Brakes arent holding up to light track use like they should be

[Jkingtana]

so the oem brakes on my car would shake pretty uncomfortably not too long after getting the car. i thought it was odd so i switched to ebc rotors and pads. shakes went away completely and i was happy. today i went to a track day in my car and the brakes faded a lot and i wansnt even pushing the car. i thought maybe i had pushed the brakes a bit too hard to fast so the next session i slowwwwly tried to build pressure and that actually helped a lot, but after a few laps i started to develop a shake from the front brakes. i let the brakes cool and the problem went away on the street but im sure it wont hold up well on the track. ive never had brake issues with other cars like this before. everything is new and supposed to be decent quality. i see others talking about tracking their cars with stock brakes. i cant even imagine doing that. can someone point me in the right direction at this point im thinking of getting better more race oriented pads and if that doesnt work a brake kit.

 

[TyphoonFiST]

so the oem brakes on my car would shake pretty uncomfortably not too long after getting the car. i thought it was odd so i switched to ebc rotors and pads. shakes went away completely and i was happy. today i went to a track day in my car and the brakes faded a lot and i wansnt even pushing the car. i thought maybe i had pushed the brakes a bit too hard to fast so the next session i slowwwwly tried to build pressure and that actually helped a lot, but after a few laps i started to develop a shake from the front brakes. i let the brakes cool and the problem went away on the street but im sure it wont hold up well on the track. ive never had brake issues with other cars like this before. everything is new and supposed to be decent quality. i see others talking about tracking their cars with stock brakes. i cant even imagine doing that. can someone point me in the right direction at this point im thinking of getting better more race oriented pads and if that doesnt work a brake kit.

Fluid type?

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[juliog]

The ST brake system is undersized from factory, mainly the front discs are too small and don't provide enough heat capacity. EBC pads aren't really cut for track work either, no matter what people say.

Before going with a BBK, I would try G-Loc R12/Carbotech XP12 front & rear with fresh brake fluid (Endless, Castrol..). That may be just enough for some people. Personally I still faded that setup after 2 laps at a 2 min track, with visible heatchecking on brand new discs, on STOCK TIRES, so I went BBK.

 

[Jkingtana]

Fluid type?

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motul 600

 

[Jkingtana]

The ST brake system is undersized from factory, mainly the front discs are too small and don't provide enough heat capacity. EBC pads aren't really cut for track work either, no matter what people say.

Before going with a BBK, I would try G-Loc R12/Carbotech XP12 front & rear with fresh brake fluid (Endless, Castrol..). That may be just enough for some people. Personally I still faded that setup after 2 laps at a 2 min track, with visible heatchecking on brand new discs, on STOCK TIRES, so I went BBK.

what did you end up going with?

 

[juliog]

what did you end up going with?

Brembo GT & CSG Spec C2 brake pads.

 

[Woods247]

Type 200 manages heat better than Motul 600. I had to use ducts with stock brakes and would have issues with Motul after 2-3 laps. Switching to Type 200 (old Super Blue) made a big difference. Did you bed the new pads and rotors? You don’t use the ebrake after sessions right?

The torque vectoring control kills OEM brakes on the track. You cannot disable it. Without a LSD or huge BBK, you’re always going to have front brake issues if you’re fast. I’d install a LSD before the BBK and run track pads from Carbotec, Hawk or whomever you prefer. A LSD significantly reduces the torque vectoring interference thus reducing brake temps dramatically on track.

 

[iammacey]

I went from OEM pads/rotors to EBC slotted rotors and Red Stuff pads. I thought the pads were terrible. I couldn't even get through mountain run without them fading. Went back to stock pads, which are actually pretty solid. Once those were shot, I installed StopTech slotted rotors and Mountune Track Pads. I have been very happy with this setup, though it does have more noise and brake squeal at times. This does not bother me.

I just installed StopTech lines and RB660. And ordered Boomba deflectors tonight.

I drive Atlanta Motorsports Park and have close to stock power. This should be an effective setup for me.

 

[green_henry]

I ran my first track sessions with the Boomba deflectors last week and they really helped. And, FWIW, I use Redline RL 600 brake fluid

 

[M-Sport fan]

Type 200 manages heat better than Motul 600. I had to use ducts with stock brakes and would have issues with Motul after 2-3 laps. Switching to Type 200 (old Super Blue) made a big difference. Did you bed the new pads and rotors? You don’t use the ebrake after sessions right?

The torque vectoring control kills OEM brakes on the track. You cannot disable it. Without a LSD or huge BBK, you’re always going to have front brake issues if you’re fast. I’d install a LSD before the BBK and run track pads from Carbotec, Hawk or whomever you prefer. A LSD significantly reduces the torque vectoring interference thus reducing brake temps dramatically on track.

