Sway bars or bracing?

[wrongwheeldrive]

I'm ready to spend some more money on my car. Motor mods are done for now, but I've noticed after 35K miles the handling is starting to lose its "tightness".

Which do you think would yield better results? I hear great things about both...

Eibach Swaybar Kit - $329

-Or-

Pierce Street Suspension Package -$339

I'm leaning towards the bracing.

 

[808FiST]

I would go with Pierce Motorsports Street Set Up. Your car will feel tighter and not loose, along with decreased wheel hop when WOT.

I'm ready to spend some more money on my car. Motor mods are done for now, but I've noticed after 35K miles the handling is starting to lose its "tightness".

Which do you think would yield better results? I hear great things about both...

Eibach Swaybar Kit - $329

-Or-

Pierce Street Suspension Package -$339

I'm leaning towards the bracing.

 

[D1JL]

I have both items listed.
I too would recommend the bracing first.
Get use to your car again, you will love.



Dave

 

[Wcyracer]

You really cant go wrong with either. Put the eibachs on first and noticed a wonderful "boxed frame" feeling with those alone.

 

[meFiSTo]

Give any thought to adjustable coilovers? They cost more, but provide you with a lot of flexibility to meet different situational requirements.

 

[LilPartyBox]

I'm in the same boat OP. I may do just the 2 point and the torsion plus sways and do the strut tower brace later on

 

[wrongwheeldrive]

Thanks for the feedback guys. I'll let y'all know when my bonus hits in 4 days!

I have both items listed.
I too would recommend the bracing first.
Get use to your car again, you will love.

Dave

I figured you would say bracing first Dave, that's your car on the bracing page! lol

Give any thought to adjustable coilovers? They cost more, but provide you with a lot of flexibility to meet different situational requirements.

Oh I think about them all the time! My concern is that adjusting them will become a new hobby, one I don't have time for :-(

 

[D1JL]

Thanks for the feedback guys. I'll let y'all know when my bonus hits in 4 days!

I figured you would say bracing first Dave, that's your car on the bracing page! lol

Oh I think about them all the time! My concern is that adjusting them will become a new hobby, one I don't have time for :-(

Actually all of the items mentioned work very well.
You will find handling improvements with all of them so it makes no difference what you add first.
However, if you do add all of them, you will have a real slot car.

BTW, I have the coilovers as well.



Dave

 

[808FiST]

I can tell you that the bracings work very well, in my experience. I have stock suspensions, and when I added the bracings only, the car is definitely more composed during cornering, not that it wasn't stock, but it just goes to show you how much surprisingly better it can be with just bracings. It also feels solid and taut. For reference, I have Pierce Motorsport's street suspension package, along with TB 4-point brace.

 

[Waterfan]

As my own general rule, and for what I have gleaned for the FiST as well: Bracing before additional roll stiffness. And Springs/Shocks/Coilovers before anti-roll bars (IMO).

Currently lusting after the same Pierce Street Package you linked above.

 

[LilPartyBox]

sooo i went ahead and ordered both. Pierce 2pt and torsion with Cobb sways. slot car it is!

 

[2Cool]

I have the Pierce setup, and honestly cannot see any need for swaybars. The car handles mostly flat, and has no noticeable understeer. In fact I had to pay more attention after adding the torsion bar as it made the car even more tail happy on hard cornering. I see no need to dial in even more oversteer.

 

[meFiSTo]

I have the Pierce setup, and honestly cannot see any need for swaybars. The car handles mostly flat, and has no noticeable understeer. In fact I had to pay more attention after adding the torsion bar as it made the car even more tail happy on hard cornering. I see no need to dial in even more oversteer.

My 2 cents: I agree, but it depends on the behavior you want. I lean to the side of having a more neutral handling experience. I've got the BC coilovers (with the rear dialed slightly softer than the front) and the 4-point PM brace. I'm wary of adding any stiffness to the rear just yet. I'll see how this setup behaves (have not taken it to a track day yet with the brace installed). The last thing I want is to dial in snap oversteer. I tilt to preferring controllable throttle lift oversteer and 4-wheel sliding at the limit. I think that puts me more to the conservative end of the handling preference spectrum.

 

[masonsturbos]

In for more views- about to do the same- bracing or bars lol

 

[LilPartyBox]

I have the Pierce setup, and honestly cannot see any need for swaybars. The car handles mostly flat, and has no noticeable understeer. In fact I had to pay more attention after adding the torsion bar as it made the car even more tail happy on hard cornering. I see no need to dial in even more oversteer.

