+300whp Big Turbo FiSTs - Driveability, Engine Limits, and Reliability

[Brura22]

Hmmm.. how do our engines handle 300whp daily?

 

[RAAMaudio]

An engine is an air pump, turbo chargers, superchargers, etc, force more air into the chamber, add more fuel, correct timing, make more power which occurs within 90% of the range of the strongest part of the stroke. That is why any decently built engine can make a lot more power with boost than without but the tuning has to be very well done to ensure it does not end up in detonation which is igniting the fuel before the piston is all the way up, pounding on it basically with an explosion on every compression cycle.

 

[Brura22]

Okay i understand all of that lol. Im not new to engines and tuning.

I wanted to know how our engines handle 300whp daily. I know its all tuning, but literally, how do the internals handle it...

Tuning wont make out engine handle 2000whp stock internals.

 

[Hijinx]

Peron's Twin Scroll Turbo Kit for Fiesta ST

Hmmm.. how do our engines handle 300whp daily?

I daily at about 350whp. Been at 300+ for about 10k miles now. [MENTION=2886]FearTheSnail[/MENTION] has probably the same amount of miles with his power too.

Edit- I make at least one full sweep of 3rd or 4th every time I drive mine. Because it's fun as hell.

 

[Hijinx]

An engine is an air pump, turbo chargers, superchargers, etc, force more air into the chamber, add more fuel, correct timing, make more power which occurs within 90% of the range of the strongest part of the stroke. That is why any decently built engine can make a lot more power with boost than without but the tuning has to be very well done to ensure it does not end up in detonation which is igniting the fuel before the piston is all the way up, pounding on it basically with an explosion on every compression cycle.

Real quick: detonation is the ignition of leftover fuel (by heat, after spark) when the cylinder is headed dead bottom center. You described pre-ignition.

 

[Brura22]

I daily at about 350whp. Been at 300+ for about 10k miles now. [MENTION=2886]FearTheSnail[/MENTION] has probably the same amount of miles with his power too.

Edit- I make at least one full sweep of 3rd or 4th every time I drive mine. Because it's fun as hell.

No issues at all? What turbo are you running? Gas? And tune?
Sorry, trying to figure out a route i want

 

[Hijinx]

No issues at all? What turbo are you running? Gas? And tune?
Sorry, trying to figure out a route i want

The only real issue is traction when the temps are freezing. Both myself and the member I mentioned are running DHM GTX450r (tuned by DHM) kits on a E30 mix. We also have the Stratified Aux fuel kit which is why we're making so much more power. But that kit can make 300whp on 93 easily. If you consider it an issue, it won't spool like this twin scroll kit. We see 28-29psi around 4krpm... My air is really nice, so sometimes when the temps are low I hit peak at 3.krpm.

But, anyway, as far as general things go, I don't burn oil, gas mileage is about 27 mixed for me (E30), no overboosting, no transmission problems (and I'm on the stock "RMM")... Anything you want to ask as far as problems in general? I don't have any real ones I can think of. I mean, there's more general maintenance, checking the OCC, inspecting oil/vac/boost lines...nothing crazy like performing a leak down every 500 miles.

 

[Brura22]

Hmm sounds solid. Ive been looking at DHM setups.
And itll def be regular gas. I dont have e30 options out here

 

[FearTheSnail]

I daily at about 350whp. Been at 300+ for about 10k miles now. [MENTION=2886]FearTheSnail[/MENTION] has probably the same amount of miles with his power too.

Edit- I make at least one full sweep of 3rd or 4th every time I drive mine. Because it's fun as hell.

Currently have 40,000 miles on my car. The turbo went on at 18,000 miles. So... 22,000 miles.

 

[antarctica24]

Answer to your question

Okay i understand all of that lol. Im not new to engines and tuning.

I wanted to know how our engines handle 300whp daily. I know its all tuning, but literally, how do the internals handle it...

Tuning wont make out engine handle 2000whp stock internals.

Let me give you some perspective from a different point of view. The physical limitation of this motor is 424tq.

