.

They do make check valves that can be placed on the bleed nipples for a one man bleed operation.
However, now we have a special tool that as I said above was not needed.
In addition the use of these check valves CAN cause air to get sucked back in.
You see, even though the check valve prevents fluid to go back, it is possible for air to get passed the threads of the bleed valve when left open.

It is your car and you can work on your brakes any way you want.
I prefer to have my car stop by use of the brake system and NOT the use of trees, walls, or other cars.
In over 40 years of people trusting me with their cars and their lives, I prefer to do the job correctly.



Dave

 

[rexdriver85]

Dave, I agree with the part about opening the system to push the pistons back into the caliper.

All of what you are saying is true, but the reality is very seldom does ANYONE do what you are saying in a pad and rotor replacement scenario.

Should it be done? If you are by the book yes.

Saying someone is going to end up into a tree, wall, or another vehicle is pretty harsh just because one did not open the bleeder to replace their pads.

Again, I agree with you, you are right in what you are saying about the ABS system and debris in old fluid being pushed up in the opposite direction of flow. But in the real world (at least from what I've seen in the past 10 years as a mechanic) this isn't practiced.

 

[twolf]

I've never seen anyone open the bleeder to push the pistons back in. It's good to know I've been taught the wrong way Thanks for that info, Dave.

 

[D1JL]

Dave, I agree with the part about opening the system to push the pistons back into the caliper.
All of what you are saying is true, but the reality is very seldom does ANYONE do what you are saying in a pad and rotor replacement scenario.
Should it be done? If you are by the book yes.
Saying someone is going to end up into a tree, wall, or another vehicle is pretty harsh just because one did not open the bleeder to replace their pads.
Again, I agree with you, you are right in what you are saying about the ABS system and debris in old fluid being pushed up in the opposite direction of flow. But in the real world (at least from what I've seen in the past 10 years as a mechanic) this isn't practiced.

And I too agree with what you say.
I do also think it is ill-advised to provide instruction to people that may not have the experienced that you may have unless it is by the book as you say (my opinion).
And yes I also know that shops will do anything to save time like skip steps or not put all the bolts or screws back in.
This is primarily because there are very few mechanics but very many parts changers and they are mostly paid on commission.
This is the reason I don't trust any shop to work on my car any more and re-inspect any work that is done.

Here in California it is NOT ever required at all to have any kind of mechanic license, or experience, or even own any tools to open an auto repair shop, just money.
Think about this the next time you need to stop quick and someone is coming fast behind you.

As I said, it is your car and you can do what ever you want.
I just think that if someone asks for help on a critical system, they should get the BEST answer possible.



Dave

 

[2Cool]

You could always throw a mityvac or similar tool on the bleed screw, crack it slightly as you press in the pistons, then close again. Minimal chance of air being drawn back into the system, and you don't worry about pushing garbage back up the lines.

 

[rexdriver85]

I just think that if someone asks for help on a critical system, they should get the BEST answer possible.

Dave

Well said. You are an asset to the community for sure.

 

[D1JL]

You could always throw a mityvac or similar tool on the bleed screw, crack it slightly as you press in the pistons, then close again. Minimal chance of air being drawn back into the system, and you don't worry about pushing garbage back up the lines.

This is also a very good idea.
However, now we back to the requirement of special tools that my original method does not need.




Dave

 

[2Cool]

Yes, but a mityvac is a multipurpose tool everyone should have in their toolbox, and it is fairly cheap to pick up a Harbor Freight knockoff.

 

[CanadianGuy]

[MENTION=879]D1JL[/MENTION]

I saw you stated special tool and not wanting one. I agree they are usually not required for maintenance work.

Here is the cheapest check valve for brake bleed when doing a pad replace.

Get a clear air hose about 6-12 inch (aquarium hose, or similar) place it on the nipple, use a zip tie(or gear clamp) to secure it onto the nipple. Make sure the hose points up and pour 1" of brake fluid in the hose to sit at the bleeder.
Now crack the bleeder and push the pad in. The fluid should climb up the hose as you push in. It should not go more than a few inches.
Once done close the bleeder and pull the hose out careful to capture the fluid.

Some attach it to an old empty bottle which can be used for a single person bleed. But the trick is to make sure there is always fluid on the bleeder for no air to get in.

If you are cracking the bleeder valve always check and top up if required after running the car and trying the breaks.

And you are now on your way.