I've always wondered if by using Typ200, or any other high end racing type DOT4 fluid which is NOT an LV fluid, the torque vectoring/nannies are any less effective and/or interfering, since they all supposedly require an LV fluid to function properly.

 

[johnny5]

Never ran the stock brakes but even with a stoptech BBK we put a significant amount of temperature into the brakes (700F rotor temp). Even a G-lock R12 would crumble. I ended up with a PFC compound 11 pad, with ti backing plates and brake ducts. With a nose heavy car, plus torque vectoring your front brakes will take a significant amount of abuse if drive the car hard into the braking zones.

Running Motul 600 and bleed after every track day (it doesn't always boil but just after track maintenance).

With this set up the brakes are consistent throughout the day, no "real" fade but the pedal travel does get slightly longer by the end of the day.

 

[ronmcdon]

The torque vectoring control kills OEM brakes on the track. You cannot disable it. Without a LSD or huge BBK, you’re always going to have front brake issues if you’re fast. I’d install a LSD before the BBK and run track pads from Carbotec, Hawk or whomever you prefer. A LSD significantly reduces the torque vectoring interference thus reducing brake temps dramatically on track.

interesting point. never considered lsd being a factor. im doing ok, no noticeable fade with lad and no bbk, close to stock power. will avoid the expense of bbk if it can be helped.

 

[Lays]

Never ran the stock brakes but even with a stoptech BBK we put a significant amount of temperature into the brakes (700F rotor temp). Even a G-lock R12 would crumble. I ended up with a PFC compound 11 pad, with ti backing plates and brake ducts. With a nose heavy car, plus torque vectoring your front brakes will take a significant amount of abuse if drive the car hard into the braking zones.

Running Motul 600 and bleed after every track day (it doesn't always boil but just after track maintenance).

With this set up the brakes are consistent throughout the day, no "real" fade but the pedal travel does get slightly longer by the end of the day.

Mind if I ask where you got the backing plates and brake ducts? I'd like to do the same someday.

 

[johnny5]

Mind if I ask where you got the backing plates and brake ducts? I'd like to do the same someday.

No backing plates unfortunately, the ducts are tied down and focused at the caliper/forward side of the rotor.

Brakes ducts are standard 3in ducting pulling air from the front bumper.

 

[Philippe]

There is a nice example here : https://www.fiestast.net/threads/my-brake-ducts-build.2251/

 

[M-Sport fan]

No backing plates unfortunately, the ducts are tied down and focused at the caliper/forward side of the rotor.

Brakes ducts are standard 3in ducting pulling air from the front bumper.

WHAT exactly are titanium the 'backing plates' then??
Is it that Performance Friction Corporation uses the exotic material for it's racing compound brake PAD backing plates??

IF so, what exactly is it about the properties of titanium alloy which make it so advantageous for fighting excessive heat buildup, and brake fade?

 

[johnny5]

WHAT exactly are titanium the 'backing plates' then??
Is it that Performance Friction Corporation uses the exotic material for it's racing compound brake PAD backing plates??

IF so, what exactly is it about the properties of titanium alloy which make it so advantageous for fighting excessive heat buildup, and brake fade?

It is a titanium shim between the pad and the caliper piston, it is more or less an insulator. It was added to help save the dust boots from crumbling on the first day out and to keep some heat out of the brake fluid. (https://www.girodisc.com/Girodisc-Titanium-Pad-Shields-for-Stoptech-ST40-Calipers_p_6587.html)

It will serve the exact opposite purpose of pulling heat from the pad, but it was needed to keep the caliper happy despite the other efforts.

 

[M-Sport fan]

It is a titanium shim between the pad and the caliper piston, it is more or less an insulator. It was added to help save the dust boots from crumbling on the first day out and to keep some heat out of the brake fluid. (https://www.girodisc.com/Girodisc-Titanium-Pad-Shields-for-Stoptech-ST40-Calipers_p_6587.html)

It will serve the exact opposite purpose of pulling heat from the pad, but it was needed to keep the caliper happy despite the other efforts.

OK, now I understand.

Yeah, I meant to say heat transfer into the pistons, seals, and caliper/fluid, and not heat buildup in the pad material itself.

 

[kevinatfms]

Gotta have ducting with the stock sizes brakes. Just not going to bleed the heat off without any air flow.

High temp fluid, track focused pads, braided lines and high carbon discs should be minimum on any sort of track day. For autocross, circuit/trackcross and canyon driving the stock pads work quite well with ducting(i use them) with stock rotors and high temp fluid.

An LSD will also help to push the torque vectoring intrusion threshold farther back(i am at the point now where mine is kicking in even with an LSD and causing me time on course). The torque vectoring uses the ABS module to pulse the brakes to assist the car in rotation while cornering. Reducing that effect will help keep heat out of them also.

 

[Woods247]

Yeah ducting definitely helped my stock brakes as well. I ran 3" ducts from the OEM airdam. There's a post on the forum with pics here.