With that said, drive ability with 300/300 daily is no different than 200/200 or in my case on a previous car of 822/693 which I drove daily it is all in the driver and the pedal. You have read that I drive about 6000 miles per month but I don't drive pedal to the floor all day and through every shift even when I am powering through the gears. I do have moments but his would be the case for everyone who drives including yourself. You adjust for conditions and scenarios. I would be willing to bet that even Rick when racing does not pedal to the floor every shit because he is constantly making adjustments based on where he is in on the track he is racing. Everything Rick said is correct as you have stated you already know but to apply your question to daily driving really requires both our answers and you probably know that as well.

There is the saying that lights that burn twice as bright burn half as long and that absolutely applies here. The ecoboost motor is not indestructible even with the best tune but oddly enough what Rick said applies to car stereo speakers as well. It's all in the tune as to how long it will last. You can always apply more power to a speaker than its rated power provided the audio is not distorted and this engine is no different. Driving this car daily your not going to hammer on it all the time but when you do how it will respond is completly be dependent on the accuracy of your tune. Rick nor Russ nor 2j have to worry as much about tuning when racing as when daily driving because the conditions. When racing your conditions are known. The weather, the temps, conditions all known. Daily driving not so much so the tune as you know has to be more conservative. Rick apparently is independently wealthy the guy has had according to his post at least 3 different turbos on his car. You and I maybe not so much so posts like this thread are so important because so much of this is unknown. What we do know is the upper limit of this motor it is 424fttq I got that the other day from Russ at DHM. That does not mean you can drive daily with 423fttq and the motor will last and you probably know that. That means the motor gave up the ghost at 424.

With all of that nonsense said there are so many other things to consider for daily diving and I am an expert in this area regarding high horse power cars. I personally tuned the 822hp car and the fiesta is no different in this regard. You reach a point where you are getting beyond the daily drivability of the what the car and chassis were designed for. On a race track where these guys are spending their time everything is known where as daily driving everything is unknown. These guys are pushing the limits and they are getting lucky. When you start having to mess with the fuel system, suspension, axels, transmission, you are messing with the things that make the car a daily driver. Knowing everything I know with over 20 years experience in building high performance street cars, I'm telling you that 300hp/300ft Tq is the real world number upper limit of this car being able to be driven reliably on the street everyday without having too many major problems. Just because some of these guys are pushing 350-400 at the track and then driving it home does not make it a daily driver. Daily driver means you drive it 30-70 miles per day and you change the oil every 3-5000 miles and every 30,000 to 40,000 you change the brakes and every 50,000 you change the tires. Anything else your having to do to makntain the car and it is not a daily driver. Why? Because those are the things you do when daily driving your car. Having to constantly change your tune removes you from the daily driver group becuase that is not something you would normally do daily nor would adjusting the suspension, fuel system, bov or anything else for that matter. If your having to add something to the car to drive it everyday it is not a daily driver like alcohol or meth just to keep it from blowing up it is not a daily driver. Adding gas is not the same so all you nay Sayers don't even go there and you know it.

Based on my experience and research the real upper limit for daily driver reliability on this car to be the exact same as it comes from the factory is 270hp and 270tq. Rick is a stupid knowledgable guy and he is doing all of the stuff I was doing before I moved to ford and he is pushing the limits of what the car can do and he does so with great thought behind it. But make no mistake this car, the motor, tranny, suspension, chassis, fuel system were not designed to deal with 375ft tq everyday and at those power numbers you are pushing your luck.

This car is dumb fun at 180/200. And extra 100hp and 80ft tq is more than enough to enjoy. More than enough.

 

[Brura22]

Let me give you some perspective from a different point of view. The physical limitation of this motor is 424tq.

With that said, drive ability with 300/300 daily is no different than 200/200 or in my case on a previous car of 822/693 which I drove daily it is all in the driver and the pedal. You have read that I drive about 6000 miles per month but I don't drive pedal to the floor all day and through every shift even when I am powering through the gears. I do have moments but his would be the case for everyone who drives including yourself. You adjust for conditions and scenarios. I would be willing to bet that even Rick when racing does not pedal to the floor every shit because he is constantly making adjustments based on where he is in on the track he is racing. Everything Rick said is correct as you have stated you already know but to apply your question to daily driving really requires both our answers and you probably know that as well.

