Stage 2 without supporting mods?

[OffTheWall503]

Silly question, and not that I'm going to do this, but what happens if I were to flash a Stage 2 91 octane map on my FiST with my AP and I don't have supporting mods? From what I understand, all I need is a front mount intercooler upgrade and/or exhaust. But I'm curious as to what could happen if you flashed to that map without the mods needed.

 

[Hijinx]

Are you trolling?

 

[frankiefiesta]

You would be screwed

 

[OffTheWall503]

Not trolling. I'm genuinely curious. I imagine with the Stage 2 map it increases air flow and fuel delivery. I assume without the proper modifications it would run poorly.

 

[Hijinx]

I'm sorry, but I feel like we've discussed these scenarios ad nauseum here on these very forums.

 

[OffTheWall503]

I apologize, I'll do some searching then.

 

[twolf]

You be the guinea pig. let us know.

 

[BradApples]

While I've heard of people running Stage 2 without an intake, I wouldn't try it without an FMIC and at least a high flow filter (COBB or a green filter).

 

[DP03]

Well, the FMIC is probably the most important bolt on. Increased air flow is necessary with more aggressive than stock tunes. However, after being Protuned by Adam, I have learned not to take "required" mods for granted. He actually LOSES power with the Cobb or aftermarket downpipe. I think Cobb has convinced people that it's necessary when it's not. I'm a big Cobb fan, and all of my mods through S3 are Cobb. But I kept the stock DP on Adams recommendation and I trust his advice as a leader in Etunes for the Ecoboost motors. Once a bigger turbo is installed, absolutely necessary but not before. Saved me $$$$ until I upgrade the turbo.

 

[dyn085]

A downpipe has nothing to do with stage 2. I may as well bite the line so that I don't see this nearly exact post multiple times.

While the ST's are far more receptive to tuning than to bolt-ons due to the limiting factor of the turbo, I highly doubt that increasing the efficiency of the turbo is actually going to cause losses when properly evaluated by members. There may be very little or no gains in most situations, but losses are pretty much unheard of. But then again, there are people that believe they will see 20hp gains by bolting on a cat-back...

 

[OffTheWall503]

I will be upgrading to a new FMIC soon and then trying my hand at the Cobb Stage 2 map.

 

[DP03]

Well aware that the DP is S3. And I'm just passing on Adam's findings re: the loss with aftermarket DP's. I doubt the losses are much, but those are his findings...... I bring this up only to give a heads up to those thinking that the DP is necessary for S3 as Cobb markets.....I am running Adams 25psi tune on stock DP and his advise saved me a lot more than the cost of his tune!!

A downpipe has nothing to do with stage 2. I may as well bite the line so that I don't see this nearly exact post multiple times.

While the ST's are far more receptive to tuning than to bolt-ons due to the limiting factor of the turbo, I highly doubt that increasing the efficiency of the turbo is actually going to cause losses when properly evaluated by members. There may be very little or no gains in most situations, but losses are pretty much unheard of. But then again, there are people that believe they will see 20hp gains by bolting on a cat-back...

 

[dyn085]

Well aware that the DP is S3. And I'm just passing on Adam's findings re: the loss with aftermarket DP's. I doubt the losses are much, but those are his findings...... I bring this up only to give a heads up to those thinking that the DP is necessary for S3 as Cobb markets.....I am running Adams 25psi tune on stock DP and his advise saved me a lot more than the cost of his tune!!

Well it's a stage 2 thread, not a stage 3 thread.

Either way, just because you can run the turbo in an inefficient area doesn't mean it's good for the turbo. A custom tune can have you making very near stage 3 power on a stock-hardware setup, especially if you're running the turbo ragged. What you gain by installing 'stage' modifications is safety and longevity through increased efficiency more than power. I still can't recall a single instance where any member lost power by making their exhaust more efficient, and the thought that that could be a possibility almost defies logic.

Basically, you can run a stage 3 or greater tune on stock parts, but that doesn't necessarily mean that it's a good idea.

