Aftermarket suspension performance numbers?

[richtor]

That is my point. Actual data seat time and geometry are the last thing large companies do when handing out their latest short springs. They want to be first to market instead of taking the time to actually improving handling.
The interesting is that public does not care. They want the look and no travel feel even if it hurts grip based on bad geometry.

 

[BRGT350]

I don't know how many times I see people posting how their suspension modifications made the car so much better than the factory and the handling is perfect, yet everything I have learned as a suspension engineer, setting up autocross cars, and working on suspensions tells me otherwise. To actually get it right isn't easy, but lowering springs will always sell. As for lowering springs, I have found the Mountune springs and factory dampers to be a very good combination. Could it be better? Yeah, but at a trade-off. For me, it is a suitable compromise between ride height, spring rates, value, and handling. I have been down roads where large sums of money have been spent trying to get suspension packages to work right. It isn't easy and it takes a lot of seat time to really know how it works. Track, autocross, street, wet, and dry. I tend to stick with companies that do more than just sell springs. My Mustang is 100% Maximum Motorsports and the ST is Mountune and mostly stock. For a car that is 99% a commuter to and from work, it is the best package for what I am looking for. Each person is different with different goals and expectations. In reality, stock is for sure the best engineered package for what the car was designed to do.

 

[neeqness]

Factual statement based of feel? That's funny!
That must be why the magazines state feel with no numbers.

No, what's funny is that you think having absolutely no facts at all is somehow factual.

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[Siestarider]

Posit #1: Modder who wants improved handling does homework and finds a suspension improvement package that reduces body roll and keeps manners, does faster laps in a controlled (track) environment. Chances he or she shares hard data with others, if a competitor, zero.

Posit #2: Modder with same object buys stuff, adds to car, makes mutilple changes, chases tires, pressures, dampers, etc. Finds a faster track combo. Chances he/she can report the incremental improvement suspension changes made, zero. Too many variables.

Posit #3: Suspension company desires proof their package offers real improvements on track. Chance they choose a different, more popular car to boost sales, 99%.

Query: Why would anyone expect to find hard data on aftermarket vs stock suspension lap times on a low volume car? Where is the incentive?

That said, there are build threads in sources like Dsport that actually offer a such comparisons. I call that part of the homework a few folks do.

 

[Plainrt]

I went with coils for better dampers, because the OEM ones Ford used are trash.

Everything else was just a side benefit of better dampers. The car definitely feels like it handles better but I have no data to back it up because I'm not that serious about car modding, I do it for fun not for points.

Mine worked great with swift springs.......... sure in hell shocked a lot of people at autocross when told only thing done was springs...... i find funny Ford spent all this time on the st just for someone to think they put trash struts on it.

 

[richtor]

No, what's funny is that you think having absolutely no facts at all is somehow factual.

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I never said that. I said that having no facts makes one believe they have have no added handling performance.

 

[parapraxis24]

your car came with coil springs from the factory and even coil spring over strut. I have no idea why people keep saying they went with coils. Congrats, you are using a coil spring, the same that has been used for decades on cars.

What data do you have to support the Ford dampers are trash? I find that is quite contrary to what many think. I actually find the factory dampers to be great, and even better with a slight increase in spring rate. The rear was a little over damped, so upping the spring rate helped. I am very interested in your reasoning to support why the dampers are trash.

Sorry Mr. pedantic, but you know what I mean when I say coils.

My butt says they're trash, they ride harsh and suck on the roads I have to deal with on a daily basis.

 

[richtor]

I don't know how many times I see people posting how their suspension modifications made the car so much better than the factory and the handling is perfect, yet everything I have learned as a suspension engineer, setting up autocross cars, and working on suspensions tells me otherwise. To actually get it right isn't easy,...

Exactly! Why spend more to mess with Suspension geometry and make handling worse?
Yes you can make it better, the time involved to however raises the price significantly!

 

[Quisp]

What track would they setup for ? Bumpy Sebring , Willow springs? Than there's drivers style. It's a compromise.

 

[BRGT350]

What track would they setup for ? Bumpy Sebring , Willow springs? Than there's drivers style. It's a compromise.

exactly. what track, what driver, what conditions, what fuel load, it all plays into the settings and it is all a compromise.

 

[BRGT350]

What track would they setup for ? Bumpy Sebring , Willow springs? Than there's drivers style. It's a compromise.

double post

 

[BRGT350]

Sorry Mr. pedantic, but you know what I mean when I say coils.