There is the saying that lights that burn twice as bright burn half as long and that absolutely applies here. The ecoboost motor is not indestructible even with the best tune but oddly enough what Rick said applies to car stereo speakers as well. It's all in the tune as to how long it will last. You can always apply more power to a speaker than its rated power provided the audio is not distorted and this engine is no different. Driving this car daily your not going to hammer on it all the time but when you do how it will respond is completly be dependent on the accuracy of your tune. Rick nor Russ nor 2j have to worry as much about tuning when racing as when daily driving because the conditions. When racing your conditions are known. The weather, the temps, conditions all known. Daily driving not so much so the tune as you know has to be more conservative. Rick apparently is independently wealthy the guy has had according to his post at least 3 different turbos on his car. You and I maybe not so much so posts like this thread are so important because so much of this is unknown. What we do know is the upper limit of this motor it is 424fttq I got that the other day from Russ at DHM. That does not mean you can drive daily with 423fttq and the motor will last and you probably know that. That means the motor gave up the ghost at 424.

With all of that nonsense said there are so many other things to consider for daily diving and I am an expert in this area regarding high horse power cars. I personally tuned the 822hp car and the fiesta is no different in this regard. You reach a point where you are getting beyond the daily drivability of the what the car and chassis were designed for. On a race track where these guys are spending their time everything is known where as daily driving everything is unknown. These guys are pushing the limits and they are getting lucky. When you start having to mess with the fuel system, suspension, axels, transmission, you are messing with the things that make the car a daily driver. Knowing everything I know with over 20 years experience in building high performance street cars, I'm telling you that 300hp/300ft Tq is the real world number upper limit of this car being able to be driven reliably on the street everyday without having too many major problems. Just because some of these guys are pushing 350-400 at the track and then driving it home does not make it a daily driver. Daily driver means you drive it 30-70 miles per day and you change the oil every 3-5000 miles and every 30,000 to 40,000 you change the brakes and every 50,000 you change the tires. Anything else your having to do to makntain the car and it is not a daily driver. Why? Because those are the things you do when daily driving your car. Having to constantly change your tune removes you from the daily driver group becuase that is not something you would normally do daily nor would adjusting the suspension, fuel system, bov or anything else for that matter. If your having to add something to the car to drive it everyday it is not a daily driver like alcohol or meth just to keep it from blowing up it is not a daily driver. Adding gas is not the same so all you nay Sayers don't even go there and you know it.

Based on my experience and research the real upper limit for daily driver reliability on this car to be the exact same as it comes from the factory is 270hp and 270tq. Rick is a stupid knowledgable guy and he is doing all of the stuff I was doing before I moved to ford and he is pushing the limits of what the car can do and he does so with great thought behind it. But make no mistake this car, the motor, tranny, suspension, chassis, fuel system were not designed to deal with 375ft tq everyday and at those power numbers you are pushing your luck.

This car is dumb fun at 180/200. And extra 100hp and 80ft tq is more than enough to enjoy. More than enough.

Scrolled to the bottom of your post and read 270. Lol thanks

 

[antarctica24]

Perspective Part 2

Scrolled to the bottom of your post and read 270. Lol thanks

What no one on this forum is talking about is what boost really is? It is a measure of restriction. The better you can make a motor breath aka air in, air out, the more efficiently it makes power. Why do we care? Your question originated around daily drivability and the more stress you put on the rods and crank, and the more heat you generate were back to the brighter the bulb the shorter the life.

For example, In the scenario I presented, one of the cars I built, started around you'll never make more than 600rwhp on the stock computer. I not only did it, but made the 822RWHP and 693FTTQ on 15 lbs of boost. Not 20, not 25, not 30. 15. To make it daily drivable was a major undertaking.

To make the power required a modified engine, modified fuel system, modified rear end, modified suspension, braking, and cooling system to get started.
To make it daily drivable required an electric water pump, bigger radiator, lots of fuel added to cool the air coming in at idle, it was a big deal and the car managed to get 26mpg on the hwy. This was a 2002 Trans Am with a 427SB with a procharger.

This car would be better off with a little more displacement and less boost.

You read all of the stuff everyone is doing to this Fiesta, and I do question some of it.