 

[DP03]

dyn085, not trying to argue here. I am simply trying to help. With all due respect, I trust one of the top Fiesta tuners experience and opinion that has tuned my car and countiess others before. If you want more info, contact Adam at Tune+.

When I was doing research on exhausts on the LS1 engine with my Camaro group, we did in fact find surprises. Some exhausts that were too big hurt performance. And Flowmaster, although extremely popular, actually flowed less than the stock GM exhaust (baffled designs are designed for sound, not flow). No one thought that their money spent on an big name exhaust actually could hurt performance. But it was true.

Unfortunately, not everything is logical. Adam is a great guy and always answers questions. If you are not interested in his opinion, at least let others hear it if it can save them some money. He is not saying an aftermarket DP is a waste. He's just saying that our stock turbo does not flow enough to warrant a bigger pipe. If you look at our turbo, that's not hard to understand. And it's a great investment for those looking for a turbo upgrade.

 

[jeff]

I did exhaustive (get it?) research concerning downpipes as I'd put one on the last 3 cars I owned. I even had a Cobb sitting in my garage ready to install it. I sold it instead and here's why: the downpipe does bring gains on our cars, but the gains are in the low rpm range. At the same time it causes a small loss in the high rpm range. This is based on Adams tuning and dynos. There are people who saw gains across the entire band but that is a point I do not wish to debate. However pretty much the consensus is that tires are spinning more than before and traction is lost even more. I decided against the downpipe because I want useable power and in my opinion a few HP down low, just where I don't need it, is not worth the money not to mention pita install of these things.

 

[dyn085]

dyn085, not trying to argue here. I am simply trying to help. With all due respect, I trust one of the top Fiesta tuners experience and opinion that has tuned my car and countiess others before. If you want more info, contact Adam at Tune+.

When I was doing research on exhausts on the LS1 engine with my Camaro group, we did in fact find surprises. Some exhausts that were too big hurt performance. And Flowmaster, although extremely popular, actually flowed less than the stock GM exhaust (baffled designs are designed for sound, not flow). No one thought that their money spent on an big name exhaust actually could hurt performance. But it was true.

Unfortunately, not everything is logical. Adam is a great guy and always answers questions. If you are not interested in his opinion, at least let others hear it if it can save them some money. He is not saying an aftermarket DP is a waste. He's just saying that our stock turbo does not flow enough to warrant a bigger pipe. If you look at our turbo, that's not hard to understand. And it's a great investment for those looking for a turbo upgrade.

I'm not saying you're trying to argue; this is simply a discussion. The community has had a lot of people parroting information lately that have little or no experience on the platform. While I understand why you're taking the advice you're taking, you're still just passing along information that you don't actually have firsthand experience in.

LSx experience is not necessarily relevant here. I could go into exhaust theory for days, but the fact of the matter is that the turbo is always the most restrictive component in an exhaust...that's kind of the point of it. But beyond that, changes that are made can very much make a difference for the better or for the worse. Maybe it's coincidental and maybe it's not, but his opinion and testing, as a vendor, was 180 degrees out of what the community had previously tested at the time it was presented. Not seeing a gain with a downpipe but seeing a 20 hp gain with just a catback is and should be very questionable.

I can't personally qualify specific parts on my car because I installed them all at the same time, but I will eventually swap out my Cobb DP for a catless DP and will be able to see if any difference exists between the two. I can almost assuredly guarantee that there won't be any loss in allowing the turbo more breathing room, even though I don't expect to see any gains either. Likewise, I can pretty much guarantee that if I that if I throw the OEM DP back on that it will show up as a loss-whether that's in a higher wastegate duty cycle or in actual measured hp/airflow losses.

 

[jeff]

I'm not saying you're trying to argue; this is simply a discussion. The community has had a lot of people parroting information lately that have little or no experience on the platform. While I understand why you're taking the advice you're taking, you're still just passing along information that you don't actually have firsthand experience in.

Seriously. I've read here recently where people discount the effectiveness of mods or other's reviews of them without even having the mod on their car, much less firsthand experience. It's crazy.

