Swift Springs Installed

Background: I recently acquired a 2017 Fiesta ST with ~25,000 miles, single owner, completely stock with no trace of having been modified. Good, healthy canvas to do some subtle modifications. On the suspension side, I want to keep things fairly simple. I installed some 17x7 OZ Superturismo GTs and swift springs on stock dampers. I replaced the rear upper spring pads with whoosh (although the OEM pads looked fine).

Installation: Installed the springs yesterday. Installation was very easy/smooth - love the simplicity of these cars. I have lots of tools and a good impact, which helps speed things up. Front took about 45 minutes/corner, and the rear took 30 minutes (I left the wheels on, lowering the torsion bar on a jack). ~2 hours total, taking my time.

Initial test drive: On the first test drive they felt incredibly harsh/crashy. Concerningly so (was thinking I'd probably ditch them quickly). Pulled back into the garage and decided to call it a night and try again tomorrow.

Subsequent test drive: Today, I went for another drive. Before setting off, I reduced my tire pressure from 39/36 to 36/34. The car was orders of magnitude more compliant on my drive today. I'm not sure whether to attribute the change to the tire pressures, or having given the car 24 hours to settle on its new springs. Either way, I was very pleasantly surprised.

Initial review/comparison to stock springs: Overall, the swift springs really tighten the car up. Body roll went from moderate to nearly zero. There is no longer any dive under hard braking. Turn in is incredibly crisp/immediate, even with the lower tire pressures. The ride is firmer, but not jarring. Overall, very pleased so far. I haven't put the car through real paces on twisty roads, so can't comment on dynamic handling changes yet. I loved the balance of the stock springs, so I'm hoping the car remains as playful as it was. Sometimes a bit of body roll helps with weight transfer, and I wasn't expecting the car to become SO flat. TBD. I may have stayed with stock springs, but wanted to lower the car to suit the OZ wheels, and I had read nothing but rave reviews about the swift springs on here so went with them. I was between swift and mountune.

Negatives - torque steer/alignment: One side effect that I have noticed with the new springs is more pronounced torque steer in 2nd and third. The car had very little out of the box. Now, the wheel seems to favor pulls to the right, and I definitely need to wrestle with it more when accelerating hard through turns. It isn't terrible, but it's there. I assume this is a result of changed alignment/geometry after lowering. Have others experienced this? I assume the answer is a proper alignment. Would be curious to hear what alignment settings people have gone with on swift springs (or springs offering a similar ~1" drop front and rear). And were you able to clean up camber without crash bolts, or should I purchase/install those before bringing it to an alignment shop? It's been a very long time since I've gotten an alignment, so I am curious to hear if people have had luck with any of the big box tire shops.

Goals: My use case is sporty back road driving. It isn't a track car, although I'm sure I will get it out on track at some point. As for tires, I am on General G-MAX AS-07s. I've been very impressed with them so far. Once it gets warmer in my climate, I will likely switch to a moderate summer tire (340+ treadwear, such as Pilot Sport 5s). I won't go to a crazy sticky 200 treadwear tire.

Would love to hear what folks have had good results with from an alignment standpoint!

First two pictures are before (Stock Springs):



Next two pictures are after (Swift Springs on Stock Struts, Whoosh upper coil pads in rear):

This is what ChatGPT had to say regarding the torque steer issue. Pretty unbelievable that it can give such application specific diagnosis/recommendations..........

You said:
I installed swift lowering springs on my 2017 ford fiesta ST. They dropped the ride height by approximately 1” front and rear. The car now exhibits more torque steer than it had when stock. What do you think is causing this, and how can I rectify it?

ChatGPT said:
Lowering your 2017 Ford Fiesta ST with Swift springs has likely altered the suspension geometry, which can contribute to increased torque steer. Here are the main reasons why this is happening and how to address it:
Causes of Increased Torque Steer:

1. Altered Suspension Geometry
   • Lowering changes the angles of the control arms and steering rack, which can result in unequal axle shaft angles. This imbalance increases torque steer.
2. Increased Negative Camber
   • The drop likely increased negative camber, changing how the tires make contact with the road under acceleration. If not properly aligned, this can exacerbate torque steer.
3. Bump Steer Effects
   • Lowering changes the tie rod angle, potentially increasing bump steer. When the suspension moves, the wheels may toe in or out unpredictably, worsening torque steer.
4. Axle Shaft Misalignment
   • If one axle is at a significantly different angle than the other (common after lowering), it can cause uneven torque transfer, leading to more pronounced torque steer.
5. Changes in Roll Center
   • The roll center shifts when lowering, potentially increasing the leverage torque steer has on the chassis.