For example, have you ever watched a video of a 350+ HP fiesta leaving the line at a drag strip. The car is spitting and sputtering because it cannot get any traction. Very light car.

People on the forum here are trying to lighten the car when in fact you should not be doing anything to the weight especially if you are adding more power. If you have a pickup and are driving in the snow, what is the first thing you do......you add weight to the back of the car to get traction.

2nd, I don't care what race people will tell you about headers, But when it comes to turbos, the shorter the better especially on a small engine and small turbo. We are talking about milliseconds from the time the exhaust leaves the chamber to the time it gets to the turbo to spin it, but the quicker the air gets to the turbo the faster it spins the turbo. There is something to timing of getting which cylinder to the turbo quicker, but the difference does not justify the cost and certainly not the added heat to the engine compartment that you get with tubular headers and to the engine.

The more power you add the better the lag is. WTF are you for real??????? Yep, because when at a drag strip it is all about getting off the line and getting moving. Your not going to get 20 inch wide tires on the front of your car, so you need help getting off the line and you can make up the difference in time lost on the slow take off, on the back end of the track because you are already moving and as power comes on, traction becomes less of a problem. AKA why there are so many videos of people racing from 50mph. They didn't know how to design the setup of not only the engine but the forced induction they used. One of two things happened, either their turbo was so big, boost didn't come on until way later in the RPM curve or there was so much torque down low, they couldn't get off the line.

2nd, when you are on a road course you are already RPM high, so getting boost to come on is not a problem.

Racing is all about control, and if you have 350+ hp in this little car, and every time you go to launch your car you are sideways and trying to hold the steering wheel straight what fun is that only to show off. Personally if I am racing a FWD car I want to put my foot straight to the floor and have the car get off the line and then have the power come on. That gives me a controlled launch and then all I have to do is hold the wheel straight for the rest of the ride. You also don't want a lot of torque on a road course with a light weight car, because then it becomes very difficult to manage in hard turns. One of the things that makes this car so much fun is in the twistys. Just before the curve you go to accelerate or downshift and accelerate. If you are over torqued, now you have manhandle the car and the fun is gone.

I am not saying add weight, I am saying leave the car as it is weight wise. If you are keeping the stock setup, and want to road race, then making the car lighter makes sense.

As for boost being a restriction, that is a fact. Only one company has messed around with the heads on this car, and cyborg has ported and polished the turbo. That is where the real gains are made and being able to keep the car daily drivable. MAP said when they looked at the mustang heads, they were junk and I believe it. If you look at the LS1 world the #1 first upgrade is improve breathability that is head, header cam exhaust. MAP said they will be working on porting a head later this year. Not soon enough for me.

I strongly believe if the factory log, the turbo and the heads are all opened up, using cyborgs turbo or something along those lines, you will find that spool up happens very quickly and has a very long power band and by opening the heads, you can make more power on less boost, and reduce the strain you get from higher boost. Imagine making 270HP on this car with only 19lbs of boost or less, I could raise the compression from 10:1 to 10.5 to one and gain 30hp or more.

Look at Cyborgs numbers and he says he is pushing it on the tune, and he did nothing to the heads. He just got a bigger compressor wheel, and port and polished the headers. ATP turbo uses the same headers what does that tell you?

The other thing no one has talked about here is price vs performance. We are making close to 200/200 and 210/280 with very little effort at a cost of somewhere between $2500 and 2900 depending on who you buy the stuff from. We do not need to replace the air intake under 300HP. The factory intake does a better job than anything anyone has produced. But when you talk about spending $6000.00 for a twin scroll? For what 100hp? Or $4200 for a turbo, tubular headers, down pipe, and such for 120hp? adding all of the extra heat to the equation you are dramatically killing the clock on the engine.

As for my comments here, everyone has they own experience and some might disagree with what I have said here and that is ok. I am not trying to offend anyone, I am simply offering a different opinion based on my own experience. Over the last 10 years I have spent close to $250,000 on modifying my cars and the one great lesson I learned was ROI (return on investment). While all were a lot of fun at the time, smaller always ends up being better and the less stuff you change on the car the more time you will be able to enjoy the car aka to your question drivability.