 

[DP03]

Seriously. I've read here recently where people discount the effectiveness of mods or other's reviews of them without even having the mod on their car, much less firsthand experience. It's crazy.

Well, the DP isn't exactly the type of mod that you can "try with and without" and switch back and forth. So I let the pro's do that for me. It's not just Adam, its really a general consensus that the DP for the stock turbo offer VERY little benefit (Ok, I'm willing to drop the loss of power argument). I would bet that my car as it sits would go evenly against any other S3 car with similar mods and that have the DP. You can get defensive, I'm just glad to postpone a $1,000 mod until its needed. Plus, the turbo I decide to upgrade to may or may not be compatible with the down pipe that I chose to put on now. Just doesn't make any sense......

Again guys, I didn't come here to be combative. I was just very surprised to find the results of this and wanted to share. And I am not new to modifying whatsoever. Many a car and a few turbo cars at a whole different level (Evo X). The Fiesta motor just happens to be different.

Jeff, you are tuned by Adam. Have you had this conversation with him?

Happy Modding!

 

[jeff]

Well, the DP isn't exactly the type of mod that you can "try with and without" and switch back and forth. So I let the pro's do that for me. It's not just Adam, its really a general consensus that the DP for the stock turbo offer VERY little benefit (Ok, I'm willing to drop the loss of power argument). I would bet that my car as it sits would go evenly against any other S3 car with similar mods and that have the DP. You can get defensive, I'm just glad to postpone a $1,000 mod until its needed. Plus, the turbo I decide to upgrade to may or may not be compatible with the down pipe that I chose to put on now. Just doesn't make any sense......

Again guys, I didn't come here to be combative. I was just very surprised to find the results of this and wanted to share. And I am not new to modifying whatsoever. Many a car and a few turbo cars at a whole different level (Evo X). The Fiesta motor just happens to be different.

Jeff, you are tuned by Adam. Have you had this conversation with him?

Happy Modding!

No sir, we are 100% thinking the same, didn't mean to mislead you. I started a thread about 2 months ago called "the merits of a stage 2 setup", and there I explained the exact reasons why I chose NOT to go downpipe/exhaust and then big turbo. To me what we call "stage 2" is the perfect first price point for this car. That is, you spend $1000-$2000 depending on mods and you have a ton more power. The next price point would be a cyborg/big turbo upgrade, but the money spent there is a bit more and not where I'm going with this car. I feel the personality of the FiST works really well with the mod setup I have right now.

To summarize, my initial plan was DP and I had a Cobb sitting in my garage. But the more I researched, including a few conversations with Adam Brunson, I found that it wasn't worth the money or install difficulty for the power gained, at least in my opinion. Cobb says the DP/exhaust brought 7 HP. 7 HP for $1000? No way! Totally not worth it IMHO. Then, I dug deeper and spoke with Adam. His dyno charts showed the the DP does bring gains down low (2-3000 rpms) but brings losses up high (5-6000 rpm). The FiST already has plenty of power down low and needs more up top; why would I want to add power where it's not needed and take power where it is needed? Plus when I read the reviews both here and youtube of the stage 3 cars, they pretty much had no traction in 1st or 2nd gear. Not for me.

So, I sold the DP and stopped at what we call "stage 2" mods, got a custom tune from Adam, and I am extremely happy. My car v-dynos around 215/295 and I have 95% traction. That was not the case at first, I was in bad shape until I put the 2 Pierce bars (in my sig, highly recommended) on my car.....now things are wonderful. A bit of torque steer but tires are contacting the road 95% of the time in 1st or 2nd.

I put a DP on my last 3 cars (Scooby, Acura, Toyota) to great effect....but not on the FiST. It is quite happy without one.

That's not a slam to anyone who has a DP on their car. Just my line of thought.

 

[dyn085]

$1000 for a downpipe? The Cobb DP, which is one of the most expensive, is only $500. Catless versions from other vendors, which should improve efficiency further, can be had for as little as $200. This is definitely not a massively-expensive modification.