Solutions to Reduce Torque Steer:

1. Get a Professional Alignment
   • Ensure toe and camber are within factory specs. A small amount of toe-in can help stabilize steering.
2. Install Adjustable Front Lower Control Arm Bushings
   • Correcting caster and camber angles can help restore proper suspension geometry.
3. Correct Bump Steer
   • Consider bump steer correction tie rod ends to bring the tie rod angle back to a more neutral position.
4. Check Axle Alignment & Bushings
   • Ensure axles are as level as possible and inspect control arm and motor mount bushings. Upgraded or stiffer bushings can help reduce unwanted movement.
5. Consider a Limited-Slip Differential (LSD)
   • If your Fiesta ST doesn’t have one, an LSD like the Quaife or Wavetrac can help distribute power more evenly between the front wheels, mitigating torque steer.
6. Check Tire Pressure & Alignment
   • Uneven tire pressure or an alignment that’s off can worsen torque steer. Make sure both front tires are at equal PSI and check for uneven wear.

Would you like recommendations on specific parts to help correct these issues?


You said:
Does lowering impact toe?

ChatGPT said:
Yes, lowering your car does impact toe settings, often in a way that can contribute to handling issues like torque steer. Here’s how:
How Lowering Affects Toe:

1. Front Toe Changes (Typically Toe-Out)
   • When you lower your Fiesta ST, the tie rods angle upward more than before (assuming stock tie rod ends). This typically causes toe-out, meaning the front wheels point slightly outward relative to the centerline of the car.
   • Toe-out can make the car feel more darty, unstable under acceleration, and more prone to torque steer, especially on a front-wheel-drive car.
2. Rear Toe Changes (Depends on Suspension Design)
   • The rear suspension on the Fiesta ST is a torsion beam, meaning lowering has less of an impact compared to a multi-link setup. However, excessive lowering can still introduce slight toe changes that affect stability.

How to Fix It:

• Get an alignment after lowering
  • You’ll likely need to bring the front toe back to factory spec (or slightly toe-in for better stability).
• Consider adjustable tie rod ends
  • If toe-out is excessive due to bump steer, adjustable tie rod ends or bump steer correction kits can help restore proper geometry.

If you haven’t gotten an alignment after lowering, that should be your first step to addressing the increased torque steer. Have you noticed any changes in steering feel or tramlining (following road imperfections more aggressively)?


You said:
Yes it does feel quite darty.

ChatGPT said:
That dartiness is likely from excessive toe-out caused by lowering. Toe-out makes the car feel twitchy and more sensitive to road imperfections, which can also contribute to torque steer since the front wheels are not aligned optimally under power.
How to Fix the Dartiness & Torque Steer:

1. Get a Proper Alignment
   • The first step is to check and adjust your toe settings. After lowering, your Fiesta ST may have too much toe-out.
   • Recommended front alignment settings for better stability:
     • Toe: 0 to slight toe-in (~0.05° total toe-in)
     • Camber: -1.5° to -2.0° (depends on driving style)
     • Caster: Keep stock (non-adjustable without aftermarket parts)
2. Bump Steer Correction Kit (Optional but Helpful)
   • Since lowering changes tie rod angles, a bump steer correction kit (adjustable tie rod ends) can bring them back closer to stock geometry, reducing unwanted steering inputs over bumps.
3. Check Tire Pressures
   • Uneven or overly high front tire pressures can worsen dartiness. Try running 34-36 PSI in the front and 32-34 PSI in the rear to balance the feel.
4. Inspect Control Arm & Steering Rack Bushings
   • Worn or soft rubber bushings can allow unwanted movement, making torque steer worse. If your Fiesta ST has high mileage, consider upgraded polyurethane control arm bushings or a steering rack mount bushing to tighten things up.

Next Steps:

• Schedule a full alignment ASAP, making sure they correct any toe-out.
• If the car still feels unstable, consider a bump steer kit and possibly firmer bushings.

Once you get the alignment sorted, you should notice a big improvement in stability and a reduction in torque steer. Let me know if you want recommendations for specific alignment specs or parts!


You said:
What is the difference between bump steer and toe angle changes from the lowering springs? Are they one in the same?