My butt says they're trash, they ride harsh and suck on the roads I have to deal with on a daily basis.

you are in Florida, a state that has some of the nicest roads in the country. I am in Michigan, one of the states with terrible roads. Harsh ride is only one measurement of ride comfort and has a lot to do with spring rates, damper rates, bushings, and tires. A less harsh ride is usually done by softening the spring rate or changing the damper curves or more commonly, both. A softer suspension is the opposite direction of increasing traction. However, an overly stiff suspension has terrible traction over bumps, so once again, it is a compromise.

As for knowing what you mean by "coils", no I don't follow along with slang terms. Learn to use proper suspension terms if you are going to enter a conversation based upon suspension geometry and figures. Take the time to say "fully adjustable coil-over-strut springs" and "rear adjustable spring perches" so others know that you are not talking about coil springs, which is a type of spring and one of many types of springs.

 

[parapraxis24]

you are in Florida, a state that has some of the nicest roads in the country. I am in Michigan, one of the states with terrible roads. Harsh ride is only one measurement of ride comfort and has a lot to do with spring rates, damper rates, bushings, and tires. A less harsh ride is usually done by softening the spring rate or changing the damper curves or more commonly, both. A softer suspension is the opposite direction of increasing traction. However, an overly stiff suspension has terrible traction over bumps, so once again, it is a compromise.

As for knowing what you mean by "coils", no I don't follow along with slang terms. Learn to use proper suspension terms if you are going to enter a conversation based upon suspension geometry and figures. Take the time to say "fully adjustable coil-over-strut springs" and "rear adjustable spring perches" so others know that you are not talking about coil springs, which is a type of spring and one of many types of springs.

Thanks for the lesson all I'm interested in is how the car feels when I drive it, my butt says the OEM struts were terrible compared to the Meister R coils.

 

[richtor]

MeisterR coils or coilovers?

 

[neeqness]

I never said that. I said that having no facts makes one believe they have have no added handling performance.

Makes YOU believe they have no added performance. My point is that you are assuming that...this does not make it a fact. Rather I'd say you are relying on less facts than someone who actually used the product.

If you don't want to use it, that's your choice. But somehow assuming that you know more about it than someone who has used it is simply not true.

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[richtor]

exactly. what track, what driver, what conditions, what fuel load, it all plays into the settings and it is all a compromise.

There's a reason Ferrari asks for the track any magazine will test their new car at at least two weeks in advance. Test and tune before the mag drivers run their car for performance figures all will see. No this does not include adding cheap short springs.

 

[richtor]

Makes YOU believe they have no added performance. My point is that you are assuming that...this does not make it a fact. Rather I'd say you are relying on less facts than someone who actually used the product.

If you don't want to use it, that's your choice. But somehow assuming that you know more about it than someone who has used it is simply not true.

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You are confusing facts with what people feel. I'll give an example. I saw a stock 15 mustang gt run a .52 at sears point. The both a 991 GT3 and C7Z run a .58/.57 respectively. Are those two cars slower than the Mustang because that's what someone saw?

It feels faster. There's less travel must have more grip. Very scientific!

 

[richtor]

BRGT350 and I both agree that it takes more than short springs to improve handling performance. One of my favorite vids is of a mustang that can't turn running fast against one of the best handling cars today a GTR race car. So how does that mustang run neck and neck with a new GTR? Lowered the rear roll center raised the front roll center while fixing other suspension geometry issues allowing the mustang to run coilovers on a softer spring rate because with correct geometry you get less body roll all while on live axle rear.
https://youtu.be/gQz7e0j9Dv4
https://youtu.be/nRzHEPeK33U
Mustang looking back and GTR looking forward at Thunderhill.

 

[neeqness]

You are confusing facts with what people feel. I'll give an example. I saw a stock 15 mustang gt run a .52 at sears point. The both a 991 GT3 and C7Z run a .58/.57 respectively. Are those two cars slower than the Mustang because that's what someone saw?

It feels faster. There's less travel must have more grip. Very scientific!

You are missing my point. You have no numbers, yet you make the conclusion that springs don't provide any performance benefit. You have no facts proving your conclusion, yet you mock the conclusions of those who have actually used springs.

Your conclusion without any facts whatsoever, numbers or otherwise, holds less water than those conclusions from people who have at least used it and have first hand experience.

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[Plainrt]

Couldn't say it better myself....... I autocross my fist plenty and compared times from just swift springs........ they reduced my times by some. Not just some bs butt dyno..... some people just know too much lol