I recently purchased a FMIC, charge pipes, Recir BOV, Catted down pipe, 3" exhaust and accessport from MAPERFORMANCE. Why and why not cobb? Price. I am invested $2500.00 and free shipping. Had I purchased the Air Intake I would be $2700 deep, still cheaper than COBB. I am not downing COBB, I am just saying I feel I got at least the same quality product for less money. That's all. I will post my real DYNO'd numbers as soon as I have everything installed and tuned. Virtual DYNO's don't count at least in my book. If you are going to sell something you need to back it up and I suspect that a real dyno is not going to produce the same numbers a virtual dyno produces. The next obvious modification is the heads, then if that does not get me to 270, then I will look at the turbo and porting the log.

and remember I did not do anything to the car until I hit 154,000 miles.

If I inadvertently offended anyone by anything I said here, it was not my intent. I was only trying to offer a different opinion based on my own personal experience. There are always two sides to every coin.

 

[Hijinx]

Let me give you some perspective from a different point of view. The physical limitation of this motor is 424tq.

With that said, drive ability with 300/300 daily is no different than 200/200 or in my case on a previous car of 822/693 which I drove daily it is all in the driver and the pedal. You have read that I drive about 6000 miles per month but I don't drive pedal to the floor all day and through every shift even when I am powering through the gears. I do have moments but his would be the case for everyone who drives including yourself. You adjust for conditions and scenarios. I would be willing to bet that even Rick when racing does not pedal to the floor every shit because he is constantly making adjustments based on where he is in on the track he is racing. Everything Rick said is correct as you have stated you already know but to apply your question to daily driving really requires both our answers and you probably know that as well.

There is the saying that lights that burn twice as bright burn half as long and that absolutely applies here. The ecoboost motor is not indestructible even with the best tune but oddly enough what Rick said applies to car stereo speakers as well. It's all in the tune as to how long it will last. You can always apply more power to a speaker than its rated power provided the audio is not distorted and this engine is no different. Driving this car daily your not going to hammer on it all the time but when you do how it will respond is completly be dependent on the accuracy of your tune. Rick nor Russ nor 2j have to worry as much about tuning when racing as when daily driving because the conditions. When racing your conditions are known. The weather, the temps, conditions all known. Daily driving not so much so the tune as you know has to be more conservative. Rick apparently is independently wealthy the guy has had according to his post at least 3 different turbos on his car. You and I maybe not so much so posts like this thread are so important because so much of this is unknown. What we do know is the upper limit of this motor it is 424fttq I got that the other day from Russ at DHM. That does not mean you can drive daily with 423fttq and the motor will last and you probably know that. That means the motor gave up the ghost at 424.

With all of that nonsense said there are so many other things to consider for daily diving and I am an expert in this area regarding high horse power cars. I personally tuned the 822hp car and the fiesta is no different in this regard. You reach a point where you are getting beyond the daily drivability of the what the car and chassis were designed for. On a race track where these guys are spending their time everything is known where as daily driving everything is unknown. These guys are pushing the limits and they are getting lucky. When you start having to mess with the fuel system, suspension, axels, transmission, you are messing with the things that make the car a daily driver. Knowing everything I know with over 20 years experience in building high performance street cars, I'm telling you that 300hp/300ft Tq is the real world number upper limit of this car being able to be driven reliably on the street everyday without having too many major problems. Just because some of these guys are pushing 350-400 at the track and then driving it home does not make it a daily driver. Daily driver means you drive it 30-70 miles per day and you change the oil every 3-5000 miles and every 30,000 to 40,000 you change the brakes and every 50,000 you change the tires. Anything else your having to do to makntain the car and it is not a daily driver. Why? Because those are the things you do when daily driving your car. Having to constantly change your tune removes you from the daily driver group becuase that is not something you would normally do daily nor would adjusting the suspension, fuel system, bov or anything else for that matter. If your having to add something to the car to drive it everyday it is not a daily driver like alcohol or meth just to keep it from blowing up it is not a daily driver. Adding gas is not the same so all you nay Sayers don't even go there and you know it.