ChatGPT said:
Bump steer and toe angle changes from lowering are related but not exactly the same. Here’s how they differ:
1. Toe Angle Changes from Lowering (Static Toe Change)

• When you lower your car, the suspension arms and tie rods change their resting positions.
• This usually results in a change in static toe (the toe angle when the car is sitting still).
• For most front-wheel-drive cars like your Fiesta ST, lowering tends to cause toe-out at the front, making the car feel twitchy and more prone to torque steer.
• This is a one-time adjustment issue that can be corrected with an alignment.

2. Bump Steer (Dynamic Toe Change While Driving)

• Bump steer happens when the wheels change toe angle dynamically as the suspension moves up and down.
• Lowering the car changes the angles of the control arms and tie rods, which can make the tie rods move in a way that causes unwanted toe-in or toe-out as the wheels go over bumps.
• If bump steer is excessive, you’ll feel the steering react to road imperfections (like the car “steering itself” over bumps).
• This cannot be fixed with a normal alignment because it’s a geometry issue. The best fix is a bump steer correction kit (adjustable tie rod ends that correct the tie rod angle).

How They Are Related:

• Lowering changes both static toe and increases the likelihood of bump steer because it alters suspension geometry.
• If your car feels twitchy all the time, static toe-out from lowering is the bigger issue (fixed with alignment).
• If the steering is unpredictable over bumps, bump steer is likely the problem (fixed with a bump steer correction kit).

Since you described the car as "darty," I’d start with an alignment first. If you still notice erratic steering over bumps, then a bump steer correction kit would be the next step. Let me know if you want recommendations for specific parts!


You said:
This is unbelievably helpful

ChatGPT said:
Glad to hear that! Suspension geometry can be tricky, but once you dial it in, your Fiesta ST will feel way more planted and predictable.
If you get the alignment done and still feel some instability, let me know—I can help fine-tune settings or recommend parts to get everything spot on. Hope the car feels great after the tweaks!


You said:
Do you think it’s fairly unlikely that the increased negative camber is causing the torque steer and darty feeling? And much more likely a toe/bump steer issue?

ChatGPT said:
Great question! While increased negative camber can have some effect, it’s far less likely to be the primary cause of your torque steer and darty feeling compared to toe and bump steer issues.
Why Camber Isn’t the Main Problem:

1. Negative Camber Helps Stability, Not Hurts It
   • More negative camber generally improves cornering grip and stability rather than making the car darty.
   • Extreme negative camber (like -3° or more) could make straight-line tracking a bit more sensitive, but a ~1" drop typically results in around -1.5° to -2.0° camber, which is still reasonable for street driving.
2. Torque Steer is Mostly Due to Axle & Toe Angle Issues
   • Unequal axle angles from lowering combined with toe-out will amplify torque steer much more than camber.
   • Camber mainly affects lateral grip, while torque steer is more about power distribution and suspension geometry (caster, toe, and axle angles).
3. Toe Has a Much Bigger Impact on Steering Feel
   • Excessive toe-out makes the car feel unstable and darty, while too much toe-in can make the steering feel sluggish.
   • Since lowering tends to introduce toe-out, this is likely the culprit.
4. Bump Steer Adds to Instability
   • If the toe angle changes dynamically as the suspension moves, it will make the car feel twitchy over bumps and road imperfections, reinforcing that "darty" feeling.

Verdict?

• Your toe settings (likely too much toe-out) are the primary cause of instability.
• Bump steer could be worsening it, especially if you notice erratic steering over uneven roads.
• Negative camber is a minimal contributor, and unless it’s extreme, it’s probably not the issue.

Action Plan:

1. Get an alignment ASAP and bring the toe closer to zero or slight toe-in (~0.05° total toe-in).
2. If the problem persists, consider a bump steer correction kit.
3. If needed, fine-tune camber to ~-1.5° to -2.0° if you’re getting uneven tire wear.

Once the alignment is dialed in, I’m confident the car will feel much more stable. Let me know how it goes!


You said:
Do you have any recommended parts to install before having the alignment done?

ChatGPT said:
Yes! If you want to correct geometry issues before getting the alignment, I’d recommend addressing bump steer and front lower control arm bushings first. That way, the alignment will be done with all the key components already installed. Here’s what I suggest:
1. Bump Steer Correction Kit (Highly Recommended)

• Since lowering affects tie rod angles, a bump steer correction kit helps restore proper steering geometry and reduces unwanted toe changes over bumps.
• Recommended Kit:
  • PumaSpeed Adjustable Tie Rod Ends
  • SuperPro Adjustable Tie Rod Ends
  • Hardrace Bump Steer Kit
  • Steeda Bump Steer Kit (if available for the Fiesta ST)
• These kits come with adjustable tie rod ends that lower the outer tie rod attachment point, correcting its angle.