@ the OP

One thing to note the rear wheel will need a tool to twist and push the piston in at the same time.
Something like this is cheap and tons of videos online for it.
http://www.autozone.com/test-scan-a...cube-for-use-with-3-8-in-drive-tool/2363_0_0/

 

[D1JL]

Yes the plastic tube does work but the bleeder can only be opened while you are pushing on the piston so it does not move back.
As I said you must be careful because air can get by the threads.
If it does happen and you don't know it, well you are right back to bleeding anyway.

As for the rear piston tool, yes, I have one and also a complete rear reset kit and they work great, but I mostly just use a needle nose plyer.

My point was not that I don't have or want any special tools as I do have many and they do make many jobs easer.
It is just that I was providing instruction for someone that may not have much experience and maybe NO special tools.



Dave

 

[XuperXero]

Dave, if you don't pump the brakes, how do you get the pedal back up again after each bleed?

 

[D1JL]

Dave, if you don't pump the brakes, how do you get the pedal back up again after each bleed?

I did leave out one step in my original procedure about cycling the E-Brake handle if the rear brakes are done (now corrected).


This is what the gravity bleed will do for you.

With the master full and it's cap off (at least loose) and any wheel bleed valve open the fluid will run right through taking any air with it.
Once all four wheels are done, there shouldn't be any air in the system at all.
The additional bleeds, with pressure, are mostly as a precaution and to make sure the ABS has been cycled correctly.

BTW, if you do insist on, or find a need for pumping the pedal when bleeding, do it SLOWLEY.



Dave

 

[billdo!]

Hello everyone,

I'll be doing my brake job this week. I'm expecting my rotors and pads Monday and expect to be working on it on Thursday. I've got everything I need it seems, except torque values. Can someone provide the torque values for a brake job on the FiST? Or clue me in on where to find the information? I've done forum searches, google searches, etc with no luck, and there doesn't seem to be a Chiltons or Haynes available for current model Fiestas. Any help or info is greatly appreciated.

Also, Dave, can you explain the gravity bleed process? I'm picturing take the lid off the master, open the bleeders one at a time and look for air? This should be done after replacing the pads and rotors? I'm in the crowd that has never opened the system to replace pads and rotors, so I'm a bit of a noob on what you're describing.

Thanks all,

Bill

 

[D1JL]

Also, Dave, can you explain the gravity bleed process? I'm picturing take the lid off the master, open the bleeders one at a time and look for air? This should be done after replacing the pads and rotors? I'm in the crowd that has never opened the system to replace pads and rotors, so I'm a bit of a noob on what you're describing.

That's about it.
Yes, after completing all of the mechanical work, then start bleeding.
The cap must off or very loose so that the fluid can flow easily.
Using a clear tube on the calipers bleed them one at a time, when there is no air from each caliper you are done.
Just don't forget to keep an eye on the master so that it does not run out of fluid.
BTW, no pumping of the brake pedal is required for this gravity bleed process.

[MENTION=540]billdo![/MENTION] , if you follow my method, how about posting any feedback so others can see how easy it is and how well it works or for sure if I left something out.


Dave

 

[RAAMaudio]

Never been a pro mechanic but I do understand the importance of doing things right as I have built and raced enough cars to appreciate how critical brakes are!

I have used many methods of bleeding brakes and have never had a brake issue on track or on the street other than cracking rotors but I do a lot of maintenance on my cars, far more than most would ever consider doing.

Of all the methods available the one listed by Dave seems the most viable for those without any specialty tools and a great method overall.

I have used a MightyVac (real aluminum one) many times with great success but really like the Motive pressure bleeder pump even more for a one man operation. Unfortunately I sold a brand new one with billet BMW cap from my race car project right after buying this car when I parted it out and taking a hit on the price I paid, then found out is was the same cap as our car

------------

For those that track their car or just want the best consider Castrol SRF brake fluid, very expensive, highest ratings, considerably longer service life which means less overall maintenance, fewer changes and can lower operating costs even for DIY users. I have had setups where I had to change the fluid for every event, bleed between runs, etc...I can run this fluid for a full season and longer if not on the track much, mine is close to 2 years old and still just fine. I do need to do a caliper bleed just for added insurance as been awhile.

 

[D1JL]

[MENTION=636]RAAMaudio[/MENTION], I do use a MightyVac but only for the fluid catch bottle. LOL

You are right, the high end pressure bleeder is the best but expensive.
The MightyVac works well but air can get by the threads of the bleed valve so it is hard to tell that you got all the air out.



Dave