My 2 cents: I agree, but it depends on the behavior you want. I lean to the side of having a more neutral handling experience. I've got the BC coilovers (with the rear dialed slightly softer than the front) and the 4-point PM brace. I'm wary of adding any stiffness to the rear just yet. I'll see how this setup behaves (have not taken it to a track day yet with the brace installed). The last thing I want is to dial in snap oversteer. I tilt to preferring controllable throttle lift oversteer and 4-wheel sliding at the limit. I think that puts me more to the conservative end of the handling preference spectrum.

As far as need for sway bars. I mean, do we really NEED any of this. lol The torsion bar will add roll resistance but i don't think it will be enough for my personal tastes so i'm going with sways as well. I've always leaned more towards over-steer.

Now I accept that i may be completely full of shit but this was my thought process:

The Cobb kit is 25mm/21mm front/rear vs Eibach which is 27mm/25mm. The thicker, the stiffer the sway, the greater the tendency for it to transfer bump loads from one side to the other, unaffected side. If I'm understanding this all correctly, assuming the steel* used in both kits is similar enough, the Cobb kit is not as stiff as Eibach's. Meaning less unsettling load transfer between sides on bumpy roads. This is one of the reasons i chose Cobb (and the Zerk fittings!).

Correct me if i'm wrong, but I've always thought that the diff in thickness between the front and rear sway (ie. stiffness) determines the shift between understeer and oversteer. The difference between the Cobb sways is double that of the Eibachs. So, in theory the Cobb kit is either leaning more towards understeer or, through the use of a hollow front, the balanced handling they advertise. Either way, adding the rear torsion bar will hopefully either eliminate any minor understeer possibly retained by the thicker front sway or push the claimed balanced handling a bit towards oversteer, which is what i want. I also chose the Cobb over the stiffer Eibachs because imo the Cobb is the more streetable of the two. Not being as stiff should lead to more compliance for mid corner bumps, increasing the likelihood of my contact patch staying where it belongs.

As per Cobb - "The perfectly balanced kit has a 25mm front bar and a 21mm rear bar to resist body-roll, sharpen turn-in response, and reduce understeer. "
Key word there is REDUCE but not eliminate understeer. This leads me to believe that i won't be adding a severe amount of oversteer by running both. Hope that makes sense

* Disclaimer: I can't find any info on whether the Eibach front is hollow like Cobb's but most of my reasoning, if accurate, should still hold water...

 

[RAAMaudio]

I do things a bit differently than most and my car is very quick and very stable, I do not want a loose rear end at high speeds so I did this.

1) BC race version coilovers, ride height set lower while maintaining proper geometry (just installed 8/7k swift springs but not tested yet, ride was a bit softer than expected on 15's)

2) All suspension bushings upgraded including front sway bar bushings and adjustable end links

3) DIY two point brace, pretty sure that is all this car needs at this point but will test a DIY STB and likely the Mishimoto rear brace (rear because I notched the subframe to clear my carefully designed exhaust to flow as smoothly as possible.)

4) 9" wide wheels, 225 wide sticky tires.

------------

Normally I run as stock or mildly stiffer and sometimes no front bar on a FWD car and a very stiff rear bar if IRS.

I have a DIY modded 5 way race grade bar to test from a prior BMW to test on the rear that I made bolt on mounts welded to the axle.

------------

I prefer to run the most spring I can that still has a decent ride and works on the track but OK on the street, too much is not good, too little not good, just enough to help reduce body roll and keep the tires planted is just right

A 8/7k setup will not be super stiff but the Swift springs are very linear compared to the BC springs so two steps up should ride like just one step up, not bad at all, the rear BC were variable rate so a fixed rate will be quite a change over bigger bumps and is much preferred on a track or hard core canyon runs, autocross, etc.

With the design of the strut towers how they are tied to the firewall means very little flex but with wide tires, race, sticky street, wide wheels to keep them planted better, suspension bushings that are firmer yet far more linear, I might induce enough flex to need one. If so it will be focused on the load on the front of the tower but might be two part to go back to the middle of the firewall section instead of straight across and no bends if possible.

 

[Chuckable]

The Cobb kit is 25mm/21mm front/rear vs Eibach which is 27mm/25mm. The thicker, the stiffer the sway, the greater the tendency for it to transfer bump loads from one side to the other, unaffected side. If I'm understanding this all correctly, assuming the steel* used in both kits is similar enough, the Cobb kit is not as stiff as Eibach's. Meaning less unsettling load transfer between sides on bumpy roads. This is one of the reasons i chose Cobb (and the Zerk fittings!).