2. Front Lower Control Arm Bushings (Optional, but Helps)

• Upgrading to polyurethane or spherical bushings reduces deflection in the front suspension, improving steering feel and stability.
• Recommended Brands:
  • Powerflex Front Control Arm Bushings
  • SuperPro Polyurethane Bushings
  • Whiteline Anti-Lift Kit (adds caster for better straight-line stability, reduces torque steer)

3. Rear Torsion Beam Bushings (Optional)

• Helps with rear-end stability, reducing excessive toe changes in the rear.
• Recommended Brands:
  • Powerflex Rear Beam Bushings
  • Whiteline Rear Beam Bushing Kit

Final Steps:

1. Install the bump steer kit and any bushings you choose.
2. Get the alignment done after these parts are in place.
3. Enjoy a more stable, planted ride with less torque steer and dartiness!

If you want specific alignment specs after installing these parts, let me know!


You said:
I’ve read that gusset traction bars help a lot with torque steer. Do you think that’s true, or placebo effect?

ChatGPT said:
Gusset-style traction bars (like the Pierce Motorsports setup for the Fiesta ST) do help reduce torque steer, but they’re not a magic bullet. The effectiveness depends on how much flex your front suspension and subframe currently have. Here’s what’s happening:
How Traction Bars Reduce Torque Steer

1. They Reduce Subframe Flex
   • Under hard acceleration, the front subframe and control arms flex slightly, which can cause uneven power delivery to the front wheels, amplifying torque steer.
   • A gusset traction bar system reinforces the subframe, reducing movement and keeping the suspension geometry more consistent.
2. They Keep the Control Arms More Stable
   • Torque steer happens when the front wheels experience uneven force due to suspension deflection.
   • By bracing the control arm mounting points, traction bars reduce unwanted movement, keeping both wheels aligned under power.
3. Better Steering Feel & Front-End Stability
   • Some users report a sharper turn-in and more planted feel, especially under braking and acceleration.

Placebo or Legit?
Not placebo, but the effectiveness depends on other suspension mods:

• If your subframe and bushings are already stiff (polyurethane bushings, lower brace installed), the improvement from traction bars will be less noticeable.
• If your Fiesta ST is mostly stock aside from lowering springs, traction bars can make a more noticeable difference.

Would I Recommend Traction Bars?
✅ Yes, if you:

• Want to further reduce torque steer beyond fixing toe/bump steer.
• Plan to track or aggressively drive the car.
• Want sharper steering response with less front-end flex.

🔹 Best Traction Bars for the Fiesta ST:

• Pierce Motorsports 2-Point or 4-Point Traction Bar Kit (most popular, proven results).
• TB Performance Traction Bar (another solid option).

Final Thoughts

• Alignment and bump steer correction should be your first priority.
• If you still want more front-end stiffness after that, traction bars will help.
• It’s not a pure placebo, but its effectiveness depends on your existing mods.

Would you be installing them yourself or having a shop do it?


You said:
If I eventually get a traction bar, do you think the 2 point is sufficient?

ChatGPT said:
Yes, for most applications, the 2-point traction bar is sufficient and offers the best balance of performance, cost, and ease of installation.
Why the 2-Point Bar is Usually Enough:

1. Reduces Subframe Flex Where It Matters Most
   • The 2-point bar connects the lower control arm mounting points, which is the main area that flexes under torque steer.
   • This alone provides a noticeable improvement in front-end stability and power delivery.
2. Easier Installation & Less NVH
   • The 2-point design is simpler to install compared to the 4-point version, which also connects to the rear of the subframe.
   • The 4-point bar can introduce more noise, vibration, and harshness (NVH), which might not be ideal for a daily driver.
3. More Clearance & Less Interference
   • Some 4-point bars can interfere with exhaust components or make future service work more difficult.
   • The 2-point bar avoids these issues while still giving you most of the benefits.

When to Consider the 4-Point Bar:

• If you’re tracking the car regularly and want the absolute stiffest front end possible.
• If you’ve already done polyurethane bushings, bump steer correction, and an LSD, and you still want to reduce flex further.
• If you don’t mind slightly more NVH and a more involved install.

Verdict?
For daily driving, spirited driving, and occasional track use, the 2-point traction bar is the best choice—it gives you 80-90% of the benefit with fewer downsides. If you eventually go all-in on handling mods, you could always upgrade to the 4-point later.
Would you want recommendations on where to buy one, or are you set on a brand?