Based on my experience and research the real upper limit for daily driver reliability on this car to be the exact same as it comes from the factory is 270hp and 270tq. Rick is a stupid knowledgable guy and he is doing all of the stuff I was doing before I moved to ford and he is pushing the limits of what the car can do and he does so with great thought behind it. But make no mistake this car, the motor, tranny, suspension, chassis, fuel system were not designed to deal with 375ft tq everyday and at those power numbers you are pushing your luck.

This car is dumb fun at 180/200. And extra 100hp and 80ft tq is more than enough to enjoy. More than enough.

I put down 369whp at ~7300rpm on vDyno yesterday. Didn't see an accurate wtq peak because the car breaks traction ever so slightly at 55mph.

This is my daily.

It's not cumbersome and the only irregular maintenance I do is checking my OCC weekly. Russ has it tuned pretty smoothly, so it's not "on/off" power. And I go WOT probably twice a day weather/traffic permitting.

So, I have to respectfully disagree with you regarding the Fiesta.

 

[BoostBumps]

+300whp Big Turbo FiSTs - Driveability, Engine Limitations, Long Term Reliability Discussions

Moved a few posts over from Peron Twin Scroll Turbo Thread to continue this general discussion / topic in this new thread....

 

[Wimp Lo]

If changing your tires more frequently than every 50,000 miles means my car isn't a daily driver, Ford sold me a race car.

It is rather easy to cross a line where something screws up the driving experience. That could be breaking stuff, power that comes on too abruptly, stiff suspension, tire noise, exhaust drone, etc.

Right now I'm dealing with bad tire noise and I find the stock turbo donkey punch just makes me pedal the car so I don't lose traction or have traction control intervene.

For me, I'm hoping a big turbo will make the power delivery more useable and give me more up top where the stock turbo falls on its face. Heat is an issue which is why I bought a turbo blanket, header wrap and a Mishimoto radiator (and a big intercooler too). I might add an oil cooler if the radiator and stock heat exchanger is not enough.

Putting a number limit on the car is premature. I am hoping to hit 330+ with an ethanol mix which I don't think is too much, it is just about as much as I can hope for with the stock fuel system. I just hope I don't become tire poor.

 

[RAAMaudio]

We all have our wants, needs, desires, expectations, experiences, etc but I think we can all agree on a quick little car can be great fun more often than most cars out there and this is one of the best ever

My original goal was to have a decently wide powerband so I was close to having good pull most of the time and around 275WHP but became closer to 320WHP after I first tracked the car with around 220WHP and realized I needed about 100 more to keep up with some cars on the straights I hang with, some very fast cars but normally not driven that well so I do not end up stuck behind a "drag racer" on a road course which is dreadfully annoying.

With the EFR and looking at other results I just had to much lag making the car a handful to drive a comfortably fast pace up a mountain road having to keep the revs so high all the time, it would of been very difficult to autocross, which I seldom do but might want to on occasion.

I am quite sure the GT290R DHM will do all I need coupled with WMI, I was going to run the 5th injector but without proven at the time at least how safely it could be used on a full time basis I decided on WMI. I bought 5 gallons of methanol, four 2 gallon jugs, two 1 gallon jugs, mixed 10 gallons of 50/50, I can safely carry an extra gallon now in the car so have plenty on side trips as we travel and just take the car, the rest goes in the tool box in the truck.

---------------

I personally feel manufactures are selling cars with far to much power to anybody with the money no matter if they have any driving skills or not and many are modding cars far beyond any reasonable level, in the end this effects all of us one way or another.

 

[jeff]

You read all of the stuff everyone is doing to this Fiesta, and I do question some of it.

The other thing no one has talked about here is price vs performance. We are making close to 200/200 and 210/280 with very little effort at a cost of somewhere between $2500 and 2900 depending on who you buy the stuff from. We do not need to replace the air intake under 300HP. The factory intake does a better job than anything anyone has produced. But when you talk about spending $6000.00 for a twin scroll? For what 100hp? Or $4200 for a turbo, tubular headers, down pipe, and such for 120hp? adding all of the extra heat to the equation you are dramatically killing the clock on the engine.