* Disclaimer: I can't find any info on whether the Eibach front is hollow like Cobb's but most of my reasoning, if accurate, should still hold water...

Suspension tuning is a science, and you'll get different opinions. People who track their car a lot (like RAAMaudio and others on the forum) may even have a difference of opinion among themselves. Plus, people have different driving styles.

Anyway, just to clear up any confusion, Eibach markets their bars as 25mm front and 21mm rear: http://eibach.com/america/en/performance-suspension/application-lookup I can't tell you where I read it, but I'm almost positive the Eibach front bar is hollow.

Also, I believe that Eibach manufactures the bars for Cobb, and that they may just be re-branded Eibach items. This topic was covered on another FiST forum sometime last year.

 

[LilPartyBox]

I'm an ass. I was picking focus st on their lookup tool. And not just once but repeatedly Guess we know what i really wanted to buy lol

So i could've gotten Eibachs as well. But i like that Cobb included the zerk fittings

 

[RAAMaudio]

I agree, we can have very different setups depending on driving style, level the car is being taken to and how far the driver will push the envelope on track, my car is not a pure race car but has many of the mods of one and will be driven like one so I do things to keep it as safe as possible while doing so. I have also studied some of the very best suspension books on handling and work from that perspective as well as this is my 3rd FWD build for street and track duty, the last one was even more extreme and rarely on the street, 8k miles in 8 years.

If I was building the car for less overall speed and all out driving I could of done things much simpler and still have an incredible little car to drive, it is a very fine chassis to start with!

I still have a lot of testing to do but the car worked so well as it was I decided to just to better and a bit stiffer springs first as it rides almost to soft for me on the street. When a buddy that was driving his NASA ST1 Vette national championship car behind me through the Attitudes at MMP said he could not gain on my in that area of the track that means the car is doing exceptionally well. 600 or 700 HP did not hold him back even on a relatively short straight though when his car weighs a bit less than mine which was 2575lbs at the time and has 335 slicks on it

Unfortunately I believe, and have somebody that knows a great deal more than I do and a lot about this car agree with me, there are parts some really do not need or out of sequence being put on the cars.

If one wants to maximize the car there is a bit of an order to things, variable of course due to end goals, budget, etc but this is how I look at it and my cars are fast on the track and easy to drive quickly. (Except one setup for more like rally type driving at autocrosses, great fun

1) much lighter weight wheels with appropriate tires, I would spend my money on this far before any other mod.

2) better shocks, stock ones are not that great

3) springs perhaps unless shocks are available work with with the stock rates, which I do not even know, it would be nice to though if anybody wants to post it.

4) Skip 2 and 3 and get some coilovers that fit your needs.

5) More front camber, actually I would do this before 2-4 personally but also I would be adding more negative rear camber, as I did.

6) 2 point front brace

7) suspension bushings

8) now is the time to play with other chassis stiffeners and or sway bars which I am going to do soon.

For many the best bet might be this.
1) wheels and tires
2) shocks
3) springs
4) coilovers
5) front 2 point
6) sways and or additional stiffeners

What many do not seem to understand is adding weight makes the car slower so add as little as possible and take away all you can live without.

 

[MeisterR]

Right, coming from me and might sound a bit bias, but good coilovers normally will be my first chassis mod.
Why? Because you gain a lot of control and take out a lot of factory compromise.
A factory suspension have a lot of compromise, and as damper are not adjustable they have to make some decision on what appeal to the most customer.
I normally find OEM "sport" suspensions under sprung and over damped, because they need the soft springs for compliancy and just stiffer damping to provide control.
This result in uncomfortable freeway driving, but body roll when you really lean into a corner.

A good coilovers will run a stiffer springs rate than the OEM, and the reason we do so is because we can.
When you have stiffer springs (not too stiff), and adjustable damper, you are able to tune the suspension to do what you want.
Softer adjustments on road, stiffer adjustments on track, and adjusting front and rear to control bias of the car.

Most customers from history have got the coilovers and 80% are happy.
The other 20% will get anti-roll bar to help with the side to side roll, but that is about it.
Once you have control of the damping, it make a huge difference as you can directly control how the load and how much load are put onto the tyres.
That is how you gain maximum traction out of sticky tyres such as semi-slicks, and how you get comfort on a daily driver, all in a single package.

Jerrick