As for my comments here, everyone has they own experience and some might disagree with what I have said here and that is ok. I am not trying to offend anyone, I am simply offering a different opinion based on my own experience. Over the last 10 years I have spent close to $250,000 on modifying my cars and the one great lesson I learned was ROI (return on investment). While all were a lot of fun at the time, smaller always ends up being better and the less stuff you change on the car the more time you will be able to enjoy the car aka to your question drivability.

I recently purchased a FMIC, charge pipes, Recir BOV, Catted down pipe, 3" exhaust and accessport from MAPERFORMANCE. Why and why not cobb? Price. I am invested $2500.00 and free shipping. Had I purchased the Air Intake I would be $2700 deep, still cheaper than COBB. I am not downing COBB, I am just saying I feel I got at least the same quality product for less money. That's all. I will post my real DYNO'd numbers as soon as I have everything installed and tuned. Virtual DYNO's don't count at least in my book. If you are going to sell something you need to back it up and I suspect that a real dyno is not going to produce the same numbers a virtual dyno produces. The next obvious modification is the heads, then if that does not get me to 270, then I will look at the turbo and porting the log.

and remember I did not do anything to the car until I hit 154,000 miles.

If I inadvertently offended anyone by anything I said here, it was not my intent. I was only trying to offer a different opinion based on my own personal experience. There are always two sides to every coin.

Thanks for your perspective, i've enjoyed reading your thoughts here. Aside from a minor difference of opinion on the intake question which is being discussed in another thread and not worth discussing here, I completely jive with you from the ROI angle here and also from the feel/drivability/"personality of the car" angle which is why I've landed and plan to stay at my current setup. I'm sure a big turbo FiST is awesome but having had a big turbo Subaru a few years ago I prefer the feeling of my FiST with bolt-ons.

I am happy that this discussion is happening. Being still new to the FiST platform I have read a good bit about different mod paths and it is nice to see some love being given to the idea of restraint for the reasons you mention. Not that I feel less is better for everyone, just that it's better for some people, myself included.

I look forward to reading about your build and results once you get all the parts on and tune done!

 

[RAAMaudio]

For those that want a far more usable power band the stock turbos "donkey kick" is just that, a kick then dies, it really is not that useful in most situations just like having a narrow very high powerband is not that useful unless drag racing.

Just because the torque peak is high does not make it that meaningful, more bragging rights than anything else.

A car that has more all around power is going to be faster in most all situations in real world driving.

The Cyborg version is the only decent way to use the stock turbo and it is more than enough for many, some want a bit more than that or around what it can do but on pump gas, thus need a bigger turbo, which the car should of come with, not huge, just more appropriately sized.

Those that want even more, options are there as well.

 

[GoMax]

Great discussion.
Personally, I'm hoping to go with a twin scroll or 2554 turbo upgrade. I'd like to have a broader torque curve, and be able to keep traction at lower rpms.
I certainly don't need (or really want) 300hp, but I would like something that does not have the donkey kick torque curve, and pulls across the entire rev range.
Currently working on my suspension setup, so it will be a while before the turbo upgrade gets to the top of the list.
-- Max

 

[Wimp Lo]

It is all about power delivery.

From a stop, people could say the donkey punch is already too much.

From a roll, the donkey punch give really fast throttle response but our HP curve looks like a good torque curve, it peaks low and then goes flat.

When I first saw the ATP kits, I as excited then I looked at the power curves and wasn't very impressed. Then the curves never changed, they quit developing it. It was easy to decide against ATP. The Cyborg is tempting because the donkey punch is tamed, the top end is better and the turbo spools at low rpm. While I was looking at that finally I saw what the DHM quickspool was doing while using the same turbo as the second smallest ATP kits. That made up my mind.

I am hoping that I will be happy with the power delivery of the DHM kit. I have read good reports but I think I will have to feel for myself.

I don't have a lot of reference, the only other turbo car I have driven is an old Probe GT with the funky 2.2l 3 valve engine. That car was a light switch but the bulb was pretty dim, it didn't have enough power to bite you. It was entertaining but impractical in the opposite fashion of the donkey punch. Hopefully I will get linear power delivery that increases with rpm and minimal lag.

I want enough power to bite me but controllable delivery. My fingers are crossed.